Discussion: Has Chivalry and Virtue Died?

I woukldn't have any problem with a woman opening the door for me ( Though i might be a bit suprised at it) so why should you?

You want to be treated equally? The only thing to be equal to here is men. There is no third party. In that case, get ready for a lot of name calling and shoving, because that's how we treat each other.

These two comments are what I was more or less getting at. The fact that chivalry means being extremely nice to women and not men is precisely why it is dying. Why can't chivalry mean being nice to everyone? Why can't it mean that women should go the extra mile to help someone out as well? Why can't it mean that men are polite and help one another out?

Why should you be surprised that we're treating you as nicely as you want us to treat you? Isn't that a bit backwards? You're annoyed that we don't want special treatment, yet you don't want it for yourself?

Personally, I wish everyone wanted to be more polite to each other, regardless of equality, gender, expectations, or whatever. I would love to see a new type of chivalry around that emphasizes holding the door open for whoever happens to be behind you, or giving up your seat to the person (not the female) that seems to need it the most.

 

The stereotype of what? Being female?

The stereotype of staying in the home and cooking, cleaning, and raising children while the men go out and work to provide all the money.

 

Chivalry is dead?

Maybe.

I've been cussed out for holding a door open for a girl at school. She said, "You're just trying to put me down, put me in my place, like I can't open the door for myself."

Gee, that makes me want to be nice again.

You want someone to blame for the end of chivalry, blame the rabid feminists.

 

You want someone to blame for the end of chivalry, blame the rabid feminists.

Yeah, stupid rabid feminists... now we can vote and hold jobs, but who will open the door for us??

 

Yeah, stupid rabid feminists... now we can vote and hold jobs, but who will open the door for us??



True. Chivalry isn't dead, it's just really low. But chivalry as it was can't survive anyway. It was based on a society we no longer are. Everything has changed, including the role women play.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be chivalrous, just change what chivalry means. Essentially, it's being nice and respectful to everyone regardless of gender. I'm a female and I hold the door open when the situation calls for it for a guy. Usually they're pretty appreciative. There are also a lot of guys who hold the door open for me. And I say thank you. Sadly few girls seem to be aware that I may be behind them and that there is no harm in holding open the door a bit for the person behind you.

 

You want someone to blame for the end of chivalry, blame the rabid feminists.

I agree. It's not feminism per se - of course equal treatment in many ways is desirable (why should someone get paid differently for the same work?) - but rabid feminism that has contributed to the decline of chivalry.

Had to speak up here as a woman who very much appreciates chivalry from guys Of course if someone behind me has their hands full and I've got the door, I'll be polite and hold it. But I just think it's nice if men hold the door for women, or give up a seat, or arrange details of meetings, and so forth. I've never seen that as condescending or implying that I'm an invalid. Goodness, why get so defensive? I think it's sweet.

And you know what? I can think that and still go to a top-20 university, go to law school and become a lawyer, and eventually get a good job.

 

Yeah, stupid rabid feminists... now we can vote and hold jobs, but who will open the door for us??

You see what I mean? You assume that because I am polite and wish for chivalry to continue that I'm trying to put you down somehow.



EDIT: I agree. It's not feminism per se - of course equal treatment in many ways is desirable (why should someone get paid differently for the same work?) - but rabid feminism that has contributed to the decline of chivalry.

Thank you. My best friend up at college is a feminist, but she recognizes courtousy when she sees it. It's when it's taken too far that feminism hurts things.

 

You obviously need to get your priorities straight, womberty.

Whether it's perceived as such by the men who practice it or not, chivalry is a form of sexism. Its ends, which are supposedly "being nice" to women, aren't justified by the fact that it stems from a belief that women should be or need to be helped in the living of their everyday lives. It could have been argued at some point that restricting blacks' rights to join the army, for example, was indirectly helping them because it was decreasing the chance they would die on the front line, but that wouldn't have made the practice less racist.

 

You see what I mean? You assume that because I am polite and wish for chivalry to continue that I'm trying to put you down somehow.

Not really, but the reason we had "rabid feminists" is because we were in a society that held women down for so long that some of us went mad.

It's not a bad thing if I ask for equality, is it?

And like I said before, I don't mind being put on a pedestal, but if I have to choose, I'll take freedom and equality any day.

 

It's not a bad thing if I ask for equality, is it?

Not at all.

And I show my appreciation of equality by being kind to everyone.

 

My best friend up at college is a feminist, but she recognizes courtousy when she sees it.

Please define courtesy and how different treatment for members of different genders is part of it. Having been told so by your parents or others doesn't justify stating it without proof.

 

It's less about weakness and more about worthiness. I personally think that women ARE worthy of respect and deference. Even if that's not true, a society in which men DO think that is probably a better society for women.

I completely agree with Bubba on this point (and Scarlet too! )

Thank you. My best friend up at college is a feminist, but she recognizes courtousy when she sees it. It's when it's taken too far that feminism hurts things.

No problem, JFT. I actually broke up with a boyfriend at the beginning of college several years back essentially because he was more of a "rabid feminist" than I was (!) I couldn't convince him (as an abstract idea; he was courteous with me generally) that holding doors for women and treating women with respectful courtesy was a good thing, instead of reinforcing patriarchal notions of feminine incapacity and so forth. I couldn't figure out why he didn't believe me that I didn't feel demeaned - I mean, wasn't I the one who was in the best position to say so?

 

Please define courtesy and how different treatment for members of different genders is part of it. Having been told so by your parents or others doesn't justify stating it without proof.

The definition of courtesy (finally glad to have the correct spelling)?

That's a tough one. I guess it's putting everyone else first. I hold open doors, carry packages, help clean up, etc. because I feel like helping out. I'm just becoming somewhat cynical of helping others when I'm attacked for it.

 

And I show my appreciation of equality by being kind to everyone.

And that kind of courtesy I appreciate. I appreciate it when anyone - male or female - realizes that I am entering a building behind them and holds the door open for me to enter. I usually extend the same courtesy to anyone - male or female - and am inclined to make extra effort if the person entering has difficulty walking, is pushing a stroller, etc.

That's very different, however, from a chivalrous attitude that prompts a man to rush in front of me to ensure that I am not required to open the door for myself. That's not courtesy; it's what I think of when you say "chivalry" and it's insulting.

 

That's not courtesy; it's what I think of when you say "chivalry" and it's insulting.

I just don't understand why you would think that's insulting. Why get defensive? Why not just smile and say thank you?

 

You wanna know what's really killing chivalry, it's that technological deviltry known as the automatic sliding door

 

Chivalry is outdated.

If women are to be treated as equals, they must be equal in every way. No lowered standards.

Which means if a guy slaps me in the face, that's a scrap. If a woman slaps me in the face, that's a scrap. This is not an endorsment of spousal abuse. There is a difference between defending yourself and arbitrarily abusing someone you're supposed to love.

Now, I might be 'chivalrous' to my significant other. I might hold doors and pull out chairs and other such things. But I do that regardless of gender. I'd be just as quick to let a boyfriend wear my coat as a girlfriend.

But let me tell you this. All this dainty stuff is bs. There's nothing sexier than a girl who's willing to fight a guy and not rely on a man to defend her.

 

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be chivalrous, just change what chivalry means. Essentially, it's being nice and respectful to everyone regardless of gender. I'm a female and I hold the door open when the situation calls for it for a guy. Usually they're pretty appreciative. There are also a lot of guys who hold the door open for me. And I say thank you. Sadly few girls seem to be aware that I may be behind them and that there is no harm in holding open the door a bit for the person behind you.

Thank you FlamingSword! This is exactly what I have been trying to say.

 

If women are to be treated as equals, they must be equal in every way. No lowered standards

in what context to you mean equal? do you mean equal as in a simaler standing or as in exactly the same?

if it is the latter then i dont think that is acceptable. just becuase you have the same basic equality and oportunity does not mean you have to treat men and women the same way.

just becuase i am polite and hold a door for a girl at school does not mean i think any less of her. it does not mean i have lower standerds for her. it simply means that i am being nice to her, not because i know her or because i am hitting on her, simply because i know how people feel when others do things nice and polite for them. i will hold a door for a guy or girl ahead or behind me.

maybe this MTV politically correct time we have grown up in makes it so we cannot recognize when people are polite. because every time you are told about guys they tell you that every one of them would rape you if you had the chance. because every sex ed class tell us that men see women as meat and nothing more, and a man being polite is just them trying to get a women in bed.

why cant people take it as it is, being polite and kind to your fellow person in the hopes that they would do the same for you.

 

"That's very different, however, from a chivalrous attitude that prompts a man to rush in front of me to ensure that I am not required to open the door for myself. That's not courtesy; it's what I think of when you say "chivalry" and it's insulting."

Geez, if a guy wants to open the door for you wat's the big deal? How bout if you took turns opening the door for each other. He gets even numbered days and you get odd numbered days. What's the big deal? And hell maybe he does like you and that's why he's opening the door for you. How lovely would that be if some guy thought you were great, opened a door for you and had almost summoned up the courage he needed to ask you to lunch and bam, you rip into him for opening the door? That just sucks.

 

"in what context to you mean equal? do you mean equal as in a simaler standing or as in exactly the same?"

Actually I was refering more to the lower standards of training women are required to meet in the armed forces, fire departments, etc.

"because every sex ed class tell us that men see women as meat and nothing more"

Actually most sex ed classes I've seen pretty much consist of "Don't have sex! Look at these gross pictures!".

Why be any more polite to females than males? Just be polite to everyone.

 

Actually most sex ed classes I've seen pretty much consist of "Don't have sex! Look at these gross pictures!".

i remember that, but i also remember the lecture we had in 5th grade that told us exactly what i said in a few more words.

Actually I was refering more to the lower standards of training women are required to meet in the armed forces, fire departments, etc

i saw a vidio made by the LA fire department when women where going through the same courses men where, and the women who had the smae trianing just could not keep up.


what can i say though, i try to be polite to everyone, i just like being polite to ladies more. is there anything wrong with that? (minor sarcazim)

 

Geez, if a guy wants to open the door for you wat's the big deal? How bout if you took turns opening the door for each other. He gets even numbered days and you get odd numbered days.

How about whoever was going to get to the door first holds it for the person behind them?


How lovely would that be if some guy thought you were great, opened a door for you and had almost summoned up the courage he needed to ask you to lunch and bam, you rip into him for opening the door? That just sucks.

Well, he wouldn't have had a chance anyway, since I'm already taken.

If it's a person I know - especially if it's my boyfriend - I appreciate it, because it's more that they're being courteous to me than performing a duty for a random woman.

 

"How about whoever was going to get to the door first holds it for the person behind them?"

Yea, that usually works out. But then what do you do if you both get there at the same time?

"If it's a person I know - especially if it's my boyfriend - I appreciate it, because it's more that they're being courteous to me than performing a duty for a random woman."

Ok, that makes sense. I guess I'm ok with that. That's more like what I was thinking anyway.


As to random women, well if she's a few feet behind me, I'll hold the door, but if she's in front of me...well.....she's going to get there first, right? SO the only way I'm opening the door there is if she just stands there and doesn't open it, which doesn't happen often and when it does its always cause she's carrying something and having problems.

I'd hold it for a guy too most likely.

I find that most of the times that I offer to give up a seat to (or do something else for) female friends of mine, they politely refuse, but I think they appreciate it. One time in particular springs to mind when there were like 5 of us at somebody's house watching a movie and someone was sitting on the floor, so I offered her the chair I was inhabiting, but anyway she refused it, but she said thank-you and I think appreciated the offer. AND NO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE POINT OF THIS STORY WAS. I just felt like telling it due to the lack of anything else to do.

 

Yes it is dead, at least in my case
I used to be very chivalrise and polite in my younger years, then I found out most people are rude or unworthy of politeness so I in general I gave up. Of course I'm still polite to my Parents and friends, however a stranger will have to show their Kindness or politeness before I show mine.


It's really a shame the world has killed my desire to be polite or friendly anymore as I was always a fan I the old world.
Tipping hats, opening doors all gone.