Does anybody still think that George Lucas is a genius?

Any fantastic ideas he hs in the PT films have been borrowed from the EU (Coruscant anyone?).

PPOR.

 

I'll just echo Shelley in the answer to your question.

Yes, it does get a bit fuzzy if you're talking about something as small as moving it to a different country in the twentieth century. An uncredited French version of Psycho would be in iffy territory.

But what if you put it in medieval France instead? A courtesan steals gold from the King and runs to a tavern on the road where she meets an innkeeper), and is killed. Her sister and a knight come looking for her and end up battling the possessed man, who has been taking orders from a demon in the basement...

Or maybe you could set it in ancient Greece, using Procrustes as Norman Bates (that is the literary precursor, now that I think of it; why not go all the way back?). One of Zeus's lovers makes a break for it, and is killed, etc. Athena and a brave young soldier go to the roadhouse and...

Or you could set it in futuristic outer space. A colony has begun on another planet, and they're unaware that there are already sentient life forms there, but the sentients are parasites. We'll invert the genders this time. A young man who's been dumped by his callous boss one too many times decides to steal her access codes. He makes a run for it and ends up in a strange house. The inhabitant looks human, so he goes ahead and stays. But the inhabitant is really an alien who is eating its human host from the inside out. Young guy gets killed. His brother and a brave female scientist go after him, discover the alien business, and find the body of another human in the basement, already eaten by larvae that have been hatching inside.

Those would be exactly the same story, could filmed frame-for-frame the same, and it would still be different enough that I wouldn't consider it theft. It's clever re-working of the idea (well, not so clever the way I do it, because I'm not especially good at it, but you know what I mean).

 

but in those cases (i assume you are talking about Kurosawa and Ford) they were a few shots done in the same style, and not the whole story, characters, plot, and themes from another work.

Neither was SW.

 

and what you have described there are all remakes, not homages, and they would probably have "Based on 'Psycho' by Robert Bloch" in the credits.

i saw no "based on" or "adapted from" in the credits of Lucas's works.

 

No, they really wouldn't need to. I'm sure that the person doing them would say it in interviews, but no, they aren't remakes. They're re-workings of a plot, but a plot is just a framework. You don't need to put "based on" in them.

 

then its theft, as far as i'm concerned.

btw, your adaptations of Psycho are actually pretty good. you might want to consider setting up a pitch meeting with a studio. seriously!

if they don't get stolen we could work on the scripts together. with all our differences i think we could turn out quite a dynamic screenplay.

i would have to insist on the "Based On" credit, though.

 

Any fantastic ideas he hs in the PT films have been borrowed from the EU (Coruscant anyone?). >>

Huh? Well, I didn't see any Spaarti cylinders on Kamino, no Z-95 Headhunters, Dreadnaughts, married Jedi (save for Anakin), and if the Jedi in the Arena had the ridiculously-overblown Force powers of the EU, the battle would have been over in about 5 minutes...

What "fantastic ideas" are you talking about?

Though even if that were the case, he's merely borrowing from EU writers who first borrowed from him.

-Tim

 

then its theft, as far as i'm concerned.

Well, as long as you're aware that quite a lot of people don't agree with your definition, that's fine.

Thanks for the compliment.

 

The irony though, if there is one, is that GL has become a multi-billionaire on the value of his intellectual property. He aggressively defends his intellectual property from theft. No one but Disney has a licensing empire like his.

This is, I think, the primary reason GL is not more open and candid about his sources of influence, his homages, his borrowings.

 

Of course you do.

I fail to see what is the point of getting all outraged on behalf of Kurosawa when it is clear he never got outraged himself. If you think Lucas is a thief and a hack, why give him your money? I think Anne Rice is a hack who had exactly one good book in her -- her first -- therefore I don't spend my money on her tomes.

 

Who's outraged? I think it's part of what makes Star Wars so interesting. It's layers and layers of interesting stuff. First you have the movies, then you have everything that Lucas and others say about the movies.

Trying to track down every reference to an earlier work in the Star Wars films would be an amazingly fun job. All I'm saying is that Lucas doesn't make that job any easier by being open about his influences.

 

"You come here and give us the literary knowledge of how someone is influenced by another, WOW! I'm sure that no one ever figured that out before."

Well, if the discussion was any indication, it keeps getting said, so a number of reasonable people *must* have figured it out. All I did was add my opinion (which happened to agree with them) to the discussion. This *is* a discussion board, right?

Hm. I've seen "Seven Samurai" many times and a well-worn copy of "A Book of Five Rings" sits on my bookshelves (right alongside Sun Tzu's "The Art of War"). I could easily discuss the influences those works might have had on GL's creation of SW in some more appropriate thread. It would sure beat the socks off of listening to people whine about how GL is evil and heinous because he might have stolen the original concept for SW from some 1958 Japanese B-movie.

I have not seen "Hidden Fortress" but it's already been said that it wasn't set in space, nor did it have lightsabers, etc.. Those words alone are enough to convince me Lucas didn't rip anybody off. Add to that, the summaries of the movie that I've read show only broad similarities in the plotline - pretty much like the similarities between Godzilla and every other monster-destroys-the-city film. Sorry, I still don't see GL as a thief out to make a buck on someone else's idea.

George himself admits how much he loves "Hidden Fortress." If I ever want to consider myself a self-proclaimed expert on his influences I'll find that film and watch it. Until then I'll just have to rely on my limited knowledge of some of his other influences.

 

"Anyone can walk into a room with hundreds of designs and pick what they like. That's not genius, that's having an opinion..."

Words of wisdom indeed. I'd love it if the dvds actually featured all these character, vehicle and set designs but no, instead there's two hours of 'how they made Yoda' instead. (and no Shelley, I don't own them so don't repeat your boring mantra)

"We're Star Wars fans, not necessarily, or by definition, George Lucas fans."

This is the true meaning of the bashers and gusher wars, it's not over Star Wars, but how awful GL has become. I can't believe that any self respecting SW fan would sit through TPM and AOTC and say its good... it's a mystery. Bashers actually care more about Star Wars more, that's why they're complaining when they get second rate films. Gushers are just like GL, with his mentality that it's 'good enough'.

"encountered a number of bashers who look for things to complain about, who claim to be SW fans but never say anything good about them, and who regularly insult those who disagree with them."

Whatever. Read that again and see how hypocritical you are.

"when Lucas originally sat down to write SW, it was so similar to Hidden Fortress that he considered doing a remake. But as he wrote it out, it resembled HF less and less."

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Please make sure your facts are correct before you hit that 'post' button.
He wrote a whole script and chucked it AFTER he had seen Hidden Fortress.


"what is the point of getting all outraged on behalf of Kurosawa when it is clear he never got outraged himself."

In case you haven't noticed, Akira Kurosawa passed away in the 80s. And how do you know whether he did anyway? 'Clear'? I don't think so.

 

>>>> I have not seen "Hidden Fortress" but it's already been said that it wasn't set in space, nor did it have lightsabers, etc.. Those words alone are enough to convince me Lucas didn't rip anybody off. Add to that, the summaries of the movie that I've read show only broad similarities in the plotline - pretty much like the similarities between Godzilla and every other monster-destroys-the-city film. Sorry, I still don't see GL as a thief out to make a buck on someone else's idea.

Until you?ve seen The Hidden Fortress you have no room to talk. Just because it wasn?t set in space, or didn?t have lightsabers doesn?t mean that George didn?t pilfer its story, its characters, and even its musical score.

>>>> In case you haven't noticed, Akira Kurosawa passed away in the 80s. And how do you know whether he did anyway? 'Clear'? I don't think so.

The last film he made was in 1993. Kind of hard to make a movie if you?re dead. Akira Kurosawa died on September 6, 1998. Get your facts straight before you hit the ?post? button.

 

but in those cases (i assume you are talking about Kurosawa and Ford) they were a few shots done in the same style, and not the whole story, characters, plot, and themes from another work.

Shelley replied: "Neither was SW."

by your own admission you have not seen "Hidden Fortress" so your opinion holds zero water.

Reihla, you also have not seen "Hidden Fortress" so how can you comment?

its amazing how quick you are to leap to the defense of Lucas when you simply DO NOT know the facts.

ill repost something from earlier in this thread since it seems some of you missed it:

"It is the sixteenth century, a period of civil wars. A princess, with her family, her retainers, and the clan treasure is being pursued. If they can cross enemy territory and reach a friendly province they will be saved. The enemy knows this and posts a reward for the capture of the princess.

? Donald Richie, The Films of Akira Kurosawa
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It is the thirty-third century, a period of civil wars in the galaxy. A rebel princess, with her family, her retainers, and the clan treasure, is being pursued. If they can cross territory controlled by the Empire and reach a friendly planet, they will be saved. The Sovereign knows this, and posts a reward for the capture of the princess.

? George Lucas, The Star Wars Story Synopsis"

are you starting to see the similarities yet? or do you want to continue ignoring the facts and commenting on a film you have not seen? furthermore, that excerpt does not even go into the character equals of R2 and 3PO, Obi-Wan, Leia, Vader etc.

 

I think the 3 that haven't seen Hidden Fortress need to meet somewhere and watch a copy of the DVD, then you need to watch the Lucas interview where he says that he got things from HF and then goes into how he liked Seven Samurai better and the use of long lenses, etc.

I'm not naming names, but some people are hypocrites. Yeah, there is bashing of Lucas and of his films, I've done some myself, I have also defended Lucas and his films in the past in real life, even if I don't fawn all over him on these boards.
I just think to just defend him when you haven't seen the "evidence" goes to show the zealots from the people that like Lucas, but are willing to admit that everything he's done hasn't been the best work.

I swear, if I ever got to a point of success like that, I think I'd try to distance myself from those fans as much as possible... maybe even discredit them, no one deserves the amount of praise I've heard on these boards when it concerns George Lucas.
I seriously do wonder whether or not people that post here are "plants" by Lucasfilm, if they are, don't expect people to change their opinion.. I think such tactics will eventually backfire.

Back to the issue, I don't think that G.L.'s method of storytelling earns him the "genius" tag.
I say it again an acknowledgement in the credits isn't such a bad thing, is it?

EDIT: For someone that believes in film reservation, it's ironic that he doesn't believe in preserving his influences at the end of the credits of his films.

 

C'mon guys, now you go too far. Did any of these movies have in them lightsabers, the force?


Anyways, the topic at hand, no I don't think GL is a genius because of TPM.

It's a pretty generic story. But George is still ripping from the old star Wars movies and other movies. Nothing new. There's no act of brilliance there.

Some good ideas, but mostly boredom.

I think, George is mostly an intelligent guy who got lucky.

His fate was such, that he was at the right place at the right time.

And he got to meet the right people at the right time.

At the right time, to inspire a generation of fans on their chosen paths.

Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

 

It is the thirty-third century, a period of civil wars in the galaxy. A rebel princess, with her family, her retainers, and the clan treasure, is being pursued. If they can cross territory controlled by the Empire and reach a friendly planet, they will be saved. The Sovereign knows this, and posts a reward for the capture of the princess.

That sure doesn't sound like the plot of the movie we got, DrEvazan. I mean, a couple of details are the same, like rebel princess and Empire, but that's about it.

Is that from one of Lucas's earliest drafts? If so, you are really, really, REALLY reaching to prove that Lucas stole everything from HF. And you're also ignoring what I said earlier -- that when Lucas was writing out SW, at first it was so similar to HF that he considered doing a remake, but with each subsequent draft it resembled HF less and less.

By the way -- have you seen ANH? You claim you have, but if you actually think that summary of Kurosawa's film and ANH proves that Lucas stole everything, word for word, from Kurosawa, then I'm not sure I believe you.

At the beginning of ANH, it is a time of civil wars. Leia, a rebel princess, NOT with her family and retainers, and NOT carrying her family treasure, is being pursued because she has the plans to the Death Star. She is not fleeing to a safe planet to escape some sovereign who wants her treasure, she is going to Tatooine (not exactly a "safe planet") to bring Obi Wan Kenobi to her home planet of Alderaan. Darth Vader, right hand man to the Emperor, knows she has the plans and has just captured her.

Words of wisdom indeed. I'd love it if the dvds actually featured all these character, vehicle and set designs but no, instead there's two hours of 'how they made Yoda' instead. (and no Shelley, I don't own them so don't repeat your boring mantra)

Odd that you personally attack me and then go on to claim I personally attack others. And you call me a hypocrite?

As for boring mantras -- look who's talking!

 

Until you?ve seen The Hidden Fortress you have no room to talk. Just because it wasn?t set in space, or didn?t have lightsabers doesn?t mean that George didn?t pilfer its story, its characters, and even its musical score.

Post proof or retract.

The last film he made was in 1993. Kind of hard to make a movie if you?re dead. Akira Kurosawa died on September 6, 1998. Get your facts straight before you hit the ?post? button.

In other words, he had plenty of time to go after Lucas for stealing his ideas, but he didn't.

 

Shelley, DON'T watch Hidden Fortress, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT watch this film!

You are too biased for it to have any impact on you as far as ANH or Lucas is concerned.

 

Ah, once again you resort to patronizingly acting like you know my thoughts, Punisher.

 

Hey Shells, you've got to be on the Lucasfilm
payroll, if you can't see the obvious glaring similarites in that synopsis ,or you are completley delusional.

 

I don't need to know your thoughts, I can see from your comments that you won't have a open mind.

You won't watch the film and then come back and say, "YES, G.L. based ANH on Hidden Fortress."
The funny thing is that G.L. says he used the film as a basis, so that just means your calling your favorite filmmaker a liar.

It really makes little difference to me. I'm just saying that a defender of the Lucas & SW is just as capable of being close minded as a detractor of Lucas & SW.

 

I think the only thing patronizing is keeping on PPOR-ing people's opinions.

Doesn't prove an argument.

Also, family treasures does not have to literally mean "family treasures". It could mean "Death Star plans" as well. Palpy's family treasures.

Of course stealing "family treasures" could mean something altogether different as well.


I will admit I haven't seen Hidden Fortress myself. Sounds like an interesting idea.

I'll be on my way. Cheerio.

 

HF is the rosetta stone of SW, if more kids watched it before they posted half assed ideas in the EP3 forum that place would be more interesting.