Lit Discussing Vima Sunrider and where she hid during the Dark Wars

I'm resurrecting this thread because there is a new possibility I want to discuss regarding the whereabouts of Vima Sunrider following the Mandalorian Wars.

Recently it surfaced that there was some cut material from the KOTOR Campaign Guide wherein the Jedi Exile was linked to the Sunriders, being Nomi Sunrider's second daughter and Vima Sunrider's half-sister. I learned this right around the time when I began thinking deeper about the world behind the two KOTORs, which is still remarkably scant on details.

While this idea is charming for someone like me who enjoys the familial ties between our main characters, I'm thinking that the connection between the Sunriders and KOTOR II might be even stronger than a half-sister. Is there any reason to believe that the Jedi Exile is not herself Vima Sunrider?

First the ages: Vima was born in 4000BBY and therefore would have been 49 in 3951BBY; the Exile is certainly middle-aged, though I think that 49 is a little too high; other sources confirm she was 10 years Bastila's senior, and Bastila was definitely in her early-mid 20s in the first game, not her late 30s. Still, we can work with this.

The politics also stand out. Nomi Sunrider was presumably still Jedi Grandmaster by 3964BBY when the Mandalorian Wars became a full blown conflict, and she did not allow the Jedi to be drawn into the conflict. Vima Sunrider going to fight with Revan and Malak is fitting of her character and it also makes for good dramatic tension if the family was split across what to do about the war.

What about her name? Well, it's not as though Jedi are averse to assuming aliases when they go into exile... "Meetra Surik" is just the name she went by afterwards, so as not to sully the esteemed Sunrider lineage whose Jedi status stretched back to her great-grandfather Jev.

I think there's another possibility for Vima to be present in the events of the game, though. What if Vima assumed another title, not of the Exile but one following her master: what if Vima Sunrider is Darth Traya?

Now this is quite a twist but hear me out: Kreia was designed to look only about 50 years old, which with Vima's age of 49 checks out near-perfectly. Vima Sunrider was trained by and had sympathy for Ulic Qel-Droma, former Dark Lord of the Sith, and she wielded a green lightsaber just like Kreia. Vima is conspicuously absent from canonical records of the Mandalorian War, just like Kreia--off chasing Sith secrets? Plus, it would mean that Vima was Revan's Jedi (and perhaps Sith) Master, which in a way does connect Darth Revan to the Sunrider lineage and legacy.

"But wait, isn't Kreia supposed to be Arren Kae?" Well, not officially. It was never confirmed in a canonical source, but it's a great idea. I'm not even sure it's completely incompatible; Arren Kae is not a character unto herself, but a note in the backstories of Brianna and Revan. Very malleable, in my opinion. If Vima Sunrider and Kreia were the same person, then Vima also in a way becomes the parallel to Darth Sidious for this whole KOTOR era; born under auspicious circumstances, lurking in the shadows, giving rise to Dark Lords, manipulating everyone towards a final goal.

This idea isn't even fully incompatible with the idea that Vima and Meetra were half-sisters. Kreia's unusual love and admiration for the Exile, their immediate Force bond, and Kreia's possessiveness over the Exile and her actions and companions just scream an unusually deep connection between these characters. And since when has retconned family ties between heroes and villains not been in vogue for Star Wars?

Of course, this is just one idea, and admittedly the KOTOR Campaign Guide as it was published blatantly contradicts both versions because the Exile is established to have been the padawan of Vima. But still, it's something I wanted to bring up because either way the implications are a little radical.

 

For me Mara Jade is the Granddaughter of Vima-Da-Boda from Dark Empire and the Daughter of Neema-Da-Boda so for me Mara Jade is a Descendant of Nomi Sunrider Palpatine already had a Descendant of a Tales of the Jedi Character in his Power before Sedriss QL was a Descendant of Ulic Qel-Droma maybe Palpatine stole Mara Jade from Vima-Da-Boda

It seems that the Sunriders were still active during the Mandalorian Wars since according to Wookieepedia Vima Sunrider was Tutor of the Exile

 

Oh those Sunriders...

By now everyone could be a Sunrider... Revan, Bastila, Mira, Exile, Kreia/Traya, etc. it'd be the Skywalker Family War all over again. At least Zayne Carrick is not related to them yet.
I think we need to consider what is best for Vima's character as well as how did the Sunrider lineage connect to Old Vima da Boda later?
Regarding cut or unreleased content, it is nice to see new intel surface even if some of it is overruled already sadly. But what we so far lack is MANDORLA and what would have happened in there to connect Sunriders to Mando Wars and KOTOR era! I think that would be key.

The Grizmalt-Naboo connection is a good line to reach down to the future eras and relatives, so how do we keep this, as well as build and draw from all alternatives?
Nomi changing her name back to her maiden name we already knew, her remarrying or at least having another daughter is big news indeed.

So, Vima Sunrider was the Jedi Master of Meetra Surik and basically trained her younger half-sister? That'd put her at odds when Meetra ran off with Revan rather than following her Master. Was Vima in the same camp as her mother though? Did they disagree? Did Vima follow her younger sis, out of conviction or to protect her within Revan's forces?
And why was Nomi absent from most of the Mandalorian Wars content? Offscreen Grandmaster, on Council, or no longer?
Again, I think Mandorla would be key to give us hints. As it was to be a teambuilding adventure for Mom and daughter Vima AFTER Ulic trained her, they rather did not continue their differences from earlier I suppose.

Anyway, Meetra is not known to have had any children. So Vima has to continue the lineage most likely somewhere.

Unless Mira is a Sunrider too somehow... or we are back to Bastila Shan being a Sunrider and her lineage returning to old family names after TOR MMO.

 

You know, a couple years back when I began my timeline I did try to contact Alex Irvine. Unfortunately, the email address I found was no longer in service. And besides, I don't think he would just hand a partially-completed manuscript from more than 10 years ago to a random fan bothering him.

I'm beginning to have a creeping feeling that Nomi must have perished before the Mandalorian War... she wasn't present around 3960BBY when the Exile was, you know, exiled, and if she had died in any circumstance directly relating to the Mandalorian War then surely the Jedi would have entered as a whole in reaction to their Grandmaster's death. In fact, perhaps it was her death that split the Jedi into its two factions and led to Revan going into war.

Vima on the other hand must have at least been absent for the Jedi Civil War. Otherwise, where was she to rally the troops in battle meditation against Bastila's own battle meditation at the Star Forge? Surely the older and more experienced Jedi would have been capable of overcoming the newly-turned and traumatized Sith, right?

Right now I'm leaning towards my Vima-is-Exile theory, and I haven't completely abandoned the idea that the two Vimas are one and the same theory either.

Can't be Mira I don't think, we return back to the problem of her father. If Vima/Meetra did continue the lineage (a lineage conspicuously absent 300 years later during the war against the True Sith), then there are two obvious choices for a suitor and three less likely choices.

• Atton Rand: Hopeless romantic, fool, and one of her Lost Jedi. I always took this to be the most likely option for the Exile's romance options.
• Mical: the Exile's legitimate padawan and successor as Jedi Grandmaster, it would seem. Less likely, but Masters training their spouses as padawans was still a tradition in this century.
• Bao-Dur: I don't think you could romance him and the known Sunrider descendants didn't have horns, right? But they do have that shared trauma at Malachor V.
• Canderous Ordo: And like Bao-Dur, none of the known Sunrider descendants were Mandalorians. Nor could you romance him, if anything I think the hint is that him and Visas Marr were going to become something.
• Darth Sion: Known to obsess over the Exile to the point of falling in love with her which ends up being his undoing. Hard to say what his, um, soft tissue looks like given the rest of him... but still, a male in the Exile's life.

 

Sadly Bastila Shan cant be Vima Sunrider Vima was Older than the Exile and she was her Tutor or Master and i think in the Revan Novel it is implied that Bastila is Younger than the Exile and Revan i prefer Bastila Shan not having a great lineage although during SWTOR Era the Shan/Revan Family is already an important lineage during that Era now with Mara Jade i prefer her to be an Sunrider since i think Mara is very similar to Nomi Sunrider i think it is more likely that Mara Jade is a Possible Descendant of Nomi Sunrider than Bastila Shan the Sunriders Clan must have survived the Jedi Purge of Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus since Vima-Da-Boda is a Descendant of Nomi Sunrider during the New Republic Era

 

@Golbolco

Nomi died during the war if she did due to wotc adventure having her fight against Mandos in the Onderon Cutoff! However how her Grandmaster status and Council decisions connect to it as discussed earlier is complicated yet not impossible..

While at first I was a bit surprised by the cut kotor guide revelations, yet welcoming new intel, I think ultimately reconsiling it all including dark side shenangians is an interesting option, as a too whitewashed fate for all is not optimal either. Considering Revan's brainwashed Jedi/Sith double persona, as well as Exile's storied past and being torn between light and dark sides not unlike Kylo Ren later, a similiar twist within the family for Kreia/Traya/Arren or else may be possible, though needs to be handled well and woven in befitting all other versions as to not feel forced in.

Though given Vima's holy status in Grizzmaltian lore... and her paralells to Allana's story-fate in later Legends I doubt she had a dark alter ego. Yet the potential for one certainly. So what if this potential manifested in other ways? Not in a fallen Vima, but a dark clone, or leaving clones for later eras, other dark versions of a character in this more magical age? Just look how Kreia/Traya-Exiles bond seemed to be a likewise externalisation of one's Dark Side before one has to reintegrate the shadow to use TCW words.

Could Nomi have fallen during the Mando Wars after she initially fought in it? And her fall or loss to unknown fate made the Jedi abandon any involvement? I doubt any dark legacy for Nomi works as historians would have recorded that or kept her not in high regard afterwards, unless the Jedi Order kept that secret!!!


Back when I played KOTOR, I chose female Revan and played her as if he was Vima. With male Exile choice for Kotor 2. Still my most fav headcanon in that way despite the Legends canonical choices settled on later for both.

But it begins to feel now as if we are getting KOTOR history through the fuzzy memory of Killik Joiners... everyone and their mother was Vima lol!

 

That would be a lot of greats.

 

Yet.

I almost like that idea, but it raises a lot of questions. Who would Meetra's father be? Ulic? Because the timelines for that really do not add up. (Not to mention if you buy a different idea mentioned in some of the same sources, that would make the Exile and Revan half-siblings).

Honestly, it would be cleaner if we said that Meetra and Vima were full-sisters. It's not entirely clear how long Nomi trained with Thon, so if we say that Nomi was pregnant when Andur died, and then the events of the comic took place over six or so weeks, and then she stayed there for about a year before going off to Onderon, we could provide Vima with a sister without too many logistical difficulties.

Ok, that's a novel idea. It retroactively wrecks on of my favorite comics ever (TOTJ Redemption #5), but it definitely makes sense in some ways.

I like the idea of Mara not being related to anyone. On the other hand, I could totally see Palpatine being descended from her, if only because after almost 4,000 years, the entire Naboo aristocracy would have her blood flowing through their veins. Or what was left of it after almost 4,000 years.

If not for the Revan novel, I would say that her and Atton could have a kid, but as it is I think if we wanted to continue the family line through her, we would need to say she had a kid in the interlude between the Mandalorian Wars and KOTOR II, when she was in exile.

That is cursed beyond what the English language has words to describe. The one good aspect is that I think Kreia might literally explode.

I think Nomi sensed a Dark presence behind the Mandalorian War and went out to find it. And then didn't return for a long time, which only fueled the Council's paranoia. She showed up towards the end of the war, and won the Second Battle of Onderon for the Republic (a politically inconvenient fact for both sides of the intra-Jedi dispute), but by that time the war was basically over.

Regarding Vima, I like the idea that she was Bastilla's master and as such was with her on the mission to capture Revan, but the injuries from Malak's attack of Revan's ship took her out of commission for the duration of the Jedi Civil War.

 

Well... it kinda feels like the Skywalker Dynasty all over again...

Shmi / Nomi has a kid but there is no father (anymore)
Vima becomes a Chosen One, trains under a Sith.. like Anakin kinda.
But where Anakin falls, Vima avoids to become a female Revan (ha!) yet another takes up the mantle of this Dark Man in her stead.
Nomi probably died giving birth to Vima's sister Meetra.. who she later trained amongst other Masters as she already had her own Padawan in Bastila Shan.
When Vima gets pregnant and takes care of Grizzmalt and its Legacy becoming a spiritual Mother (much like the Throne of Balance Fate for Allana Djo Solo later!) and may or may not marry into Royalty, her apprentices take care of Revan, one to join him (her sister Meetra) and one to oppose him, her Padawan Bastila. (Dyad vibes)
Ultimately Revan is defeated, redeemed and marries Bastila who had a brief dark stint herself. Meetra struggles as Jedi Exile and ultimately will return to look for Revan and rejoin his ongoing mission after her own redemption and ordeal against the Sith Triumvirate, looking for further True Sith threats after reestablishing the Jedi Order. (like Luke did in canons post ROTJ)
The entire Sith Triumvirate and repeating roles (always a Darth Traya) is remniscient of Mortis Thrones and seating new people on them as in the Abeloth / Mortis Knights Quest. With certainly Kreia/Vergere vibes and the True Sith lurking as an enemy to unite both Jedi and Sith against them, much like OneSith and NewJedi did against Abeloth.

But there come even more paralells...
IF several Naboo lineages are of Sunrider descent, we could have both Palpatine and Naberries share that root.
Naberries marry into Skywalkers with or without Palpatine-Shmi shenangians.
Palpatine flirts Taa chume of Hapes and may or may not have fathered Isolder, whose daughter Tenel Ka may marry into the Skywalker-Solo line, cue Allana Djo Solo. And if any da Boda's were involved in Allya's band of misfits re-founding the Dathomir Witches... Tenel Ka has even more Sunrider Blood in her lineage.

So the lineage that diversified... converges at the end again to bring forth a new Chosen One. Allana. Much like the Skywalker-Solo lines in the Legacy era almost had Cade hook up with Marasiah in a miscolored Darkhorse panel hehe.

But I am not done yet!

Renatasia gives us Natasi Daala. But as per Disney canon, Ederlathh (or is it Ederlatth) Natasias Pallopides, a relative of Palpatine as his grandniece or so she claimed as per Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire. Why Natasias? Why turn her Daala-esque? Or tie her to Renatasia? Authorial intent? Aside making me smile that is lol.
What if... Ederlatth/Ederlathh Natasias Pallopides is actually from Renatasia?
What if furthermore... Ederlaath/Ederlathh Natasias Pallopides is in fact Natasi Daala herself from Legends?

Let me explain:
Natasi/Natasias is an anagram for Anastasia, the russian princess that got lost when a coup took her family off the throne and who reclaimed her origin later on (Anastasia Romanov). Now with such a name and backstory to it... wait, didn't I read that before somewhere?

Natasi Daala's early life and origin as per Wook:

Natasi Daala is Ederlaath Natasias Pallopides, a relative of the royal Palpatine bloodline, whose princely family got taken from their birthright when their enemies from a rival family attacked and slaughtered them. (Reminds me of Palpatine slaughtering all his immediate family... and maybe later having his extended family dealt with likewise?) But Ederlaath survived under the name Natasi Daala, raised by Renatasian Nuns. In Legends she became an Imperial protegé of Tarkin, and more, and ultimately Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance! In Disney canon, she claimed the Imperial Throne but failed... like her Legends counterpart.
While Irmenu and Renatasia are not close (O-6 and U-8 on the map), the royal family could have been slaughtered anywhere and not neccessarily at home.

Long story short... if Daala/Ederlath etc. are also Sunrider descendants... we have a big family feud over millennia and their bloodlines intermingling within the extended family all over and over much like real life medieval royalty. We just need to connect it backwards to the Daragons (the GFFA Pendragon analogue).

And now I want a OneCanon story about Daala coming out as being Ederlatth.. hehe.


And yes Mara Jade could tie into any of these Sunrider-lines, as could her clone-twin Shira... as well as some other candidates. Vima truly became MOTHER VIMA / MOTHER SUNRIDER... the Allmother


PS PS PS: Meanwhile I still puzzle Ashka Boda, Ros Lai, the Dark Woman and others into the tapestry.

Latest Etymological Quest revealed that Eslinore den Tasia, name of the Grizzmaltian Queen stems from danish Helsingor meaning narrow or someone guarding a narrow entryway/gateway like a castle did to the narrow ocean strait between North Sea and Baltic Sea.

Vima being involved with a Throne of Balance-esque Quest on Grizzmalt to becoem Mother Vima seems even more interesting considering it may involve guarding a treshold to hold back the darkness... a gateway? To the World between Worlds? To the True Sith or any other Hell?

While Tasia is a short form for Anastasia aka Natasia(s), real world etymology reveals Tasia translates to "resurrection"!!!

Thus Elsinore den Tasia... guards a narrow gateway involved in resurrection, eh? WBW vibes increase!

 

Side Question: How did the idea that Mara and Shira were twins get into our collective minds?

I mean given the thousand-year time jump between the Daragons and the Sunriders, pretty much all that's necessary to suppose is that Jori met Bob the Jedi or whomever and had a kid, and that either that kid or one of the kid's kids (etc.) travelled offworld.