Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?

It's really frustrating when you're all wrong. On one side, Anakin did not 'own' Obi-Wan. It was a mostly even-matched duel. On the other side, Obi-Wan was not a superior fighter in any way. That was not seen, that is something that is simply deduced because of the end result. It evidently is lost on many of you the whole point of the storyline. Anakin loses himself and the duel to his anger and arrogance. He becomes Darth Vader because of his anger and arrogance. He did not 'miscalculate.' Obi-Wan did not 'defeat him' by any 'superior skill, technique, fighting ability,' etc. That's just not the way it is. Anakin didn't calculate anything. He didn't care. He was an arrogant punk and that cost him. He beat himself.

As for people mentioning how Obi-Wan disarmed Anakin, you apparently conveniently forget how two seconds earlier Anakin came damn close to sawing Obi-Wan's head off with his lightsaber. Obi-Wan got out of his tight spot by kicking Anakin in the back. Hardly the move of a powerful Jedi. That's the move of anybody about to be killed. Anakin got out of his tight spot by using his powers to summon his saber and deflect the strike. People are favoring one fighter based on their personal preferences, but the bottom line is that Anakin Skywalker was written for this story to be the most powerful character. Thus he is the most powerful character. But he was also written to be a flawed character who falls from grace. Thus he is a flawed character who falls from grace. He doesn't fall because Obi-Wan knocks him down. He falls because he lets himself fall.

 

Rather he let himself fall or got felled..the point is Obi won so therefore in my book...He is the better dueler because...GUESS What??? He won that duel!!!

Tinkky

Also add in their last duel, at least from what is shown in the OT (EU may take some liberties) and he won that one too because he was thinking of the long run and not the short run.

 

"Anakin loses himself and the duel to his anger and arrogance. He becomes Darth Vader because of his anger and arrogance. He did not 'miscalculate.' Obi-Wan did not 'defeat him' by any 'superior skill, technique, fighting ability,' etc. That's just not the way it is. Anakin didn't calculate anything. He didn't care. He was an arrogant punk and that cost him. He beat himself."

You talk as if it's incorrect to give Obi-wan any credit. The fact of the matter is, here is a guy who stood toe to toe w/ the "chosen one" and to take away from his victory by saying that it was the "chosen one"'s fault is wrong. Obi-wan though not the most skilled fighter, fought pretty damn well considering his opponent had just killed dozens of jedi knights and masters back at the temple.

I mean c'mon, give Obi-wan credit where its due.

 

Obi-Wan is the better dueler. he won because he's the most well-rounded Jedi and relies on discipline and his training. Anakin lost because he did none of those things

 

People are favoring one fighter based on their personal preferences, but the bottom line is that Anakin Skywalker was written for this story to be the most powerful character. Thus he is the most powerful character. But he was also written to be a flawed character who falls from grace. Thus he is a flawed character who falls from grace. He doesn't fall because Obi-Wan knocks him down. He falls because he lets himself fall.

Once again, being the "chosen one" equals potential, not skill. Although some believe Anakin was at his peak in ROTS, he really wasn't. The sad thing is he never really reaches his true peak after losing to Obi-Wan.

 

The more skilled person doesn't always win. There's always the term "underdog" and underdogs can ALWAYS find ways to win. I wouldn't consider Obi-Wan an underdog by any stretch of the imagination though heh heh.

If everything is supposed to play out as it should on paper, Anakin would never ever ever ever lose a fight, the Yankees would be 162-0 and win the World Series every single year, The 2004 Super Lakers would've been 82-0 and won the NBA Championships, etc etc but it never happens that way. Obi-Wan won, and won when it counted. What gets me is that some people fault Obi-Wan for leaving Anakin alive and should've finished him because "look what happens! he becomes darth and causes havoc across the galaxy!" or something... but Obi-Wan leaving Anakin alive is crucial because Anakin ends up killing the Emperor!

 

Oh I definitely give him credit where credit's due. He's a phenomenal warrior. No doubt about it. He held his own. My point isn't that Obi-Wan isn't a good warrior, my point is that Anakin lost through his own actions, Obi-Wan simply took advantage of those actions. That doesn't detract from him, it explains the actuality of the situation.


And tinky, surely you must be aware of the obvious fact that the winner is not always the better? That's an incredibly naive belief. I think it's fairly common knowledge that Napoleon was the superior tactical commander than Wellington. Fact is, wins and losses are determined by a variety of factors. The comparative skill of the combatants are only one of those factors.

 

Being the Chosen One isn't about potential, it's about destiny. He's the Chosen One because it is he who will bring balance to the Force. Fact is, you're right, he doesn't ever reach his true potential, but his true potential is to be perfect in every way. Nobody reaches that potential, even if they have it. That doesn't mean he doesn't reach the level of being the most powerful Jedi of them all. He does. He IS the most powerful Jedi of them all in ROTS. It just so happens that being the most powerful Jedi doesn't make you perfect.

 

Obi-Wan is the best defensive lightsabre duelist in the entire Jedi Order. Mace says as much in the ROTS novel. You're correct AlmostChosenOne in saying that Anakin lost because of his actions, and that Obi-Wan took advantage of them. That is exactly what happened. However i don't think that people give Obi-Wan enough credit for his ability to hold on against Anakin who is almost at the peak of his powers. He isn't lucky he just battles away until the opportunity provides itself which he takes brilliantly.

 

One quote to end this all....

WHO'S MORE THE FOOL? THE FOOL OR THE FOOL WHO FOLLOWS HIM???

Give Obi his credit. He won the duel.

Tinkky

 

Quite the opposite! Obi-Wan knew that Anakin would beat him with a Light Saber and that is when he used the terrain advatage and got Anakin to lose his concentration, become enraged and ignorant of the situation. Anakin was superior, he was on the offensive the whole fight and Obi-Wan was doing his best not to die!

 

How exactly does that quote end anything? It doesn't really make much sense in this argument...you're just using it because Obi-Wan said it and you're evidently a rabid Obi-Wan fan.

 

>>>>>And tinky, surely you must be aware of the obvious fact that the winner is not always the better? That's an incredibly naive belief. I think it's fairly common knowledge that Napoleon was the superior tactical commander than Wellington. Fact is, wins and losses are determined by a variety of factors. The comparative skill of the combatants are only one of those factors<<<<

OMG!!!! LOL...Napoleon led his troops across a massive land mass close to the winter season. If he was alive today...I am sure HE WOULD say... "Damn that was stupid". The point of winning a battle and being a better combatant is clearly relevant to the here and now. Think of it this way. I could be driving a chevette and you could be driving a corvette, but if I find a way to beat you and win the race, ultimately I'm the better combatant and tactician becaue even with your high powered engine and superior racing abilities...I WON!!!!

Tinkky

 

"Quite the opposite! Obi-Wan knew that Anakin would beat him with a Light Saber and that is when he used the terrain advatage"

Skill or no skill, you can't tell me that you would feel comfortable fighting in such a closed space. Fighting in such a closed off area would've been dangerous. Obi-wan was doing the SMART thing.

"and got Anakin to lose his concentration, become enraged and ignorant of the situation."

Nothing wrong with a little pyschological warfare is there?

"Anakin was superior, he was on the offensive the whole fight"

If Anakin is so superior, why didn't he finish off Obi-wan? Why did he duel with Obi-wan for so long? I mean if he could take out the jedi knights and master's at the temple within minutes, what makes Obi-wan so difficult? Could it be that he's a superior warrior who uses his head?

"and Obi-Wan was doing his best not to die!"

Yeah, it's called defensive fighting. In fact, it's been said by many that the best offense is a strong defense and based on this duel...it works!

Oh and once again if you could remind me...who came out of the duel standing victorious? (literally and figuratively)

I rest my case.

 

>>>How exactly does that quote end anything? It doesn't really make much sense in this argument...you're just using it because Obi-Wan said it and you're evidently a rabid Obi-Wan fan.<<<

No, I'm not a rabid Obi fan. I'm just saying, if you utilize someone's weakness to YOUR advantage. HE is the fool for falling for it. Hence...back to my original statement, and this time I'll phrase it my way.

"Whose the bigger dummy? Someone who thinks he can out conqueror the high ground, or the person who jumps instead of finding another way?"

Anakin could have probably beat Obi Wan, but all his skills didn't amount to jack because he didn't use any of them to win. He got sliced once and then to add insult to the rest of his injuries...he got sliced up again. I don't see any power utilized in being stupid when it comes to a life or death fight.

Tinkky

 

Wellington was English....Napoleon's invasion of Russia had nothing to do with his battle against Wellington. That took place at Waterloo, long after the Russian expedition. And the racing analogy doesn't work because the relative power of the cars is independent of one's driving abilities. If my car goes twice as fast as yours, tactical ability doesn't need to enter into play here. If I drive off a cliff, that's one thing, but that's my mistake, not your superior tactical ability. You wouldn't be a better combatant if I made a fatal mistake, you would be a better combatant if you defeated me outright. Take a world-heavyweight boxer and put him against a 5 year old. If the world-heavyweight boxer is too busy strutting around the ring with his arms held high playing to the crowd and the 5 year old kicks him in the shins to take him down, does that make him a more skilled combatant? No, that makes the boxer a moron.

Anyway, Anakin and Obi-Wan's battle didn't come down to high-powered lightsaber vs. piece of junk lightsaber, it came down to arrogance costing one the victory and opportunity being seized by the other to achieve victory. That does not make one a superior combatant.

 

Victorious! Yoda would not call it a victory! The goal was to kill Anakin and end the sith, that goal was not accomplished. Anakin apparently had the goal to kill his master, he failed. Both failed what they set out to do! That makes the duel a tie, no victor!

Obi-Wan is the better dueler as you could say. He uses his knowledge and experience to gain the upper hand and ultimately has the situation in his hands. Anakin is much more powerful, but you need much more then that to win. And it seems concentration is a big sticking point with Jedi and Anakin didn't have much concentration or patience around Obi-wan, even though he had no problem with the Jedi in the temple.

 

This is virtually exactly the same argument we have with the Mace vs Sids duel. In this case Anakin = Mace and Obi-Wan = Sids.

Mace and Anakin are both superior light-sabre fighters in terms of natural ability and power. However Obi-Wan and Sids use this to their advantage and manipulate the situation so that their skills can be minimised and their own abilities maximised. So Obi-Wan uses the terrain and Anakin's mental state to his advantage and wins the duel, just as Sidious uses Mace's arrogance towards Anakin to his advantage.

Obi-Wan beats Vader fair and square regardless of who is more powerful. Obi-Wan used his whole package (dueling, knowledge of Anakin, terrain, Anakin's weaknesses) to win the fight. There is no luck involved and Anakin did not LOSE the fight. Obi-Wan WON IT.

 

Yes! That is my original point! Anakin was the fool for his own fatal mistakes. Which is what beat him. That's what I said before! Obi-Wan didn't win because he was the 'superior combatant,' he won because Anakin made a fatal mistake. If Anakin had not been so arrogant and cocky, he would not have made such a blunder, which means the fight would have continued, and if Anakin was not consumed with rage and arrogance, then obviously he would have won seeing as how he was the more skilled. But had he done that, there wouldn't be episodes 4-6.

 

To say Anakin did not LOSE the fight is to miss the entire point of the fight, character, and story of Star Wars. Anakin is the one who made the stupid mistake. He made that mistake because of his OWN arrogance, not because of Obi-Wan's cunning or strategy or superior tactical ability. Obi-Wan told him outright NOT to do it! Anakin did it anyway because of his OWN arrogance. Thus HE is the one who lost. Obi-Wan simply took advantage of what was right in front of him. Again, that's not to say he isn't a skillful warrior, but the point of the matter is Anakin's move is what made Anakin lose. Obi-Wan would not have won if not for Anakin's mistake, ergo, Anakin is the catalyst of the fight.

 

Great point Almost_Chosen_One.

Obi-Wan never wanted to fight Anakin and even during the duel was still trying to turn Anakin back. I guess what i'm trying to say is that Obi-Wan didn't lose the duel. Yes the duel ended due to Anakin's arrogance etc, but Obi-Wan did place himself in a position of power. If he hadn't of done that then Anakin wouldn't of made the mistake. Whichever way you look at it Obi-Wan had won the duel then and there because there was nothing that Anakin could've done to beat him.

 

>>>>Wellington was English....Napoleon's invasion of Russia had nothing to do with his battle against Wellington. That took place at Waterloo, long after the Russian expedition.<<<

We are totally off thread, but maybe I missed my history lesson. Napoleon spread his resources and the support of his army too thin. He couldnt' have defeated Wellington after Russia. HMMM...same could be said of Anakin thinking he could conqueror anything and everything. Obi took advantage of that...not just once but twice. LOL... also considering they tried to offer Nappy a peaceful resolution before Wellington, which he denied just shows he was also overbloated with his own power. Sounds really similar to me.

>>>And the racing analogy doesn't work because the relative power of the cars is independent of one's driving abilities.<<<

Right, so if I out drive you in car that is clearly not superior. I ask again, who is the better driver??? Me or you??? Just ask yourself what I could have done in the corvette if you're wondering.

>>>If my car goes twice as fast as yours, tactical ability doesn't need to enter into play here. If I drive off a cliff, that's one thing, but that's my mistake, not your superior tactical ability.<<<

A tactical ability comes from exploiting a person's weakness. So IMHO Obi Wan really won. I don't know why you think this boils down to skills when those skills did nothing for Anakin in the end run.

>>>You wouldn't be a better combatant if I made a fatal mistake,<<<<

Hmmm...three lost limbs isn't fatal, but com'on if the Emperor hadn't arrived the Mustphar lava would have surely got him in the end.

>>>you would be a better combatant if you defeated me outright. Take a world-heavyweight boxer and put him against a 5 year old. If the world-heavyweight boxer is too busy strutting around the ring with his arms held high playing to the crowd and the 5 year old kicks him in the shins to take him down, does that make him a more skilled combatant? No, that makes the boxer a moron.<<<

NOPE...but the five year old wins hands down for taking advantage and winning the fight. Skills be darned because the fighter didn't use any of them and got tapped where it counts.

>>>Anyway, Anakin and Obi-Wan's battle didn't come down to high-powered lightsaber vs. piece of junk lightsaber, it came down to arrogance costing one the victory and opportunity being seized by the other to achieve victory. That does not make one a superior combatant.<<<

Anakin's arrogance was his weakness, his true weakness, and Obi exploited it. Man...he even told he don't do it. From my point of view all those skills were negated because he didn't use them. That makes Obi the better duelist because he got his number by using his weakness against him.

Tinkky

 

"I have the high ground" Who says that? It's both a silly and classic line. If Anakin was so good he would have known not to be so overconfident.

 

That's not really true though. Anakin could have retreated and lured Obi-Wan after him. Obi-Wan is after all the one who went to Mustafar to confront him. Anakin could have simply deactivated his lightsaber and said fighting was ridiculous and then lept to shore. Obi-Wan would not have attacked him had Anakin made it clear he wasn't going to attack. And then of course he could re-activate his saber and continue the battle (that's probably the route I would have taken). I can't recall exactly if he had the opportunity to leap to another part of the shore or not, but if he did, he could have obviously done that. Either way, Obi-Wan placed himself in a position of advantage in order to stop the fight. Anakin chose to continue in a poor way. It could have continued in many other aspects, considering they weren't exactly going to just call it quits and go for a beer.

Shame too, that would have been the best way to end it.

 

Don't want to bruise any egos here, but the duels in Episode III and IV definitely support evidence that Obi-Wan is 100% a more "experienced" Jedi than Anakin will ever be.

This doesn't mean that he's stronger than Anakin, but it determines that he's definitely more knowledgeable in the ways of the Force. Simply speaking Obi-Wan has got more years under his belt as a Jedi swordsman too. Obi-Wan without a shadow of a doubt had a lot more wisdom and experience as a Jedi Knight resulting in his victories over Anakin/Darth Vader in both lightsaber duels.

For the record, if you watch Episode IV DVD and listen to the audio commentary you'll hear George Lucas state that Darth Vader doesn't kill Obi-Wan because he had knowledge already at that time to "join" the Force.

Hence, the famous line "You can't win. If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."