Do you feel that the JCF should allow 'same gender relationships' to be portrayed in the fan fiction

By allowing same sex relationships, TF.N is promoting good fellowship and equality among its members, and advancing social virtues that are just and right, without any human being of any age, gender, race, religion, or sexual preference being discriminated upon.

 

And let it be said that at least in THIS instance I'm not being told (off board but pertaining to the subject at the time) to Go "**** someone get aids and die"

Personally I think that has no place here. Let?s not throw another log into the flames, please.

By allowing equitable depictions of PG-Rated romance in the FanFic boards, TF.n is showing that, at least in cyberspace, all people are equal in importance, portrayal and reverence.

And...

By allowing same sex relationships, TF.N is promoting good fellowship and equality among its members, and advancing social virtues that are just and right, without any human being of any age, gender, race, religion, or sexual preference being discriminated upon.

Brilliant choice of words. Thank you, PtrsonsZ00 and Grand_Admiral_Jaxx. I couldn?t have said it any better myself.

Re: the male kissing icon, I believe when that icon was first made there were doubts whether it should be eligible for uploading. Admittedly that was a couple of months ago, so excuse me if my memory fails me. I was part of that group, and a bit alarmed when I saw it, but since then I have started to become more aware of homosexuality. I don?t want to use the word ?tolerant?, because it makes me think of a child yelling in the supermarket and customers trying to ignore the behaviour.

Have you ever argued the question of Jedi celibacy in fanfic? I think you'll find that slash is a much more readily accepted genre!

I think that got the first laugh out of me today. Thanks, JG. True enough ? there is an abundance of Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fics circulating around other sites. Actually, I thought I might contact the webmaster of one of those places and record their opinion. It might help further this debate.

Kitt327, unfortunately, here in America tend to be alot more conservative about physical displays of affection between members of the same gender (particularly men).

I wouldn?t say conservative; I?d use the word ?overreaction?. Such ?conservativeness? is based on assumptions. Same thing happens over here in Australia. I think it?s worldly.

As Kitt pointed out by providing the link, hasn?t the decision already been made? I don?t mean to sound negative and go all critical on everyone here, but we?re beating the drum when the crowds have long since departed.

Would the petition do any good if Josh has already decided to avoid conflict and this controversial topic? His post was made only a few days ago, and I?d say he still stands by his position. I realise the discussion is still going on in Comms on a new thread, but is it getting anywhere?

I suddenly feel like that one person beating the drum.

Am


EDIT: Shoot the mark-up codes .

 

As was discussed earlier, if tf.n was advertised as a heterosexual collection of fanfiction, that would not be discriminatory. Just as a site advertised as a homosexual collection of fanfiction would not be discrimination. It would be the limits of the site and the restrictions placed by the owner.

There is also the issue of Lucasfilm policy. Josh is responsible for making sure everything on this site complies with Lucasfilm and if there are grey areas, it's reasonable his own judgement be used.

Lucasfilm has left their policy open to interpretation. "The
company tolerates the publication of fanfiction, so long as the
stories are not for comercial gain and don't sully the "family" image
of the Star Wars characters."

Lucasfilm has acted against slash fanfiction on these grounds, but I'm unsure whether it was because it had a high rating (NC17 etc) or if it was the homosexual relationship.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with any sexual orientation. If people are happy, then I'm happy for them. I have gay friends (it seems everyone does these days ). I just don't agree that slash should be included here. It's a very difficult issue.

 

Re: the male kissing icon, I believe when that icon was first made there were doubts whether it should be eligible for uploading.

Hmmmm.... I wasn't aware of that. Very interesting, Amidala. I also want to applaud you for taking the time to become more educated on the subject of homosexuality. I have all the respect in the world for that.


EDIT: I want to reiterate that I don't think we should use the word "slash" in this case as it incorrectly carries connotations of graphic violence/sex. "SSR romance" would be more appropriate a term.

 

For the record, the only FanFiction site, to date, that LFL has taken any legal action against, was a site that dealt with not only slash, but also graphic content of a particularly violent and sexual nature and it was a joint action with several studios. My understanding was that they merely signed on, as one of the parties requesting the C&D order. And they were also attempting to profit from the site as well, which also violates LFL position in regards to any FanFiction.

EDIT: I should restate that this is the only recorded action. Sending out a letter requesting a cease and desist action, is not the same as legal action.

 

"Yes, with the same limitations as listed in the FAQ for depiction of adult hetrosexual relations."

Homosexuality is a reality, no point on ignoring that. One as to evolve is mind acordding with the times and reality, homosexuality is not something new. It exists centurys over centurys. Only now that is being assumed. I'm heterosexual but i think that Homesexual should have the same rights and not being marginalized. So, having the same rights as heterosexual, they should only be restricted to the TOS. All ppl talk about that the JC is to promove cultural exchange, and then distictions is to be made? Racism is not permited, then why should homophobia be?

I'm all in favour to the "Yes, with the same limitations as listed in the FAQ for depiction of adult hetrosexual relations.".

Thank you.

 

Let?s not throw another log into the flames, please.

It's a VERY valid point.

Edit

In regards to later replies to this post:
Regarding 'logs'...

I brought it up because the last time sexuality was an issue in fan fic, I personally got raked over the coals and was branded as some sort of pervert because I happen to not have issues with sexuality... The poll is open, if you want to state your case then please do so but leave ME as a Person out of it...

***********************************
(from the original post before I got fed up with things)

Part of me wishes I'd never been the one to take this issue out of Coms and bring it here... for a lot of reasons, but by the same tolken, it needed to be addressed.. might as well have been me...

 

Well, I voted for the last option partly because I'm starting to have more respect for slash now and also partly because there is a double standard here. I've seen many comments relating to heterosexual relationships that made me feel pretty uncomfortable. I know that if someone posted a fic with homosexual relationships that weren't even half as graphic as those aforementioned jokes/comments, they'd get editted or banned right away. No one is asking for explicit, R rated or NC17 rated material, people just want the same fairness that heterosexual relationships get. If not it's just a double standard and that is not cool. What bugs me is when something as benign as a link to the LOTR Very Secret Diaries gets editted because it has mild slashy overtones while people are allowed to make all kinds of "racy" comments about say Padme or Slave! Leia and no one bats an eyelash because that's guys talking about girls. Either be fair and accept the fact that homosexuality exists or ban talking about ANY sort of relationships/ sexuality.

I know I'm just reiterating what others already said but I felt I had to explain why I voted the way I did.

 

Personally I think that has no place here. Let?s not throw another log into the flames, please.

... Or another flame onto the logs?

 

Personally I think that has no place here. Let?s not throw another log into the flames, please

Agreed. That was a personal comment (so was the original). It doesn't really belong in a debate about an idea, any more than accusations of bigotry, of being "uneducated," or, for that matter, of being "sinful" do.

Syntax--in a debating club where the arbiting authorities are neutral and the debating parties are on equal ground, undercutting arguments (while still not my preference) is acceptable. But from a sheer politics point of view, this isn't a case of two people with equal power having an argument about the scenario. If you're asking someone to do something rather than trying to win a point, it's always better to go with win-win.

Josh's statement lists two or three reasons, and they should be addressed--not undercut, but addressed. They need to be assumed to be valid concerns, and you show how each concern would be addressed to avoid headaches and conflict should he choose to change his mind, and show where his assumptions are possibly empirically mistaken (as opposed to making comments about whether or not they're morally mistaken).

 

Well DB I believe I will post in here. Here is what I have to say:

If your going to have same gender fics. They must go by the same rules say M/F fics. I also think it would be good to let people who may be offened by same genders know about it before they read. A lot of the same genders I read were not very good. They had a lot more sex then story. I feel that if done in good taste same genders sotrys can be very good. If done right and in good taste. We don't really need to know that two male or female characters are havifn sex and so on. I'm not agaesnit same gender storys. I'm agaenits the way some of those storys are done.

 

I think that there should be a level of freedom for the writer to depict events as they see them in their own minds. Yes, we do need to have across the board standards for all situations, but I don't see why there should be a double standard here.

Quite honestly explicit violence and the depictions of human injuries/mutilations is far more harmful than a well-written fanfic that happens to delve into a homosexual relationship.

The best way to eliminate all these problems that we have had in the past several months, whether it dealt with the depiction of sexual relationships in fanfic, slash, violence, etc. is to simply detail at the beginning of each fanfic what is involved in that fanfic. If you go to a fanfic, and see in the disclaimers that there is a homosexual relationship somewhere in this work, and you don't want to read that, you can simply not read the fanfic.

I would like to think that all of us here can express enough willpower to simply choose not to read a fanfic if it contains certain themes or events that is anathema to our personal values.

If this type of rule was set in place, then having homosexual relationships protrayed at the same level as heterosexual relationships would not be a big issue simply because the reader would know ahead of time what they are choosing to read and can simply choose not to read the fanfic. It's as simple as that.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

 

First of all, lets remember that although Josh is qoting that post as his reasons, it was not a post he originally made. It is therefore possible that the reasons listed may not be perfectly true to Josh's own views, ro that they may not encompass the entirety of his opinion.

However, at this point, since he has so far not made it clear through his own words, we shall have to address the arguements in the position he declares is his own.

Reading through that post, the arguements boil down to a few basic points.

1. Josh is not doing this because of his own religious views. I am infering this from his remark that he is quite far from a religious fundamentalist. With all due respect to the theists of all religions expressing their view, to me this seems to recognize the possibility of change since his view is not based upon what he perceives to be a higher power's laws.

2. The topic is 'highly controversial'.
This is undoubtedly true. There is very high chance that should we all be forced into a room and told we couldn't come out til we all agreed one way or another we'd never see natural light again. This however, is not to say that it deserves to be completely avoided.
As I understand it, there is no moritorium on possibly controvesial topics in fanfic.
If someone wrote a peice where Kyp Durron, having been condemned to death for his part in the destruction of Carida and speant the last few hours of his life contemplating his upcoming execution, I can see nothing that would justify removing it even though the death penalty is controversial.
If someone wrote a peice where Shmi Skywalker was contemplating getting rid of her Pregnancy to keep her child from being born a slave. I can see nothing in the rules that would disallow it, even though it would be controversial topic.
'Controversial' as a reason for banning topics extends beyond SSR. Therefore, in my view, controversy by itself is not reason to ban something.

3. Some parents do not want their children exposed to SSR.
Again, undoubtedly true.
However, it ignores several facts about the JC. While the majority of users are between 14 and 21, the vast majority of users would also prefer this site to be targetted at teens or above(Both from census polls, which while straw in their nature are all we have to go by).
Also consider that the 30 percent here between the ages of 14 and 17, might still be kids by some, but they are teenagers, highschoolers, with all that implies. At that point it is fairly inconceivable to my mind that they had not come across homosexuality in some form, or at the very least have developed firm views unlikely to be changed by the mere fact this site allows SSR fanfics.
While Josh does not mention another point related to this, I will respond to it. There has been an arguement that sheltered children may not have come across homosexuality and thus be unprepared for it here. However, if we consider that the parent of a sheltered child must take an interest in what the child sees and hears directly proportional to their level of shelteredness, then it seems to me to preclude that such a sheltered person would be allowed to acess the JC at all, where even if SSR is not allowed, other things would cause the parent to say no.

4. It would open the JC to hate mail/criticism/ boycotts.
Again true... to an extent.
Hate mail can not be seen as an excuse to not do something. As the rules fo the JC state, by flaming someone you lose all right to take part in any discussion. Why si it then that if the flaming takes place outside of the JC it must be given greater credence? Allowing yourself to be bullied by hatemail leaves you in a state whereanyone willing to throw invectives at you forces you to change your policy. I would hope that no one has done so because they refuse to allow SSR fanfic, however I can not gaurentee it because people at the extremes of both sides are likely to resort to vile threats. As for criticism, can anyone honestly say they aren't being criticized now? All three of these can and are used by both

 

I voted: "Yes, with the same limitations as listed in the FAQ for depiction of adult hetrosexual relations." Also, all slash stories should have the pairing in the thread title, and a clear warning in the header that says "This story portrays a same-sex relationship. If your are offended by this kind of thing, don't read it!", or something similar to that. In this way, those who don't want to read slash (or don't want their kids to read slash) would be able to avoid it.

Because that's the thing that the anti-slashers should keep in mind: Allowing slash to be posted does not equal forcing people to read it. If you don't want to read slash for whatever reason, that's fine. Simply don't read the stories that are marked as slash. And if you don't want your children to read slash, don't allow them to. As others have said, parents shouldn't let kids use the internet without proper supervision in the first place.

(Personally, if I had kids, I'd rather have them find out about the fact that same-sex relationships exist from a well-written, PG-rated Han/Luke or Ton/Face fic than from dirty talk on the school yard.)


Also, please keep in mind that we are not talking about allowing porn/smut/NC-17 stuff. We are talking about allowing PG stuff. Stories where the same sex couples hold hands, gaze into each other's eyes, maybe kiss. (And if even that offends you, you don't have to read it, like I said above.) Slash does not equal porn/smut. There are PG-level slash fics out there, some of them very beautiful and well-written. Excluding slash means excluding a whole bunch of good fic.


I am pro-allowing PG-level slash because I am against excluding good fic because of double standards. Some have said they feel offended by slash because their religion says that homosexuality is wrong. Well, the Bible also says that adultery is a sin. Yet there is no rule against obidala fics where Padmé is romancing with Obi-Wan while being married to Ani. That's what I mean by "double standard".

As for the argument "we don't want slash because it would lead to too much controversy and flaming" - the JC fanfic boards have (thank God!) a culture/mood that is peaceful and civil, and I don't see why this should change if slash was allowed. Right now, we don't see anti-obidala ppl. go into obidala fic threads and flame. We don't see K/J fans flame J/J fics. We don't see Mara-haters flame L/M mush fics. So how likely is it really that anti-slashers would flame slash fic?


EDIT/addition: farraday has made some good points.

 

Josh's statement lists two or three reasons, and they should be addressed--not undercut, but addressed. They need to be assumed to be valid concerns, and you show how each concern would be addressed to avoid headaches and conflict should he choose to change his mind, and show where his assumptions are possibly empirically mistaken (as opposed to making comments about whether or not they're morally mistaken).

Well, in my earlier long post, I did address all of those. I showed solutions to those that warranted solutions, and the rest I showed how they could either be ignored or avoided.

 

Well, in my earlier long post, I did address all of those. I showed solutions to those that warranted solutions, and the rest I showed how they could either be ignored or avoided.

And I think that's pretty much the approach that should go into a petition. A little research about how other site masters go about the ignoring and avoiding would be helpful.

 

Please don't insult people that don't agree with your point of view - those that disagree with you about slash or homosexuality are not stupid, ignorant, uneducated, or overreacting.

In my opinion, doing these things completely and utterly invalidates your words, if you cannot even have respect for someone who disagrees with you.

 

Please don't insult people that don't agree with your point of view - those that disagree with you about slash or homosexuality are not stupid, ignorant, uneducated, or overreacting.

Agreed. And, though it hasn't occurred here, this would for the opposite point of view as well.

Let's avoid the personal judgments altogether.

 

First of all, even if I don't approve of someone's lifestyle doesn't mean that I alienate them. I'm sorry that there are people who do. That's not right. But just becuase I don't like something doesn't mean that I'm out to get everyone who does that. I know a couple people who are bi or homosexual, and I'm not all over their backs. I still love them as people, as my friends, as my family.

Second of all, this whole thing about intolerance can be switched around. People who are supportive of slash fiction are being intolerant of the people who don't want it here. Let's face it, if you have a strong opinion/belief/whatever, you're going to appear intolerant to the other side because you believe you are right, otherwise you wouldn't have that opinion.

Third of all, religion shouldn't be brought into this. You cannot disregard someone's opinion just because it has connection to thier religious beliefs anymore than you can ignore someone's opinion because they don't have religious beliefs. In a way, everyone has religious beliefs - you either believe there is a God or there isn't. But either way, you're putting value on the person's opinion because of their relgious views. That's not right. That's discrimination too. You can't go "oh, of course you're not going to want slash. You're a Christian."

 

Yes, Syntax, you have said that you're a criminal justic major. Many times.

I think part of the problem here is that this is a moral issue. The one side wants to allow slash because they think it's okay. The other side doesn't because they think is wrong - not that the person should be alienated or despised, but that the act they are committing is not natural or right. That's why there's this discussion about family-friendly too. There may not be a compromise because it's all but impossible to compromise on moral issues.

Do other people think it has a bais as a moral issue, or is that just my opinion?

 

Do other people think it has a bais as a moral issue, or is that just my opinion?

I'm positive it is, but we're not here to talk about the morality of homosexuality--again, belongs in the Senate.

On the question of slash, I think we're trying to see what the majority of the community here thinks, and maybe get the info together to draft a petition. If people who disagree would like to draft a counter-petition, same rules apply.

 

I agree with Syntax, farraday, and Liz Skywalker.

There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, and it is possible for SSR fanfics to be PG-13 or under. Kids under 13 are technically not allowed here, so we shouldn't cater to "illegals". A simple warning will keep people who do not want to be exposed to SSR away.

I can see where Joshua Griffin is coming from, but, in the end, his reasoning is flawed. "I'm afraid of getting hate mail"-oh, boo-hoo, it's not like somebody's gonna stab you. Discrimination is illegal, and, in my opinion, highly immoral.

EDIT: I mispele ouser naames.

 

Except that a lot of states allow discrimination in this case, because they see homosexuality as a choice, not an automatic, like race or gender. The ACLU would be on your side in this issue, but a lot of the legal system might not.

This is not my opinion, however, and I do see this as discrimination. Just pointing out what the counterargument to your "discrimination in this case is illegal" argument is. That doesn't make discrimination any less wrong, of course.

 

Except that a lot of states allow discrimination in this case

Um.. not that I know of.

I think part of the problem here is that this is a moral issue. The one side wants to allow slash because they think it's okay. The other side doesn't because they think is wrong - not that the person should be alienated or despised, but that the act they are committing is not natural or right. That's why there's this discussion about family-friendly too. There may not be a compromise because it's all but impossible to compromise on moral issues.

100% of that is irrelevant - moral or not, no one is forcing anyone to read SSR fics. How do people who think it's not "right" leave their own homes, for risk of walking outside and being within a 2-mile radius of someone who either is homosexual, or supports the homosexual lifestyle?
The situation I just described is no different from the one on this board -- no one is forcing you to agree with or support the homosexual lifestyle, and you can ignore it if it makes itself present. Likewise, no one would be forcing you to read SSR fics, or to agree with or support them.
Where's the difference? I'm not seeing it.

Please don't insult people that don't agree with your point of view - those that disagree with you about slash or homosexuality are not stupid, ignorant, uneducated, or overreacting.

I am yet to see that happen. Care to provide an example?

In my opinion, doing these things completely and utterly invalidates your words, if you cannot even have respect for someone who disagrees with you.

Who is "you" in the above phrase? Nowhere has anyone said that anyone else's opinion is somehow "wrong". Quite the contrary, in fact, and I can provide quotes to back it up.

 

I'm sorry, I meant the Federal gov't; From the ACLU page:

"No federal law prevents a person from being fired or refused a job on the basis of sexual orientation."

I'm guessing this carries over to discrimination at large, but I could be wrong.