Do you agree with Old Man Luke about the Jedi?

I don't even think it's vanity, any more than it's vanity for Spider-Man to recognize that he has been gifted with great power and the city needs him to protect it. It's called taking responsibility and being a hero.

Everything Luke says about the Jedi being bad was already covered by earlier films. Luke recognized and corrected the flaws of the old Jedi--which were of course ultimately his own flaws--by the end of ROTJ. There's no reason for him to be acting like he is in TLJ unless he was beaten with a stupid stick.

Watching a depressed guy be dumb and say dumb, obviously wrong things for two hours isn't deep or interesting. There were no new ideas or interesting takes on the Jedi presented in TLJ. It was all rehashing of obvious things that were already addressed.

And it's worth noting that most of the critics I've seen heaping praise on the film for being "subversive" and what-have-you seem to think that TLJ was making a statement about the Jedi with the views it expressed through Luke. Are they wrong? If not, what statement was actually being made?

 

I think, while the Jedis flaws were alluded to in the previous films, it's good to give voice to the concept of their failures in the ST.

I think the message of Luke's journey isn't a meditation on whether the Jedi should end, although he presents arguments, and gives voice to some reasonable, although obvious to fans, arguments. Really his journey is about how to deal with failure, the responsibility you have for those who you train, and depression. I personally understand why someone as deeply compassionate as Luke would be really, really upset by something he incorrectly believes is completely, or mostly, his fault. He doesn't just blame himself for his moment of instinct to save everyone from Kylo Ren, but also all the people who suffered consequently. Really that's on Kylo, just as Vader's actions were on him and not the Jedi.

So when Luke says that the Jedi should end because of their failures, I don't think we're meant to agree with Luke. We're meant to see that he's projecting because of his failures and we're meant to understand this is a result of his trauma and depression.

 

If we're not meant to agree with Luke, and Luke doesn't actually outline any novel insights into Jedi philosophy and its relative flaws and virtues, then what is the point of the movie? What are we left with? We're left with "Luke is a depressed sad sack because he tried to murder his nephew and messed everything up." Fantastic. I can see why this is such a deep movie. I can totally relate to being a complete moron, just like Luke.

e: The problem is you're not actually making any arguments in favor of the film being worthwhile. You're just re-stating the premise over and over and over again and acting like we're supposed to be convinced by this somehow.

 

He didn't try and murder his nephew. He momentarily thought about it when he saw the equivalent of an ISIS plot sprawled across his room.

I don't think depressed people are morons for what they think. Yes, Luke isn't acting completely rationally, but that's because he's depressed and traumatised because of the pressure and events rhat transpired. I don't know if you've seen Manchester by the Sea, but that has similar themes, even if better done.

 

It's kinda worrying that people seem more inclined to believe the villain's recount of what happened between him and Luke, rather than Luke himself.

 

At no point did I intend. You, and others, seem to genuinely misunderstand the message of the film and I'm gicing my perspective. Whether you think it's worthwhile is completely up to you - i doubt any argument I could make would make you think it is.

 

Again, we saw nothing of the sort.

When was it "clearly shown in the PT" that the Jedi believed the Force belonged to them? Or that they were the light side? No movie showed any of that. The Jedi didn't brag about anything, nor were they vain in any sense of the word.

When? How?

He didn't merely state that they failed. He's blaming them for what happened, which means that not only he's not being honest about things, but he also didn't understand what exactly did fail. Also, his failures were not the failures of the past. He flat out behaved out of character without any justification for it.

The film doesn't present us with anything. His viewpoint and accusations are left uncontested. How is he wrong? It's not said. His actions are full of contradictions too. He has a change of heart without any catalyst or explanation.

What's that supposed to mean? Wether he's the protagonist or not is irrelevant. So is Rey being the hero. What she got from Luke is not corrected. Is she supposed to guess that he was wrong? Is she supposed to guess what really happened? No.

How so? How are his various false claims refuted at the end?

 

Oh I see what you’re talking about wit the vain thing. I thought you were talking about another scene. He’s talking about how if the Jedibhad he perspective Rey had it would be vain. They didn’t necessarily have that view.

We are told.

He blamed them because he's projecting into them for his failure. This is not hard to understand and is a common thing people suffering from mental illness suffer from. And it is a failure from his past whether you think it’s out of character or not.

 

He is wrong because the film clearly paints him as being wrong. Our POV character, Rey, challenges him as being wrong. He refutes his beliefs at the end of the film. The only other character who seems to genuinely believe the Jedi should end is Kylo, the villain of the film who is left defeated and with said worldview refuted. It couldn't get any more obvious that he was in the wrong unless Luke stood in the camera and said "I was wrong". And did we just forget the Yoda scene? That scene pretty much acts as the catalyst for why he rejects his prior notions.

His role is incredibly relevant as to whether or not he should truly be believed in his viewpoints. Maybe I'm just crazy, but Star Wars films don't usually frame characters in antagonistic rules as being in the right.

He himself lets go of his beliefs. He asserts that the rebellion will be born, the war has just begun, and he'll not be the last Jedi. All of which are clearly true.

 

Yeah I don't really know how you could think TLJ agreed with Luke's message at the beginning-middle of the film. His big final scene was literally a repudiation of it all.

 

Luke literally says "I will not be the last Jedi." He's saying he's a Jedi and it will continue. That means he has accepted the Jedi way again and has bestowed Rey as his successor.

 

But when did Rey have that perspective?

When?

Wait, Luke suffers from a mental illness?!

Anyway, my point is that even if he's projecting his failures onto the Jedi of the past, he never corrects himself to anyone.

No, she doesn't. She's not shown having any knowledge of the events of the PT (why would she?). She challenges him regarding him saving Vader (how Vader's inner conflict is public knowledge is beyond me). Not any of his other ramblings.

No, he doesn't. His false claims remain the same. Unchallenged. Taken as is.

What exactly did Yoda reveal to him that he didn't already know?

It's clear that whatever the Jedi and their ways used to be about is gone. After all, Luke died without passing on what he had learned. The main character is a self taught individual, any teachings about the Force is reduced to "lifting rocks" and the Jedi way conveniently left in a blank slate, to be revisioned in future works...

 

When she says that the Jedi need to return or Kylo couldn't be defeated. The implication is that only Jedi can be the 'avatar' for the light.

Luke tells us that's what people think of the Jedi after they went all but extinct.

That's certainly how I viewed his behaviour.

His whole message is that theJedi shouldn't return because of x, y and z and he even mocks the idea of doing what he does at the end of the film. Hy doing what he does at the end and dying the Jedi will not end, he's clearly refuting his thoughts previously.

 

I don't think we can infer exactly that from what she said. Only that she expects Jedi to do Jedi stuff. Also, she saying that is not vanity. She's not a Jedi.

He tells us that they basically are not worthy of existence because Sidious managed to get into power and destroy them. He blames Obi-Wan for Anakin's fall. He accuses them of hipocrisy and hubris when he's the one not being honest and truthful about things.

Well, I guess I can't blame you.

But if that was the case, then he got cured from a mental illness by having a sudden change of heart?

How so? The pointlessness of his last act notwithstanding, how does him dying not make the Jedi end? He died and didn't pass on the Jedi teachings to anyone. The only one who actually learned Jedi teachings from him never completed his training and is now a Vader wannabe with no intention of changing. Rey didn't learn anything of the Jedi ways either. The two "lessons" he gave her were personal rants, not Jedi teachings. Even if he gave her three Jedi lessons as promised it would still not be enough to make anyone a Jedi. So how exactly didn't the Jedi end? Even if there are people with potential to be Jedi, all they could do is play pretend.

 

Luke is basically saying "if the Jedi thought as you did it would be vanity", not that they actually held that vanity.

He's basically talking about himself when he says those things. He failed in the same way (darkness rose that he couldn't stop and he lost an apprentice) and therefore he is a failure not worthy of continuing. If he's not worthy then the Jedi weren't worthy either because they all made mistakes like him. He's being too harsh on both himself and the Jedi. Its classic projection so he doesn't have to deal with the burden of passing the teachings on when he feels he can't.

I wouldn't say he was cured. He was inspired to change his life around after Yoda came and talked to him, but if he had lived he no doubt would have taken a while to truly get over it.

Rey had the books and I'm sure he could pass on some stuff like Qui-Gon. She'll be the next Jedi and he declares that.

 

That's your interpretation, but it's never made clear to those he's talking to: Rey and the audience. We are supposed to take what he said as true, since he never corrects those claims.

What mistakes? The existence of evil is not a mistake of good. There's a difference between failure and mistake.

So, he was inspired by Yoda (even though Yoda said nothing that he didn't already know) therefore he's no longer mentally ill?

For the record, I don't think he's mentally ill at all. I'm just entertaining your argument.

So the books (whose content was conveniently kept hidden) make one a Jedi? Not just that, but from a creative standpoint, that's having carte blanche to redefine the Jedi however they see fit. For all we know, Rey is already a Jedi.

Suffice to say, I have a bad feeling about this...

Qui-Gon didn't pass on any teachings on how to be a Jedi. He passed on a very specific knowledge that only he could provide to people who were already Jedi.

When Obi-Wan died, he didn't continue Luke's training. He sent him to Yoda. When Yoda died, he had specifically requested Luke (who had completed his training) to teach others the Jedi way. He didn't rely on his eventual existence in the Force to take that task. He passed it on to Luke, because it was his job as a living Jedi to do it.

 

Of course it's an interpretation. I think it's pretty clear. It doesn't need to be stated outright.

I didn't say that evil was a mistake of good. I said that the Old Jedi clearly made mistakes serving the Republic too closely, getting involved in war, etc. Obviously Luke is being way too harsh in these mistakes but they were mistakes none the less.

Didn't I just say that Yodas talk didn't cure him of his mental illness? It merely gets him to turn his life around.

 

It doesn't? Then we are supposed to realize his claims were wrong because...? Him appearing at the end doesn't refute his accusations against the Jedi.

How exactly were those mistakes? What's "serving the Republic too closely"? How was getting involved in the war a mistake? Were they supposed to guess it was a bogus war? Were they supposed to guess they (along with the whole Republic) were being deceived by the Sith? Were they supposed to do nothing when they could act, help the war end sooner and save many lives?

Then how exactly is he mentally ill if the problem he had is allegedly gone?

 

His claims are wrong because they are made predicated that because of them the Jedi must end. At the end, whether you think it can actually happened or not, he declares that the Jedi will not end. Therefore it's pretty obvious that he thinks the Jedi should end because of their mistakes.

Jedi clearly aren't meant to serve as Generals, and that was a mistake. Also taking and leading the cloje army, whole an act of desperation, was clearly a mistake. That doesn't mean they should end because of it, obviously. But these were mistakes.

Someone getting up and resolving to change their lot in life, doesn't mean they are 'cured'. Someone changing their tune and starting to become more proactive does not mean they are cured.

 

Luke's opinion was exactly that - his opinion, no more or less. He took his own personal errors and failings and projected them on the concept of the Jedi as a whole. He saw himself as both the Last Jedi and a failure, and as such, the Jedi should be got rid of; Rey (and Leia) thought he still had plenty he could teach even if he didn't see it. And I presumed it was pretty clear that we weren't meant to assume that Luke was right about everything, as shown by the fact that Yoda came back to tell him that he isn't quite the failure he thinks. The fact he comes back to embrace his role as a symbol and inspiration (even as he dies) proves he learned the lesson I feel.