ST Do you think more people will warm up to the ST 15-20 years from now?

They’ll warm to it if they’re wearing hats!

 

Mines not working.

 

As you said, the ST had a better critical reception and box office than the PT. Considering that those two are (usually) the measuring stick for success in the film industry....are lower toy/merch sales something to be incredibly concerned about?

I mean, 1997's Batman and Robin may have sold a lot of Batman toys/merch...yet, the movie was a critical and commercial failure and is viewed as such.

As some one with two children under the age of 14, I can personally attest that my kids, and their friends, just seem to be less into toys and merchandise than I was as a kid. They are much more into ipads, youtube, and online gaming. So, I am not sure if toy/merch sales point to anything more than successful marketing of said merchandise.

I dunno. As has been pointed out over and over perception of the PT has grown into a more positive thing in the decades since its initial release. As time goes on there is no reason to believe that the same won't occur with the ST.

 

There are plenty of reasons why it won't occur when looking at details and context. If one believes that the PT SW magically recovered so ST SW will magically recover then fine. But the investment in the PT by LFL then is nothing like the investment in the ST by LFL now.

The bad misread by Iger/KK was that the SW IP and brand was bullet proof. Obviously not the case and the people now in charge understand that.

 

The irony of being an SJW, or a right wing loon, is that both sides believe they have good intentions, and both sides believe the other is evil. The fact that "treating everyone the same" and being "color blind" is now being viewed as a right wing position only goes to show how when either side is too extreme and goes too far, they can actually turn against the very values they claim to uphold. It should be obvious to anyone who has been around long enough that all things need balance. When you have extreme SJWs at the helm, of course their intentions are positive. But the extreme and misguided nature of what they're trying to do winds up creating Reylo, and it winds up showing compassion for Kylo, it turns Luke into a bitter old man?, it turns characters like Finn and Poe into feckless losers and characters like Rose, Leia and Holdo into morons. The notion that anyone would claim that Disney and those in charge who did this were right wing is such a HEINOUS LIE, that it's exactly the kind of crap SJWs would spew out about a company that has done everything it can do to try to satisfy SJWs for the last several years. But no, instead of recognizing what's going on, we're gonna pretend Disney is right wing now? IMO, everything bad about the ST can be traced back to the decision to dump Lucas' treatment, which was done primarily to satisfy SJWs.

 

if the sides we’re choosing between are supporting social justice issues and not supporting social justice issues, well then I know which side I’m choosing, and it’s not the side advocating against social justice issues, **** them

and no, there’s no good people on the side that are actively opposed to supporting social justice issues

 

I hear what you are saying. The PT's rep was sort of rehabbed by Lucasfilm's investment in the era/ip in the years afterwards. Thus, the PT was buoyed by The Clone Wars, ancillary materials, etc.

As has been stated, we aren't really seeing this kind of activity/continuation for the ST. That said, Is this really an indictment of the ST? That Disney views the critical/commercial success of the ST as "not enough" or a "failure?

Could it it be that, rather than being evidence of ST dissatisfaction from fans/Disney, it has more to with all the other SW irons Disney has in the fire?

Let's examine the merchandise claim:

As @-NaTaLie- pointed out, the (overall) ST had better critical reception and box office than the PT. On its face, it would seem that Disney/Lucasfilm would want to continue to explore/exploit the ST era and put out materials, shows, games, toys based in and about that era. Yet they are aren't really. Why?

Is this lack of new ST material irrefutable evidence that the ST films/characters didn't connect with audiences like the PT, or OT did? The commercial/critical success of the ST would seemingly contradict this. Certainly the ST didn't satisfy some people/fans/etc, yet the same could easily ( to a larger extent) be said about the PT.

We saw Lucasfilm saturate the market almost exclusively with PT stuff during the PT era. This was NEVER the case with the ST. Why? I think the situations are different.

1. Look at toy/merch buying trends throughout the years. 1977 to now. Simply put: Kids aren't buying toys like they used to. The days of Toys R Us are over. Toys with ties to an IP are often aimed more at adult collectors or parents than they are children.

2. One must be wary of using merch/toy sales metrics from 2 (or 3) different eras and expect direct correlation in trends. For example, when Episode 1 premiered, SW merch has just been reintroduced into the mainstream 2 years prior. Before 1996/7 there was very very little Star Wars merch to be found anywhere. One had to go to comic book/hobby specialty shops. Unlike now, SW wasn't constantly visible/obtainable at retail stores*. This stands in stark contrast to the Disney/ST era where SW merchandise had been in constant production and constantly available since the late 90's.

*I know I certainly bought a ton of Episode 1 stuff assuming SW toys/merch might dry up like they did in the mid 80's.

So, while lagging ST merch sales may be the reason why Disney took it's foot off the pedal for ST, couldn't it be that this was the plan all along?

Isn't it just as, if not more, likely that Disney is moving on to other aspects/areas/eras of SW because they want to exploit their new IP to the fullest extent?

Fact is, as an IP, SW is a lot more evergreen/ripe after TROS in 2020 than it was after Episode 3 in in 2005.

In 2005, Star Wars was seemingly wrapped up. There were to be no more movies coming out. Sure, there were rumors of a Star Wars TV show, and it was (maybe) in the earliest stages of development, but it was only whispers coming from fan forums, or SW Insider magazine. It's be 3 years until TCW would come out.

In immediate the years after Revenge of the Sith, the SW brand was kind of where it was after Return of the Jedi: The movies were over. The general public moved on. The fans had comics, cartoons, toys, and video games left over. So, when Clone Wars came about...it gave SW (and the PT) a much needed boost** as an IP.

Compare that to the Disney Era where (along with the ST) there were/are several movies, shows, games, all in production at the same time. The Disney Era was never going to focus exclusively on the ST no matter how well the movies did, or what the perception was. While I think it's easy to view the lack of continued ST era as evidence of a failure, I think this is a major case of confirmation bias.

**Consider: Even though it was well received, the Clone Wars didn't do much theatrically. More importantly, Lucasfilm had been continuously devoted to the PT era with most of it's merch/programming...yet The TPM re-release was objectively, a commercial failure.

Isn't it curious that TPM 3d re-release failed to come close the fervor that accompanied the Special Editions of 1997?

Using the same logic some apply to the ST and merchandise/programing, this would be a vicious indictment of the failure of the PT. Would it not?

 

None of those flaws remotely arose because of 'SJWs'. That's a bad, bad argument to make. Word to the wise, but actual progressives don't like the way Reylo idolises abuse narratives. They don't like the marginalisation and stereotyping of minority characters, or the poor strawmanning of feminist ones. Disney is one of the largest corporations in the world. They are a business, and money is the only thing they consider. Shallow appeals to underrepresented groups can be both something a positive (yay, more diverse stories, characters, and creators telling their own stories), but the way the ST ended up it was all twisted backwards, being used a fig leaf while the actual substance of the works didn't follow up and sustain the positive ideals.

Being 'colour blind' is a great example of this dichotomy. On the one hand, a simplistic view sees that, yes, we are all human beings underneath and thus deserving of dignity. But ignoring people's actual material lives ends up erasing unique cultural identities and reinforcing the dominant majority status quo. A degree of 'colour sightedness' is necessary in some way to even begin to address problems in society.

Of all things, Steven Universe did a really frank short on the topic, appreciating the complexity of the subject:


And enough of that both sides crap, ok. The 'left', powerless as it mostly is in the modern world (unfortunately) largely desires equality of all people, the spreading of healthcare, green climate proposals and redistribution of wealth to those in need. Sure, maybe some people are overzealous in that desire, taking more offense at things that is strictly necessary (that recent analysis on the Jedi as a corrupt police force is an interesting one to discuss, since it takes a rather flat view on the Jedi as presented in the PT and OT, who are often opposed to strict government oversight and are an independent order, while also being the target of a politically motivated genocide. It's a good/thorny discussion for another time perhaps), but hey, that's what most fan arguments end up as anyway. Meanwhile over on the right wing, we see embraces of 'traditionalism', anti-LGBT rights, tax cuts for the wealthy, increased militarisation, science deniers. False 'centrist' equivalencies only serve to bolster the group currently in power, AKA the right wing.

Sorry if that's too political for some people, this subject just really rankles me when it's brought up in such a reductionist way.

 

The irony really is that its rumored that George lucas was actually losing Money on producing the Clone Wars show. Because it was a very expensive show. but he continued to keep it going never the less. Lucas said a long time ago that no matter what happened he would make sure the show got to 100 episodes. it went over that.

That show has perhaps become more popular now than it was back when Lucas was producing it.

And that could be because of a number of reasons. I do think fandom can be very shallow. I do often think fans are just as hypocritical as the creators they attack. And i think this is something that has changed since Disney bought Star Wars. You can't be too self-entitled with this franchise anymore. because you will just be left behind.

 

Proof is in the pudding. If money is to be made, corporations invest in it. No one is stopping Disney from doing more with the ST - yet they are choosing to avoid it like the plague for the most part.

Someone can come together with whatever theory they like but actions speak louder than words. Disney under Chapek couldn't wait to be done with the ST and all SW we get will be F&F unless its clearly non-canon like Visions.

I doubt another true "sequel trilogy" will ever be made. Eventually it will be the GL Skywalker Saga and 7-9 will be deemed EU. F&F will tell enough stories with digital OT characters.

 

Its been 2 years. thats not enough time to judge.

The fact we even got those lego specials is fairly quick for the time in-between.

I think you may end up very disappointed if you are looking for signs that that ain't continuing the ST just because nothing has happened 2 years after the last movie.

 

I really NEVER got that from Return of the Jedi. If anything, I thought he just was bored for most of the movie. (This may just be Harrison Ford’s real-life boredom with the character coming across onscreen though.)

I do think Han is less acerbic than he was in the other 2 movies. I no longer think he’s quite in the same “Look, your worshipfulness, let’s get one thing straight, I take orders from just one person- ME!” or “Not entirely stable? Well, I’m glad you’re here to tell me these things. Chewie, take the professor into the back and plug him into the hyperdrive!” mode that he once was, but I still don’t ever see him becoming a particularly warm-hearted or affectionate guy. It’s just a complete 180 for him. (And frankly, I don’t know if I can see Ford pulling it off.)

Again, it’s easier for me to picture him as something of an Owen Lars-type. A bit gruff, not particularly demonstrative, but well-meaning overall. I also get the impression that domestic life would probably bore Han, and I really don’t see him as a diplomat or a politician. I always imagined that he remained a cargo pilot. (I wonder if he actually did a few smuggling missions on the side even before Ben turned, as a bit of a midlife crisis “recapturing former glory”-type thing, sorta how some 50-year-old men will suddenly decide to buy a sports car.)

He’s less acerbic (again, he doesn’t snap as he used to, no pithy insults like, “Laugh it up, fuzzball!” or “Where did you dig up that old fossil?”), but while he’s a bit mellower, I wouldn’t quite call him “warm”.

He sorta has some goofball moments, but actually seeing him be warm, affectionate, demonstrative, etc. is such a 180 that it’s pretty unbelievable. It’s the reason Irvin Kershner and Harrison Ford changed “I love you too” to “I know”. Because Han would never say “I love you too”.

 

@DarthFixxxer @Scoffed-Gherkin @godisawesome

Re: Han Solo being warm/fuzzy/acerbic/etc.

For obvious reasons, I always viewed Han as being like Indiana Jones when it comes to his relationships. Indy loves his father, Marion, Marcus, Mutt, Short Round, and even Sallah. Yet, he's usually shown as being incredibly sarcastic and has only a few "tender" moments with any of these.

Specifically, I equate Han and Leia's dynamic to that of Indy and Marion.

While many of the details are different, the general tone/vibe is the same. Indy had a loooooong history with Marion. Yet, there was contention/estrangement/mis-communication, etc. Like Han and Leia, Marion and Indy genuinely love each other....but it's not always portrayed as being warm and fuzzy. It's a lot of bickering, banter, with some genuine tender moments mixed in.

 

To be fair, I see what you’re saying, and I do think he’s probably become a bit more emotionally perceptive since the original trilogy.

To be fair, I do think Han is likely more aware than Jones Sr. was. I do think he probably believes that he could’ve been a better father to Ben, and that he probably feels some regret and guilt over what happened.

Well, I mean it’s the Obi-Wan thing. Obi-Wan is much warmer and gentler with Luke than he was with Anakin. (And similarly, Obi-Wan does blame himself for what happened with Anakin.)

I agree, and this is part of where I think the story is a bit half-assed. Remember, Luke’s adopted father, Owen Lars, comes off as being gruff and stern, but while there does appear to be some tension between Luke and Owen, Luke turns out fine in the end.

I can buy that there would be tension between Han and Ben, and I can buy that Han might’ve been an imperfect father. I don’t buy that Han was ever SO bad a father that it permanently messed up Ben and made him evil. (And I really have a hard time believing Leia’s son could ever turn out like that.)

 

I feel like you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying Reylo is an SJW concept. It's not. It's a young adult Twilight audience thing. No doubt. But it came about because Rey is not a Solo/Skywalker. And that came about as a result of SJW mentality. If you disagree with me, it should be about that. I'm not saying every stupid thing in the ST is a direct attempt at satisfying SJWs.

For instance, Luke being a grumpy cynical jerkoff. I'm not saying they made Luke grumpy for SJW purposes. I'm saying they had Luke reject the Jedi and everything they were about because of SJW, and that led to him being grumpy.

Rey was specifically not made a legacy character for SJW purposes. It was about inherited power. That led to a thousand stupid reverberations in the ST. Why the hell was the Star Wars sequel trilogy ruined by a stupid decision like that? Because for Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson the ideology was more important than the story. The statement they were choosing to make was more important than delivering to the fans the obvious, intuitive answer to Rey's identity. They knew it would be unpopular, they knew it wasn't what the vast majority of fans wanted, they FOR DAMN SURE KNEW IT WASN'T WHAT LUCAS WANTED, but they did it because they decided they knew what was important. And some people liked what they did and agreed with what they were trying to say...but the majority did not. And now Disney has done a complete about face.

One thing is for sure, Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni are not driven by any modern day, socio-political trends. They are clearly interested in classic mythological storytelling. It only took about two minutes watching the first episode of the Mandalorian to see we were in better hands.

 

I really do not want to agree so much with the above post, because socio-economically @Obironsolo and I are probably on opposite ends, relatively anyway, but if we remove all the mentions of "SJW" and "SJW politics", which for me are invalid terminology anyway, then I can't disagree with any of the rest.

And yes, Luke paid the price of being an old white male, even if that was only 5% of why he paid the price. Ironically, they still made him an alpha-male in their minds, and the one to tell Rey what to do. A trainwreck, regardless of where anyone stands politically.

 

And Kylo got a free pass for being a young white man.

I don’t see your point.

 

And thats what Star Wars should be.

 

Unless you are very wealthy, we're not on opposite sides socio-economically. Not that there's anything wrong with you having money if you do.

Again, you're trying to attribute every bad choice to a SJW point of view. I'm not saying that.

Also, and I suppose this is could be construed as a circular argument, but I don't think SJW's points of view are even remotely consistent, or united, or logical, so it's no accident that if you have people trying to satisfy SJWs, you're going to have all kinds of divergent, conflated ideas. You're pretending like KK and RJ understand inclusion or feminism to the point where they could have delivered on that. They clearly don't understand because they had their chance. You can't claim they weren't trying. The effort is too obvious to deny. It just didn't work because they are extremists, and extremists are never right. That is just the nature of "social justice" in its modern form. It is a self eating snake and of course you are going to eventually implode, because between avoidance of personal responsibility, envy, and a proud vengefulness that constantly needs new targets. Just my opinion.

 

No, he didn't get a free pass for being a "young white man", he was literally the villain of the trilogy. The bad person. Jeez.