Do you feel that the JCF should allow 'same gender relationships' to be portrayed in the fan fiction

12 days, 500 post....

'It isn't over yet'....

 

Okay, out of curiosity, I decided to re-read the VSDs.

There were references to male genetalia (although given a different name), masturbation, and sexual slaves.

All I could find that was questionable were the words "shagging", "pervy" and "gay", Legolas performing a musical in the nude (completely comedic - no detailed description), non-specific sexual references like "getting it on", and terms like "elfhood" (is that the reference to male genetalia you were talking about?). Besides, the word "masturbation" is only mentioned off-hand, not described (which is obviously allowed by forum standards since we both typed it in our messages). As for sexual slaves, I hope you weren't referring to Gandalf and the Balrog... they did date once, afterall! I would be surprised if the Diaries got more than a PG-13 rating.

But still, all of this is beside the point ? we were specifically asked not to link to them because of the SSR content, not because any rating they may have.

 

'It isn't over yet'....

It is for me, sister. I don't care about your rebellion, and I don't care about you...

Wait a second, sorry, I suddenly felt this overwhelming urge to say that.

 

Bithy: From Boromir's Diary:

Day One:

Went to Council of Elrond. Aragorn acting all superior as usual. He thinks he's so great because he's shagging that bit of elf crumpet on the side. I mean just because someone has a broad chest, firm, defined muscles, an outdoorsy tan and loads of manly stubble doesn't mean that....what? Got distracted there for a bit.

Seem to have agreed to go on some sort of mission while distracted by Aragorn's enormous...rudeness.

Ooops.

Day Ten:

Why isn't Aragorn into *me* ?

Day Thirty:

Aragorn suggested we take baths as well. Only realized in nick of time he did not mean with each other.


and that's just Boromir. If I understand the ruling correctly, it's against slash regulations. Ratings, I'm not sure about.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying, Liz... they are not allowed basically because they have SSR content (ratings aside).

It's too bad we can't write Star Wars Very Secret Diaries on this fan fic board... that would be hilarious.

 

Very Secret Diary of Obi-Wan Kenobi:

Day Thirty-One:

Killed by Ani. Stupid Ani.

 

Perfect!

Very Secret Diary of Darth Vader:

Day One: Can't believe that poncy little twit is my son. So embarrasing.
Swear I can hear Obi-Wan laughing at me from beyond the grave. No wonder he killed himself.

 

Coota- Freudian slip?

What's the link to the VSD? Can someone PM them to me? Thanks!

They look funny

 

I second that. A PM with a link would be appreciated. Sounds like a side trip worth taking.

CYN

 

Count me in for a link, that was hilarious

And back on topic, I just thought of this and wasn't sure if the point had been brought up in the thread:

It's been suggested that since slash sites have only slash that TF.N could declare itself a solely het site and ban all SSR and slash even in the slightest/mildest degree.

The problem with this argument (aside from the previously discussed difference between a general fanfic site with guidlines to a genre specific site) is that slash sites don't outlaw the mention of het relationships as has been done here. When you read slash/SSR fanfic, not all the couples are same-sex because it's just as unrealistic as it is to have only heterosexual couples here. So, even if this site were a "Het only" site, the mention and/or presence of a SSR in a story should be tolerated just as a hetero relationship is on a slash site. Otherwise, it is discrimination.



-~Aanix~-

 

Sorry I haven't read all 500 posts...So this has probably all been said a million times...

But my vote: Sure, why not. Okay, I've read that some people think if it's in the EU, that means LFL must have allowed it, and it'll be okay on the fanfic boards.

Okay, let's look at this passage from the Black Fleet Crisis:

With a slash of his right claw, Nil Spaar ripped open Barth's bare torso from hip to shoulder, shattering ribs, pulling soft organs from their cavities. Barth's scream, a horrible, inhuman sound of immeasurable agony, was cut short when his lungs were rent by the claw and collapsed with a grisly wheeze.

For too long a moment, the sight held Han transfixed, every detail burning into his memory. Then his stomach heaved, and he turned away, choking on a bitter taste.

"Perhaps you understand us a little better now," Nil Spaar said, stepping back and absently sucking the blood from his claw.

With effort, Han found his voice. "You b******."

"Your opinion of me is of no consequence, and never has been," the viceroy said, and looked to one of his aides. "When you are finished here, have him moved to my ship."

"Yes, darama," said the aide. Then he and the others knelt differentially, almost reverently, as Viceroy Nil Spaar left the chamber.

Han raised his head and forced himself to look at Barth. The white pants were sodden crimson drapes hanging from the flight engineer's legs. The pool of blood and other bodily fluids below him had grown to the point where it was threatening to engulf Han's feet.

Something in the spill of organs on Barth's lap was still twitching or pulsing.

Okay..so this kind of stuff is allowed in the EU, but two people of the same sex exchanging a tender glance, maybe a kiss isn't considered family friendly? If I were a parent, I'd be more disturbed if my child read the former than the latter.

Gay people exist in real life, and there's nothing wrong about people being aware of that. Prime time TV doesn't shy away from it.

Look at my user name, Tara in Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a beautiful and tastefully done same-sex relationship with Willow. Far less explicit than many of the scenes we saw with Buffy/Angel, but more poignant and expressive, IMO. That was shown on prime time TV as well.

I don't even know why there has to be a debate..It's not a big deal...

 

The words themselves are not the problem, but the context and the amount. I have not encountered a fic on these boards where Qui-Gon wonders if "Obi-Wan was masturbating when he arrived home".

I doubt there is a fic on these boards where nearly every paragraph has some sexual inuendo, and not only about attraction or sexual acts, but sex toys, nudity etc etc.

The reference to sexual slavery was not the Balrog, it was Sam and Frodo, where Sam is referred to as a "faithful bit of rough trade". Upon rereading it though, I think it's more a reference to prostitution.

 

The words themselves are not the problem, but the context and the amount. I have not encountered a fic on these boards where Qui-Gon wonders if "Obi-Wan was masturbating when he arrived home".

Absolutely correct - but that is covered under the PG rating policy, is it not? Let's face it - if one wants to read about every possible sexual combination, in explicit detail, involving SW characters - and everyone else - it's out there, easily available. Keeping this site family friendly deprives no one of whatever kinks they might choose to indulge or read about.

But prohibiting any mention or reference to SSR IS discriminatory in that it makes a moral judgement about such relationships, and, by ignoring their existence, relegates them to the fringe areas of society. I invite you to take a look around; whether or not you approve, gay and lesbian rights exist and are becoming more mainstream with every passing day. Pretending that they're still cowering in closets and denying their identities is simple refusing to address reality.

No one is advocating graphic homosexual love scenes - any more than they would favor gratuitous heterosexual pornographic text here. But to refuse to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of such relationships - in the SW universe or anywhere else - gives tacit approval to the ugliness of prejudice and bigotry.

Furthermore, I heartily support Tara's contention that the graphic quality of the passage she quoted is much, MUCH more offensive than any description of affectionate tenderness between two characters could be - regardless of their gender.

CYN

 

Cyn,

There are well over 500 post on this thread, many of which are passionate and eloquent. A handfull are down right exempliary... Yours is one of the best of the lot....

Wonderfly said, Thank you.

 

Thanks, Breezy - you are SOOOO good for my ego.

Still waiting for that PM, Guys. I'm really getting curious to take a look at this parody.

EDIT: By way of explanation of why this topic is meaningful for me: I debated mentioning this, because I feel it suggests that I'm laying claim to a grief that isn't legitimately mine to claim, but I've concluded that the explanation adds to the point I've tried to make.

As a twice-married, twice-divorced, mother of five, it should be fairly obvious that I am NOT of the lesbian persuasion - BUT - I was very fortunate to have a wonderful friend - the very first friend I made when, as a naive little country girl, I left home and went away to college; his name was Mark - and he was gay - and he was a truly marvelous person; generous, supportive, warm, caring, and soft-hearted to a fault. He never flaunted his sexual orientation - but he never concealed it either. He was who and what he was - and never pretended otherwise. And, for his honesty and for being true to himself, he was ostracized and treated horribly by people who called themselves 'Christians' or, even more laughably, 'moralists'.

From the age of twenty-two, he was devoted to his 'soulmate'; they shared a love that was as pure and beautiful as anything I've ever been privileged to witness, and they were more faithful to each other than most husbands and wives in these divorce-ridden times.

Two years ago, he was killed in an automobile accident - and his mate still grieves and probably always will. When I talked to him last, and tried to tell him that Mark would not want him to spend his life in mourning, he said something I'll never forget.

"You only find Camelot once."

I am grateful every day of my life for having had such incredibly lovely people in my life - and I pity everyone whose mind is too narrow to acknowledge the sweet perfection of such a union.


CYN

 

**sniff sniff** That was so beautiful, CYNICAL, I seriously am about to cry.

From an author's point of view as well, that was a story worth telling, and a love worth celebrating in prose or poetry. I find it very sad that this site would ban such a tale for such trivial reasons...

"You only find Camelot once."

That's going in my quotes book.




-~Aanix~-

 

I am honestly crying right now... that is one of the most tragic love stories I've ever heard. I want to thank you for sharing it, CYNICAL, I'm sure it must be very difficult to talk about.


Why can't we write such beautiful and pure love stories on this board??

 

*reads CYN's post* *sniffles*


Why can't we write such beautiful and pure love stories on this board??

Just my words.

 

I'm just annoyed you can't simply reference a same sex relationship without actually showing it. Talk about being tight.

 

I voted Yes, with the same limitations as listed in the FAQ for depiction of adult heterosexual relations.

This is a touchy subject, and it shouldn't be.

I know lots of people, and they are all different. So why should they be ashamed or discriminated against because of who they are.

This goes far beyond legal or religious stuff here. I think it has more to do with letting people be who they are. STAR WARS FANS!

This is a community of people from all over the world. Allot of them may leave for good over this. I hope that the powers that be can see that this is just not right.

 

I vote yes as well. I haven't taken the time to read all 500+ posts, so this has probably been said many times, so beware!

My report on book censorship is due tomorrow, so most of my viewpoints come from my research.

1. Not everyone is heterosexual. So why should fan-fics dealing with non-heterosexual relationships be banned? Controversy can't be concealed by pretending it doesn't exist. Parents certainly have the right to proctect their children from unappropriate material, but I don't see how hiding G - PG-13 rated homosexuality fics is going to help them prepare for living in the real world. As long as it follows the family friendly ratings, I don't see what the problem is.

2. No one will make you read homosexual fics. Just because I don't read Obidala fics doesn't mean I want to ban them for everybody. If I don't want to read a fic because I don't like the principles in it, I won't read it. Homosexual fics should be allowed for anyone who wants to read them. If those kind of fics aren't to your taste, don't read them!


Just my $.02!


*SB*

 

Again the fundamental issue here that needs to be clarified:

The only thing the FAQ says -

Slash is not permitted at the JC.

No definition of the term slash, does this refer to explicit same sex activity only, or to any G or PG rated same sex content.

Josh's only backup to the rule is agreement with the following statement -

Yet it still angers some parents and powerful political groups. So instead of opening themselves up to hate mail, criticism, and boycotts of their own, the TF.N staff/owners has decided to make a call that avoids all that. They have no obligation to break down any walls of prejudice against slash fiction OR help reduce bias against homosexuals. SW doesn't depict any homosexual relationships, but no one is accusing GL of declaring homosexuality wrong by that omission. They have every right to dictate what they will allow on their site and message boards. They aren't stating their opinion about gays and lesbians with this policy, they are avoiding conflict.

This in no way answers the question of whether or not a kiss that is allowed to be described between Anakin and Padme is not allowed when Anakin is changed to one of the Handmaidens.

Can we get a statement from Josh or Kadue on this please? And a revision of the FAQ to be definitive. Many very active people on this board are deciding whether to stay here or not based on the answer.

 

Kadue posted a statement last week in this thread.

 

This must have been on one one of the 2 or 3 pages out of 21 I didn't read

Kadue's post:

First, as JG has said, I'll write up something a bit less vague than what was re-posted, but remember, while it is a guideline, it's also a general guideline, meaning it won't be a 10 page bit of legislation that outlines everything. There is going to be a grey area that isn't clear, but it's not like people are going to be handed out bans for posting things, unless it is done with repeat deliberate intent against the forum guidelines.

Bithy, in regards to your question about that specific fic, unless it is a slash fic (SSR, whichever name a person wishes to address it by) or you are spelling anything out, then it's fine.

Still waiting on the "something a bit less vague" and still again the use of the term "unless it is a slash fic" but no definition of the term, I really would like an official definition (for the purposes of TF.N).

 

I was talking to Kadue earlier. The issue hasn't been forgotten. Please have patience.

The essence of the policy is in the previous posts, and it's really fairly simple, if not what's wanted. Vague allusions (like the EU one that's been tossed around about "his taste didn't run to human women") are okay. Actions that can be interpreted as affectionate friendship without sexual overtones are okay (you may be privately positive that Sam kissing Frodo's cheek is a romantic action; another reader may think it simply affectionate, as it was in the book--things of that nature). And that's as far as it goes.