Discussion Diversity In the New Saga [See OP Warning]

I wouldn't mind more aliens. And they are certainly good for flavoring and developing the world. Star Wars is what percentage human because it does seem absurdely high. Granted its much easier to do that in the books, animated material and comics where the difference doesnt cost much.

That being said I rank the need for quality alien representation a distant second to human diversity. Aliens arent paying money to go see the movies. We dont want to get into the old Justice League argument we don't need any black characters because the Martian Manhunter is green and can turn himself into a black guy in his personal life.

More POC Leads, More Alien Secondary Characters.

 

Agreed. However you can get minority leads while still using aliens is my point. I want more POC leads but there are a lot of good white actors. Instead of having them not get roles just make them alien characters. Also Ahsoka and Hera are both two of the best minority characters and they are aliens. Obviously I do not want the first black female SW lead to be a freaking twilek but there is a precedent for more aliens being connected to the actual diversity topic was my point. I just love playing devils advocate.

 

This is what I mean about muddying the waters; by any reasonable definition of the term "diversity" in the political context for which this thread was created, then if a Star Wars film has a lead role of a Twilek that ends up being played by a black woman, then that *is* a black female lead, in real world context.

Otherwise we are literally just talking about design aesthetics

 

Agreed. this is why we should not have an alien lead at least until we get a lot more diverse leads. My never-ending obsession with needing more aliens in SW has nothing to do with actual representation. Though it would be hurting stories potential to never ever have an alien lead. That would mean not rebels or Ahsoka film. Like I said just reserve those characters to be white actors rather than having your example of a black woman play a Twilek. Aliens in the story are a really secondary or really like 4th on the totem pole thing when it comes to diversity.

Though totally off topic why do droid characters get to be important to the plot but aliens are just comic relief and maybe heavy lifting? Stop Bot-washing star wars disney,

 

"Like I said just reserve those characters to be white actors rather than having your example of a black woman play a Twilek."

That's not what I'm advocating at all. Characters shouldn't be "reserved" as anything, there's plenty of room for lots of casting choices over the next few years.

"Aliens in the story are a really secondary or really like 4th on the totem pole thing when it comes to diversity. "

No, Aliens are *utterly irrelevant* to discussion of diversity in a political context - it's not like "get a black woman in, then lets have a Korean villain and a gay actor playing bounty hunter and THEN Alien Lead"; it's that the whole discussion, to be meaningful, needs to acknowledge that large roles in Star Wars can include humans, aliens and droids, and that the discussion is about the diversity in the way those roles are cast; not that aliens in the film show diversity. They show the diversity of species in a fictional universe, but that's not what this thread is about (Unless I've mistaken the intention)

 

Yeah aliens are good flavoring hence why I said more of them as secondary characters would be good. But they don't really factor in when talking about actual diversity. So perhaps a separate thread for that should be in order.

 

I was being factious. I know that aliens having nothing to do with actual diversity and of course I do not want anyone reserved for certain roles. My intention is not at all that aliens matter as actual diversity but rather to discuss how one goes about casting the inevitable alien characters. We will have alien supporting and lead characters in star wars regardless and while the amount of them or usage has nothing to do with their representation it is involved with the representation of actors of certain races cause unless they are all CG then someone has to play them. I am trying to take into account what the right thing to do is casting wise when you have a story that needs an alien lead. There will be alien character in SW who are not just in the back. You have to cast someone and sometimes they will be a major role. Obviously no race should be reserved for just aliens but at the same time we don't want to have our POC leads with green face paint. However we still want those inevitable major alien roles to be given to minority actors otherwise we are limiting the roles a person of a race or gender can play based on showing their actual face or gender. None of us want POC actors to never get to play a role like Ahsoka (I mean an Ahsoka like role not actually that character per se) or Thrawn.

Look at Maz. Alien character who was able to help star wars grow in terms of diversity. Even the alien roles help spread diversity in casting

Agreed but casting alien roles is a vital topic to discuss at some point when talking about diversity in casting. There will be alien characters story wise and someone has to play them.

 

"but at the same time we don't want to have our POC leads with green face paint. "

Why?
As long as there's no long term trend that non-white actors *only* play characters that are CG or hevaily disguised, keeping humans white only, then there's no problem I can see with this at all

 

did you read my edit? I did not mean it the way you read it. I meant to say first leads of certain minorities You seem to be harping on specific things I say while ignoring the rest of the post. I want minority actors in any role possible. I brought up Jar Jar and Maz as great examples of this. It is almost as if people slip up for one sentence occasionally. I was meaning more to ask if you meant that we should not take into account alien lead roles going to minorities cause earilier you said that alien roles are unimportant to diversity when clearly they are not. .

 

I'll try to clarify. What I'm saying is that "alien roles" when talking about how alien characters contribute to a varied set of characters, is not the diversity in question.
I don't know what you mean by "take into account'; I don't have this thing about alien roles that you have. They're just characters that'll be portrayed/voiced by humans.

 

Not for me. Phasma remained fairly voiceless and faceless in the movie, we know nothing about her values and seemingly no interpersonal relationships. Hux has his rivalry with Kylo and his reverence for Snoke. He is simply fleshed out more. I don't even know if Finn interests her, she treats him like I think she would treat any stormtrooper who acts weirdly.

The video just proves how the character was hyped and there was no payoff to that hype, only disappointment. Christie went on about how great it is to have a female villain in SW but that villain is utterly faceless and voiceless, it acts like a droid. The gender doesn't matter because Phasma is not even a human, she's a plot device.

SW was never great regarding diversity but it was also shot a time when diversity was even more an issue than today. Princess Leia as a strong female character was uncommon at the time. I think we should look forwards instead of backwards.

 

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by aliens. I do not mean diversity in terms of representing alien characters at all. I have no idea why you think that is my argument. What I am saying is that it is important to discuss the importance of roles the IN THE SCRIPT ARE ALIENS being given to minorities. I am simply saying that the point Darth_Pevra made about alien characters in this thread was not totally void of meaning in the conversation on diversity in casting. I am NOT saying that alien CHARACTERS need representation. That has NEVER been my point. This is getting away from the point of this conversation and what I was trying to say so I will loop it back in with, what I am trying to emphasis is that we should not make this just about casting for the human roles since many alien and droid roles open up chances for diverse parts for minorities. I think we are in agreement on the character being alien having no importance since they are just gonna be played by a human. You just seem to be totally misinterpreting why I am talking about alien roles. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are aliens nor does it connect at all to how many alien or droid characters should be in the story. That is not nor has it ever been my point. It's like you are arguing against my for points I am not trying to make and taking quotes out of context. Sorry if my points get a little jumbled. It is like 4 am for me right now.

Yeah to your point many people actually thought she WAS a droid.

 

Fair enough. The issues you mention weren't as big a deal for me, but you're certainly correct in that the promo stuff did oversell some aspects

 

Phasma has one thing going for her. She looks awesome. Hux is in generic military despot role.

 

I wonder how much 8 is gonna promote Phasma having a bigger role. People might not care cause they where let down before or just be not believe them cause she was overhyped a bit for people with TFA. I would make a clear point that she does have more actual scenes that showcase her than before with a tv spot for her or something.

Hey don't go knocking Hux. He was amazing. Plus he looks awesome as well. That hat is kick-a**.

 

Well I am certainly not buying a better Finn or Phasma until I see it with my own 2 eyes. Fool Me Once Shame On You, Full Me Twice Shame On You. Applies.

 

I agree on not being sure they will do more with Phasma till I see it though I think Finn was perfectly handled in TFA for the most part. I really am looking forward to his story with KMT's character and their new sidekick Space Horse. Wait......what if Space Horse is the new eu version of Master Thon!!!!

 

Women of color that we had in TFA (relevant in the story): Maz (in CGI), Korr Sella (died in her first scene without one line) and Jess pava (who we don't know if will be in VIII)

 

I mean, the issue with having a WoC in a role only to put blue or green paint over her is that it's basically done more often than seeing actual non-white human women in important roles in sci-fi movies. Avatar comes to mind, but it's far from the only one. Unless the person has seen what the actor looks like outside of the role (and that is often not the case, not a lot of people keep up with acting announcements) they will literally have no idea that that is supposed to be a black person. And a lot of representation can be seeing someone who looks like you reflected on screen. Not a green person. Diversity in roles is important too - and I'm glad they cast a black woman who especifically wanted a role where she didn't physically appear as Maz when they could have cast a white woman. But on-screen is as well, and that is something SW is lacking. Literally the only non-white woman that has a "Main Character" role in any of the SW visual midia is Sabine Wren.

 

So question for discussion: considering the history of films with regards to casting, is it incumbent upon the studio to "make amends for the sins of the past" to be sure female leads and POC leads are never to be cast in any role that is not positive (as some would say, "minus cool gear, minus cool weapons, minus decisive 'kick-assing' and/or minus losses)? Women should not be "femme fatales" villains, for example, or men (of POC) in any way less "macho" to another?

This is a serious question meant to generate discussion on how to "fix" things going forward, with the corollary question of should the next Star Wars film carry the burden of making right everything that has not been right for decades, or can progress be in steps?

 

its an interesting question, I think realistically the answer is in little leaps; confident decisions that aren't swayed by noise and that avoid attempts by either side of a wider debate to use a film as a shining example of progress, or as all that is wrong with society now.
One of the drawbacks of the Internet is that things can no longer happen quietly - every taboo broken or potentially political decision in a creative thing will see fans discussing it with likeminded fans and reinforcing their initial reaction to it, rather than working through it.

When I was about 11, I read the sequel to The Wonderful Wizard Of Oz, and its lead character was essentially transgender; a small boy who realises at the end that he was actually the princess, magicked into a different body while someone else ruled; the boy embraces his new identity.

Now, imagine if that happened now, either in a direct adaptation of that book, or in a different franchises new installment; whereas in the past, the book and the character were the thing, and it's through either relating to the character or feeling in some way repelled by the character that we work out our own opinions, now there would immediately be people championing it or condemning it, and rather than (as I recall I did) feeling a bit uncomfortable, but accepting it within the context of the book and then later slowly kind of absorbing that info along countless others into a worldview where being transgender won't negatively affect my opinion of you, now it's far easier to place yourself within a context of People Who Don't Like It or People Who Are Totally Progressive.

Ultimately, while you're never going to please everyone, I don't think it does anyone any favours to almost dare people to object. Take ghostbusters. I saw it, and yeah, it was alright. Made me laugh, no real objections, and within the story it does totally make sense that the team are all women in the way the friendships are written.
However, there's no doubt at all in my mind that some of the people behind it didn't have a burning desire to tell THIS story with THESE actors and that in fact they actively stoked a hornets nest of resistance to it - it may have been a progressive leap, but it wasn't a leap that invited everyone to jump with them - it was a leap where they turned and swore at those on the "wrong" side, and then those people didn't go to see it. Converselay, look at TFA; the short lived minority objection to a black guy and a woman had barely any impact on the film at all, because there didn't seem (to me) to be cynicism about it, everyone was invited along for the ride.

 

How specific were they though? Did they want an actress with a Black father and a mother who was a Mexican and White multiracial? Or did they want an actress with White and Indian parents or possibly someone with White and Black parents or even White and Chinese?

 

from Variety

 

Messa thinks that thy diversity is a needing Gungan's. I's a love the fan made poster of me as all the characters but Gungan's need representation too in Rogue One too.

Da Gungans is a native inhabitant of Naboo, we are a amphibious species and can hold are breath for long times.
Wessa Yoga Masters because of our flexibility and cartilage. Wessa also have long tongues for catching are meals.
Messa thinks that da Galaxy sees da Gungans as primitive however we have developed advanced technology.
Wesa got a grand army. That's why you no liking us meesa thinks.

Yousa might'n be sayin dat me in the Senate as the Emperors puppet is not worth pursuing but it's demanded by the Gangun fans it is.

 

This is going to get old really, really quickly