Does Sith always equate with evil?

Forgive me if this has been discussed to death (I haven't seen it discussed), but I read one person's opinion that Sith weren't necessarily evil, which I somewhat agree with. Sith rely upon their passion, but passion is not necessarily evil. Love, for instance. So, in theory, could someone out of compassion act in the same way as Jedi, except using compassion for all life as a focus for their power? Or would they still be using the dark side, or perhaps come to accept the loss of those they love as unacceptable, as Vader did, and slip into anger, hate, and aggression? I suppose this is somewhat like Vergere's theory (which I have seen is accepted as being incorrect), although I don't see how using your positive emotions will be using the dark side.

 

The Sith are indeed evil, which is one of the core ideas of the movies (and all the EU). Sith rely upon all the negative emotions to fuel the dark side, for quick and easy power. That's the essense of their strength, while the Jedi guard from those emotions and stay away from the dark side of the force. And the Sith cause the balance of the force to shift.

It's not Sith who use compassion, it's Jedi. Compassion, love all these are traits of the Jedi, and the Sith find them as weaknesses. Using the positive emotions is what Jedi do, not Sith. The Sith do the very opposite, because that's required for drawing on the dark side of the force.

 

Ah, it was my understanding that the Sith relied upon emotions in general, whereas the Jedi didn't rely upon emotions at all, and detached themselves. Anakin's description of the Jedi and Sith seemed to reinforce that, since he said the Sith rely on their passion.

 

Remember, Anakin further explains what passion - "They think inward, only about themselves". And we could see how Palpatine is encouraging Anakin to use his negative emotions in detail in the novelization. They never use any positive emotions, in fact it would make them weaker because they rely on the dark side of the force.

 

this is touched upon by Dooku in Dark Rendezvous (I swear, that book touches on everything =P). Dooku admits that the Sith do not have compassion, or love. they might lust, but that's it. and I think the way they kill shows no compassion.
anyways, pick up DR, it really is a great, reflective book, with lots of action to boot.

 

Their also cowards..Lucas likes making the typcial cowardly villains that will always loose, that look and/or act strong and tough,but are really cheap idiots.

Even Vader suffers from this in ROTJ,when hes on the floor holding up his hand, begging for his life.

Dooku was a coward in ROTS,which I find very hard to believe coming from such a great Jedi master turned Powerful Sith Lord..The look of surprise when Palpatine orders his death,was also a look of fear..Being a Warrior, he should of held his head up high and died like a warrior.

Sidious was also a major coward and loon,begging and weeping like a litte girl both during the Windu fight and Yoda..I couldnt help but laugh.

 

There is no dark side... Only how you use the force in a Dark way...

Yoda, if he wanted to, could let rip with Force Lightning and Choke Holds. But he doesn't, not because the "Light Side" doesn't allow him to, but because he has trained his mind so much that he would never consider doing it.

That's why falling to the dark side is so easy... it just requires you to let slip of your control, use the force to bend reality in a way that you know is wrong, but you want to do it that way because the Power of the Force is so great when let go with such unrestricted fury...

It's why Sith are generally, one on one, more powerful than a Jedi. Jedi don't like to go overboard, and they don't draw on the Force in such powerful ways.

So yes, Sith are evil. EVIL.

 

There is no dark side... Only how you use the force in a Dark way...

Total contradiction, both G-level on all levels and C-level, incluing all of the EU.

Yoda, if he wanted to, could let rip with Force Lightning and Choke Holds. But he doesn't, not because the "Light Side" doesn't allow him to, but because he has trained his mind so much that he would never consider doing it.

Force lightning and choke etc. are inherent dark side powers, fueled by negative emotions, again canon. I highly doubt Yoda of all people would consider doing it.

That's why falling to the dark side is so easy... it just requires you to let slip of your control, use the force to bend reality in a way that you know is wrong, but you want to do it that way because the Power of the Force is so great when let go with such unrestricted fury...

The dark side of the force is quite real, as real as it gets. It seduces and twists the user. The negative emotions summon it, lead to it, and it's quite difficult to get back once you're fallen.

It's why Sith are generally, one on one, more powerful than a Jedi. Jedi don't like to go overboard, and they don't draw on the Force in such powerful ways.

The Sith have several agrressive dark side powers, and focus on agression, while the Jedi use the force only to defend, never to attack.

So yes, Sith are evil. EVIL.

Indeed.

 

this is touched upon by Dooku in Dark Rendezvous (I swear, that book touches on everything =P). Dooku admits that the Sith do not have compassion, or love. they might lust, but that's it. and I think the way they kill shows no compassion.
anyways, pick up DR, it really is a great, reflective book, with lots of action to boot.



Dark Rendezvous > Excellence

 

While I disagree with most of the last two posts, yeah, Sith always=evil. The problem with the Jedi's lack of any real emotion in the PT is part of their failure, and is not necessarily an indication that any emotion=dark side.

 

While I disagree with most of the last two posts, yeah, Sith always=evil. The problem with the Jedi's lack of any real emotion in the PT is part of their failure, and is not necessarily an indication that any emotion=dark side.

They lead to the dark side of the force, when the negative emotions are used they're using the dark side of the force. Of course, it's only g-level canon The Jedi use the positive emotions, but in the PT they're all arrogant and headstrong, even the great ones, "even the older, more experienced ones".

 

How is what I said contradictory to the notions of the Movies?

I clearly remember ESB and RotJ, where Frankie wants to Turn Luke to the Dark Side. How do they do it? They want him to LOSE Control. Why does Yoda NOT want Luke to fight in ESB? His Friends will make Luke Lose Control. Vader tells Luke something that would put him Most emotionally off balance- HE is his father. Throughout the entire Original Trilogy it shows the great difference between someone who uses the Force with restraint in mind (Jedi) and someone who doesn't (Sith). PT doesn't say much about the matter.

Emperor: "I feel your anger. Strike me down. Strike me down and your journey to the dark side will be Complete." He Wants Luke to lose his cool and give into the hate, the urge to Use the Force in an evil way.

Thorughout the entire Movie Luke has been Fighting the urge to use the Force in an evil way- He refuses to fight Vader... he tries not to be goaded by the Emperor. When he finally goes into a rage and uses the dark side, he not only schools Vader but he looks down at the stump of Vader's hand and his own, and he realises that he has lost control, too, and THAT is the path to the Dark Side.

 

The Sith, despite having good intentions at times (Anakin), use their powers to gain influence over "normal" beings. They believe that they are better than anyone else, while Jedi (presumably) do not.

 

How is what I said contradictory to the notions of the Movies?

In simple terms, in every way You saying there is no dark side = direct contradiction of the movies, what GL has explicitly said, and all of the EU.

I clearly remember ESB and RotJ, where Frankie wants to Turn Luke to the Dark Side. How do they do it? They want him to LOSE Control. Why does Yoda NOT want Luke to fight in ESB? His Friends will make Luke Lose Control. Vader tells Luke something that would put him Most emotionally off balance- HE is his father. Throughout the entire Original Trilogy it shows the great difference between someone who uses the Force with restraint in mind (Jedi) and someone who doesn't (Sith). PT doesn't say much about the matter.

Emperor: "I feel your anger. Strike me down. Strike me down and your journey to the dark side will be Complete." He Wants Luke to lose his cool and give into the hate, the urge to Use the Force in an evil way.


So? "Use the force in an evil way?" That's using the dark side of the force by using your negative emotions. Remember these lines?

"The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it.
Give in to your anger. With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant."

"Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you."

"Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"

"But beware of the dark side. Anger. fear, aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight."

"You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

"That place...is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is."

"Luke, don't give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."

"This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."



Thorughout the entire Movie Luke has been Fighting the urge to use the Force in an evil way- He refuses to fight Vader... he tries not to be goaded by the Emperor. When he finally goes into a rage and uses the dark side, he not only schools Vader but he looks down at the stump of Vader's hand and his own, and he realises that he has lost control, too, and THAT is the path to the Dark Side.

Umm...not really..losing control of one's calm self is actually part of losing to the dark side. The main things are using the negative feelings and aggression.

"The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger when he?s fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he fights his father he?s fighting in anger, therefore begins to use the dark side of the Force, and therefore sort of succumbs to the dark side of the Force. It?s basically a confrontation between two people and one of them doesn?t want to fight, and the other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end when he gives up and they really do fight, what?s happening there is that ultimately Luke is turning to the dark side, and all is going to be lost.." - GL, RoTJ.

There you go

 

That's such a pedantic issue of semantics I find it impossible you even wanted to pick a fight with my interpretation.

I said the "Dark Side" as in a separate branch of the Force Doesn't exist. Of course the Dark Side exists! The very fact that angry people tend to flip out and choke people with the force is evidence enough of this!

But what doesn't exist is that there is a separate discipline which uses a different kind of Force. There is no "Dark Force." When Count Dooku gives in to the dark side, he goes to Frankie. Why? There are things with the force he's never tried before, Like Lightning, or whatever.

It's like two interpretations to using one tool. One uses restraint and clear thought as the way to use it- the other uses hatred, anger and Power worship. Hence, Light and Dark Side. But there is ONLY one Force.

Edit: Since we're talkign SEMANTICS here, the words "Dark SIDE" imply that it is a separate facet of the ONE object or thing- the Force.

 

Ok, perhaps I should have looked at when my reply was posted after posting it. I actually did not disagree with the previous two posts, but the 2 above them.

LijoT, you I agreed with. At least today

 

That's such a pedantic issue of semantics I find it impossible you even wanted to pick a fight with my interpretation.

I never wanted to, nor want to pick a fight with anything. The reason I responded to your "no dark side" statement is because there're some who outright deny the existence, not aware of/ignoring canon.

I said the "Dark Side" as in a separate branch of the Force Doesn't exist. Of course the Dark Side exists! The very fact that angry people tend to flip out and choke people with the force is evidence enough of this!

It's not a seperate branch of the force, it's part of what the force is. The term "dark side of the force" isn't just thrown in for nothing. And the choke and lightning are inherent dark side powers. There're no lightside equivalent of such powers, again canon.

But what doesn't exist is that there is a separate discipline which uses a different kind of Force. There is no "Dark Force." When Count Dooku gives in to the dark side, he goes to Frankie. Why? There are things with the force he's never tried before, Like Lightning, or whatever.

Certainly there aren't 2 different forces. I never said there is. There is one force with 2 sides, the good and the evil side. When Count Dooku gives into the dark side, he gains the dark side powers, quick and easy. It's not "Dark Force" but "The dark side of the force".

It's like two interpretations to using one tool. One uses restraint and clear thought as the way to use it- the other uses hatred, anger and Power worship. Hence, Light and Dark Side. But there is ONLY one Force.

What you just mentioned is regarding usage alone and it's correct in that sense. And you are right that there is only one force. However, it's a canon fact that the one force has 2 sides, the light and the dark side. The best way to show an example is the Buddhist/Zen/Taoist belief of the Tao. The Tao is one, the ultimate principle of the universe, made up of the opposites Yin and the Yang. There's no Tao without either the Yin or the Yang. Both are part of what the Tao is.

The significance of the negative emotions is that they are used to summon, they lead into the dark side of the force, that which is used as the fuel. And it's a vital factor in learning many inherent dark side powers.

Of course, these aren't my ideas, I'm merely stating canon matter

LijoT, you I agreed with. At least today

 

Hmm...I just had a thought while reading this and another thread. The Force is sentient to some extent, it has a will, and it doesn't like darkness (i.e. Palpatine, Sith, general badness) Even though the Force doesn't like what the Dark Side does, that does not implicitly mean that when one says "The will of the Force" or anything of that nature, that they are talking about the light side of the Force.

In an attempt to keep this short and simple:

The will of the Force (The Force in general) = The Force

not, The will of the Force (The Force in general) = The Light Side of the Force, completely excluding the Dark Side of the Force.

The Force is looking out for itself, and what it wants and desires and promotes is generally referred to as the Light Side of the Force. The Dark Side still exists, but it is something separate and different, not inherently part of the Force that has a sentient will, but which is tied to the Force and in constant interaction with it. The Dark Side is just simply different, does not have a will or a sentience, and when a darksider thinks that they are being guided by the Dark Side, they are using the Force seen through the Dark Side's filter. The relationship between light side and dark side is not so much Ying vs. Yang, but ferret vs. carbon monoxide poisoning.

Because humans and Force users are so simple and limited beings, they are not able to tell the difference between these higher beings, that is to say, the sentient Force and the tarnish that it is trying to get rid of but can't without the help of the simple beings that it interacts with. To use yet another analogy, humans looking at the Force and the Dark Side is like ants looking at a person and a table. The ant can tell that the person and the table are different, but can't tell that one is just a lump of wood and plastic, while the other is a living, sentient being somewhat like itself, but with a consciousness that is far different and incredibly far beyond its own comprehension. To the ant, its just two potential sources of food that it can go after, one of them slightly different than the other. A Jedi can choose to feed off of the Lightside which contains the Force and its will, or off of the darkside, which for all we know is a chair with a rusty nail sticking out of it that has the potential to give the Force blood poisoning should said divinity sit down on it.

So, the Dark Side does exist, but it is a different creation than the Force/Lightside. By a certain point of view it could be said that the Dark Side does not exist because it is a different creation than the Force, able to conferr great powers onto those that can draw from it and able to scare the Force pretty badly, but it is not a being with a will and a sentience of its own.

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One last analogy and then i'll shut up. I think the following is more relevant than anything I said up above.

In fact, I think that I may have come up with an explination for why returning balance to the Force meant destroying the Dark Side.

The Force is a forest, the Dark Side is a lumber mill. The Forest will over time drop branches and leaves and dead wood which can be taken by us, the humans, and used for energy or, with a great deal of further work, used for construction. The lumber mill is not liked by the Force/Forest, as it is destructive to the Forest. Even though the Forest is bigger and more alive than the lumber mill, the mill is still more powerful than the Force. Humans can also use the lumber mill, which steals bits of the forest and quickly turns it into cheap, nicely-packaged, energy dense and very efficient wooden boards. Every time a human uses the lumber mill, the Forest is damaged a little bit more. Even though the Force would like to, it cannot destroy the big building made of metal, machines, saws, and tools of death and destruction.

Humans who are patient and caring will respect the desires of the Forest, which wants harmony and for life to continue in balance, and only take what wood and fuel is available. Those human

 

"Remember, Anakin further explains what passion - "They think inward, only about themselves". And we could see how Palpatine is encouraging Anakin to use his negative emotions in detail in the novelization. They never use any positive emotions, in fact it would make them weaker because they rely on the dark side of the force."

We also see this in the Shadows of the Empire novel. Vader focuses on his hate and anger enough so he can breathe normally for a few minutes, but the second he feels happy about it, he loses focus and can't breathe.

 

Does Sith always equate with evil?

Possibly.

But can anyone tell me if it's illegal to be a Sith?

 

Why do Sith need to be evil? Nadd ruled a city, but was he evil? The outcast crims wanted in, that's all. Beasts and their rough riders

 

If they're amongst the upper elite of the Sith (say, the Dark Lords) then yes, they're most likely evil.

However, would lower caste "true Sith" (e.g., slaves or warriors) necessarily have to be evil?

 

Well, Nadd also expelled anyone who challenged his rule, he was a cruel despot, a murderer and a coward...

And whoever said Dooku was a coward in ROTS...why don't you have your hands sliced off, then have your trusted master who you thinks shares your ideals tell the guy to kill you. Dooku was frozen in shock as I'm sure anyone with a working mind'd be

 

Well, the movies said that they were evil, evil beyond question. However, they don't always rely on being negative. Passion is basically strong emotions. In essence, they will use joy and love to feed themselves just as often as they will use rage and fury. So no, not always evil.

Also, my own beliefs make me very hesitant to use the words 'good/right' and 'bad/evil'. It all depends on the point of view. The whole world could change in our eyes if we just change our perspective.

 

The thing is, we never see Sith use emotions like joy and love.

We got a very good insight into a Sith's way of looking at the world with Dooku in the ROTS novel-there are two categories: Assets (people to be used) and Threats (people to be destroyed). Anger and hate are the core of the Dark Side.

Jedi feel joy and unconditional love. Sith do not.