Don't Try to Scare Us With Your Sorcerer's Ways...(Non-Force Users in Fanfic)

This is a great discussion, I'm enjoying seeing where this goes.

Exeter

All around great post but your comments about the Force user having to pay a bill has me especially intrigued. I think I'm going to see what I can come up with...

Golden_Jedi

Every time Luke Skywalker damages his X-wing, someone has to repair it, right?

For all the unappreciated aircraft maintainers in the world I pronounce that quote Sig Worthy.

~lordmaul13

 

Can you have a successful Star Wars story without a Jedi in sight? Are they so entrenched in Star Wars lore that a story lacks that 'Star Warsy' feel if they aren't there?

Absolutly. Star Wars is about adventure, good vs evil, technology vs faith, rites of passage, none of those things are exclusive to Jedi or Sith. Most Imperials and Rebels were decidedly non-force sensitive. There is a whole galaxy of possiblities to write about. People like Borsk made great characters for example. I am betting that someone here could work up a good fic about Mon Mothma and Tarkin plotting against each other.

 

There should be a challenge here somewhere that says 'no Force or Jedi even mentioned' ;P would be fun to do. and yes, we can have good SW fics without themention of Jedi because just as Hellen Keller was blind and deaf and yet legendary, so can non-Force users make interesting people.

 

Same here. That's one rabid bunny, Ex. I've already got a tentative plot sticking itself together. Thank you! I was in a bit of a rut and this is the first idea for ages that's looked like getting me out of it

 

More responses They feed into my twisted design, harr harr harr.

First off, Thumper makes a great point about the era one is writing in. A PT era story is going to feature a far greater instance of Jedi, or awareness of the Jedi, than an OT era story. I think this is probably why I love the OT the most - it's about the only period in galactic history that Jedi are not widely known, adulated and feared.

But what has surprised me most about this thread is the speed it moved toward what I was going to call the second topic. It was going to deal more specifically with characters and the way they are written, so I'm happy to bring it in now

I must direct any and all users remotely interested in OC creation or character interaction to read Exeter's posts with intent. Seriously Exe, brilliant stuff. Good points and well made - and going a long way to proving a point that I was hopeful to make with this thread.

How'd you get that point into that nutshell, anyway?

So I propose a shift in topic - though please, one and all, feel free to comment on anything that has been discussed so far

---

[b][u]The Force is...not strong with this one [/u][face_confused][/b]

While we are focused on characters, force-blind or not, lets see what sort of things some stimulus questions dredge up ;)

[hl=white][b]-- What do you think of the phenomenon of a non-force user suddenly discovering they have a connection to the Force?[/b][/hl]

Corran Horn was a great pilot in Rogue Squadron. He managed to fly suicide missions and come out the other side in one piece, he broke out of a prison that was deemed unbreakable, he survived brainwashing by Imperial Intelligence...in general, he was a strong willed and skillful character.

But guess what! It wasn't his determination, willpower, natural talents and set of overriding beliefs that allowed him to do all of those things! He was Force Sensitive and just never knew it!

Do you agree with that interpretation? Do you feel that this sudden discovery legitimises his earlier feats, or cheapens them? I am very interested in this particular point ;)

[hl=white][b]-- A Force User takes on an army of Sith. A Non-Force User stages a protest for Freedom of Speech in Imperial Centre. Who is more brave?[/b][/hl]

The point of this question is to try and examine how the Force affects how the reader interprets a character. A few users have already mentioned this - that Jedi characters are able to get out of situations and stage bigger fights while still feasibly getting away. But then again, they have a mystical power that is there to help them. Non Force users don't. Does that factor in to how one views the courageousness of their actions?



[hr]

That ought to be enough for a while ;)

I'm very appreciative of the particiaption here thus far. And though I see there have been a couple of suggestions, I've got no plans to issue a challenge at this stage :p By all means, though, write your Force-Blind stories! Share the writing process with us :D

Keep up the discussion gang :D I'll be stopping in to see whats going down [face_mischief]

 

Do you agree with that interpretation? Do you feel that this sudden discovery legitimises his earlier feats, or cheapens them? I am very interested in this particular point

Those are some good questions. I've never really given them any consideration before. I'll just point out that there was a non Force user (Bror Jace) who outscored Corran in their competition. I think that's worth mentioning.

A Force User takes on an army of Sith. A Non-Force User stages a protest for Freedom of Speech in Imperial Centre. Who is more brave?

I have to go with the non Force user and here is why.

[image=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Tianasquare.jpg]

I'm not sure if that's the bravest or stupidest thing I've ever seen. For all of you young whippersnappers who don't know what that's from, google or wikipedia Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 and see what you find.

~lordmaul13

PS GoldenJedi I was tongue in cheek when I said that but there is some truth to it. Take my word for it.

 

What do you think of the phenomenon of a non-force user suddenly discovering they have a connection to the Force?

In the example you gave, at first glance the whole undiscovered-Force-sensitive thing looks a bit cheap but I haven't read the books, so going entirely on your summation, I'd have to ask a couple of questions. Is it implied that his miraculous doings were only possible because he was Force-sensitive, or that he was the character he was because he was Force-sensitive?

The former is, I think, reasonable enough. There's only so many daring escapes that can be made before you've got to reveal the McGuffin, and undiscovered FS (it's a pain typing it out) is a decent enough reason for Corran's having, say, exceptionally good reflexes, instincts that are usually right, and so on.

Whereas I don't think it could be reasonably implied that Corran is only clever, skilful, single-minded, a man of high principles and so on because he's FS. That would be very, very bad on the author's part and veers perilously close to Mary-Sue-dom.

After all, it's been proved that talented Force-users have been some of the most unpleasant people in the galaxy, and that those without a drop of FS blood in them can be as idealistic, noble, high-minded and whatever as the best of the Jedi. Look at Bail Organa. Look at Mon Mothma and the rest of the Rebel High Command.

Which brings me to . . .

A Force User takes on an army of Sith. A Non-Force User stages a protest for Freedom of Speech in Imperial Centre. Who is more brave?

The Non-FS one. Because, let's face it, the Force looks after its own. Time and time again we've seen those touched by Destiny wiggle their way out of situations which Crew Member #6 wouldn't last five minutes in.

I'm not saying that particular narrative rule is universal, but since so many miraculous escapes are canonical, surely a Jedi with any knowledge of history would know that there's plenty of precedent for their surviving an encounter with a Sith army.

Whereas your non-FS Joe Average with the same knowledge of history can see there's not a jot of precedent for somebody making a solitary anti-Empire protest and surviving. Not one. Seeing that and deciding to protest anyway - that's bravery.

 

Thanks. In fact, nearly every story I write is built in some way upon my own experiences. I take knowledge I've picked up here and there, things that have happened to me, and just reality in general and use them to create interesting stories. I think writers sometimes have a tendency to sell RL short

Nice point you made there, too. And even in that single sentence I can see the potential for a short story. What happens when that mechanic screws up? Does he get blamed when the fuel cells in Luke's X-Wing leak 2/3 down the Death Star trench and he becomes Porkins Pudding? Does he hold himself accountable when the Almighty Skywalker is stranded out in space? What if he finds out somebody in the Rebel engineering corps tried planting a bomb in the X-Wing, and he takes it upon himself to find the culprit as a matter of personal and professional pride?

No Force. No suave heroes. No galactic peril. But an interesting story? I'd read it.

Awesome! Be sure to let me know about the results, though.

Glad I could help! Like lordmaul13, don't forget to drop me a PM when you come up with something. I'd love to check it out.

What can I say? The Force is with me.

Wait, wrong thread. I mean the Force is absolutely not with me.



-- What do you think of the phenomenon of a non-force user suddenly discovering they have a connection to the Force?

It's interesting you brought that up, since it's an idea I'm planning on exploring with a story I've got going on right now. I think the answer is surprisingly complex.

It really depends on how you view Force-sensitives. Is the Force like a special antibody that protects you against plagues and viruses and no-see-ums you didn't even know were trying to kill you? If so, Corran Horn's early exploits were probably greatly assisted by his sensitivity whether he knew it or not.

Or is the Force more like a switch you need to flip, a talent you have to hone like any other?

We've seen evidence to support both claims. Corran did many impressive things, but nothing we've not seen Han Solo - who didn't even believe in the Force at first - do throughout the movies and books. There's no reason to say right away, "Oh, it's because you're one of those bloody FS guys. Why don't you go levitate a taco about it?"

On the other hand, Anakin clearly showed special acuity in a lot of different areas before he even knew he had access to the Force. But how much of that was the fact that he had eleventybillion megahurtz of midicholorians in his bloodstream, enough that they sprayed out of his sinus cavities every time he sneezed?

I think there's room for interpretation in both directions, depending on your story needs. It's kind of like not knowing who Darth Plagueis was, or exactly what happened during Leia's interrogation in A New Hope. Fans often hate those gaps, demanding they be filled in by more stories. As writers - especially if we're OC writers - we should absolutely love those gaps. They're the void to be filled in by our imaginations.



-- A Force User takes on an army of Sith. A Non-Force User stages a protest for Freedom of Speech in Imperial Centre. Who is more brave?

Bravery has a lot to do wi

 

If I come up with anything, I'll let you know.

You either fight, or you die. Is that bravery? Maybe, but not in the same way we see firefighters who rush into burning buildings.

Then you have some seedy gun-for-hire, your craggy mouth-of-a-sailor type. There's a serial murderer on the loose, loppin' limbs and hackin heads. The merc here can just walk away. It doesn't concern him. Somebody else will take care of it. It's not his fight - not his problem. He's not gonna get whacked. But what if he does step in? That's pretty brave on his part - he's putting himself in harm's way to save others, at no direct benefit to himself.

I have one minor difference of opinion on this point and it may just be semantics. I think the guy who has to fight or die is just as brave as the guy who doesn't have to get involved. I think it is the decision to fight that makes both your examples brave. The first example does have other options, hiding, surrender, etc. I'm not saying they'll work but he does have alternatives to fighting. The difference I see in the second example is the reason why he fights. If he's really putting himself in harms way to save others, at no direct benefit to himself, that I call nobility. A subtle but significant difference from bravery. Of course, if he's really doing it because he likes killing or fighting then he's just a nut.

~lordmaul13

 

Really, I just picked bad examples.

No objection here. The reason I picked a Jedi specifically is because we already know they won't hide or surrender. They might surrender, but only because they'll try and escape later. It's also why I said they're both still brave, but probably not in the same way as other situations.

In the case of "nobility", that example was just one I used to illustrate the person that has plenty to lose by It didn't have to be to save others. Or even life or death. As in Luton's case of the free speech protester.

Same with the "decision to fight." That was the reason I used those two examples. When I mentioned "choice", it was in the same way you emphasized that decision. With Jedi - though I suppose you could change this if you wrote it into a story - there really isn't a question of whether they're going to fight. You know they will.

I was just giving a go at answering Luton's hypothetical question about who would be the braver.

In other words, I completely agree with you.

 

-- What do you think of the phenomenon of a non-force user suddenly discovering they have a connection to the Force?

Corran Horn was a great pilot in Rogue Squadron. He managed to fly suicide missions and come out the other side in one piece, he broke out of a prison that was deemed unbreakable, he survived brainwashing by Imperial Intelligence...in general, he was a strong willed and skillful character.

But guess what! It wasn't his determination, willpower, natural talents and set of overriding beliefs that allowed him to do all of those things! He was Force Sensitive and just never knew it!

Do you agree with that interpretation? Do you feel that this sudden discovery legitimises his earlier feats, or cheapens them? I am very interested in this particular point

No, I don't agree with the interpretation. I read all the Rogue Squadron books and Corran only gradually discovered his powers, well after he'd escaped from the prison and I don't think he used any Force powers to do it. In fact, for a long time, he denied what he was, instead using only his natural, non-Force abilities to get the job done. In his squadron, there were a lot of individuals who seems to be ace pilots without the Force. In the books, part of Corran's struggle was against his calling and it was only with a lot of reluctance that he even agreed to be trained. So no Mary Sue at all. Well, except for Corran's eyes - which are the same color as Mike Stakepole's.

Nope, the discovery doesn't cheapen his earlier feats, imo, at all.

-- A Force User takes on an army of Sith. A Non-Force User stages a protest for Freedom of Speech in Imperial Centre. Who is more brave?

Neither, both. The Force user is probably certain that he is going to die but it's for the greater good but he may die alone and unacknowledged. A non-Force user might think that they get away with the protest and might also inspire others to protest as well.

Both are brave in their own ways.

As for the Tiananmen Square protests, I watched with a lot of other people while that brave man stood his ground. I found it heartbreaking because I'd been to China a few years before that and the people were talking about moving toward more democracy and freedom and then the government cracked down.

 

No it wasn't I was exaggerating the process to give people something to wholeheartedly agree/disagree with as they saw fit. While I'm a bit fuzzy on the later books, I believe that Corran Horn's gradual stepping stone from normal guy to Jedi guy was staggered and well handled. And as Jedi go, Corran Horn is a shining example of what a writer should strive for. He's got real weaknesses. No telekinesis for example. And he lets emotions rule him like any human might - he's not immune to the Gyges Ring effect that Exeter talked about.

Agreed with you - and in fact, this part of dianethx's post also:

As I said, Corran is actually a very good example of a hero who has discovered a Force sensitivity. What interests me most is the fact that denied the connection in the beginning. It isn't often you find a character who would do that - actively choose not to act on his force connection. Though IMO, that is probably the most realistic reaction to a late-in-life FS discovery.

Where my niggling sense of injustice at the over the non-FS to FS progression comes into itself is when the switch seems unnecessary, or done simply to make the character more interesting. I don't know if that is the case with Corran, to be honest - he established himself well through the process, so perhaps not. But when it does happen, it seems to telegraph to me an implication that in order to take your place alongside the classic Star Wars heroes, you had better be FS. I mean, look at all the extra things you can do! I know there are exceptions to it. There always are - Han Solo, Wedge, Lando, others. All of them bona-fide SW heroes and none of them a jot FS, which I am thankful for.

But when I consider what making a character switch to Force Sensitive really implies to the readers...I keep hitting this stumbling block. They would be less interesting if they weren't Force Sensitive. What other reason for the switch, then? Does it really bring anything to the character despite the ability to warm up caf with their fingers (or take on hoards of baddies)?

I suspect that when it is done nicely - as with Corran - it is to highlight the struggle of such a switch. Which brings me to this bit by Exeter:

Indeed there is. The story might call for one of your characters to make the switch, but in order to do that I find that I personally can't think of a compelling reason other than exploring that struggle between old image/new image.

 

Just dropping in to applaud this thread idea. Great concept, LP!!
I'll come back when I can contribute more.

 

As a matter of fact I've already written a very little story centered on an OC in this kind of position... Only the one stranded was Han and my OC saved his butt . I'm fascinated by this kind of characters, the ones that live in the shadows of the 'famous' people and do small but necessary jobs. Even the Rebellion had to have accountants of some kind, right? And every now and then one of them get their 15 minutes of glory.

 

What do you think of the phenomenon of a non-force user suddenly discovering they have a connection to the Force?

I've actually traveled this well beaten path, and even though I think I've tried to stray from it, there's not much you can do with the character beyond the atypical. In hindsight, I think it's a poor ploy, unless you look at whatever "realism" you can get with a super power.

It's more like Spider-Man, when Peter Parker first realized all the cool stuff he could do. However you can't forget to show the error that comes with someone who all of a sudden can deflect blaster bolts with his palm. Discovering you can use the Force, doesn't mean you suddenly have the wisdom to use it like Corran apparently did. (there were aspects of his life that DID prepare him for that revelation though)

"With great power come great responsibility" But not everyone that has use of the Force will have the brains to use it.


A Force User takes on an army of Sith. A Non-Force User stages a protest for Freedom of Speech in Imperial Centre. Who is more brave?

Neither is more heroic than the other I'd say becuase the principals are the same, use what is availed to you to fight tyranny. The former just comes off as more appealing because of the feel of adventure.

Unfortunately, a protester won't always get his due credit becuase I think society has become a bit numb to that version of "good vs evil".

 

-- What do you think of the phenomenon of a non-force user suddenly discovering they have a connection to the Force?

In relation to the example you gave of Corran Horn, when I first read the X-Wing series, I thought it was just a cheap plot device, and weakened the sleries as a whole. After all, they'd done a pretty good job with Tyria and how she handled her limited Force sensitiveness. Then when I found out about Corran being a Jedi and such I thought: Oh no, they're going to try and turn him into another Luke Skywalker. And as it turns out, I was partially right. However with Corran, I don't think his sudden Jedi-ness cheapens his earlier achievements. There was absolutely no indication that his piloting skills had anything to do with his Force-sensitivity. Unlike Kyp Durron (he should forgive me for saying this, because he is one of my favorite characters), who seemed to know instinctively how to fly the Falcon without having had any training beforehand, Corran actually learned how to fly, and had to keep practicing. Now, the fact that he survived so many missions relatively unscathed, that might be due to the Force.

I think part of the reason why this plot device is so commonly used is because of its comforting familitarity. Everyone knows the story of the Joe Schmo who was a nobody, discovered he could be a Jedi, and then became somebody. Arguably, it is also one of the easier plot lines to work with. Like a Shakespeare play, the plot has a set structure: MC has hard life, MC descovers he (or she, which is being seen with more frequency) has the ability to become a Jedi, he/she becomes Jedi, then battles evil. Or something along those general lines.

-- A Force User takes on an army of Sith. A Non-Force User stages a protest for Freedom of Speech in Imperial Centre. Who is more brave?

I think that there really is no way to measure bravery in situations like those. Both actions are equally brave (and equally foolhardy, IMO), but they're brave in different ways. The non-Force user not only riskes his own life by staging such a protest, but also the lives of his family members. And not only that, but the protest would most likely not achieve what it was meant to, so it would be all for nothing. The Force user, on the other hand, risks only his own life. Yet by taking on the entire army him/herself to possibly by innocents more time is equally as brave.

 

oqidaun - Thanks Looking forward to it!

Golden Jedi:

Indeed. In fact, in alot of comparable stories about wartime and such, the accountants have alot of power within an organisation because they control the money. See Casino Royale for an example of the heroic good guy reigned in by an accountant


Alexis_Wingstar (if my memory serves me )

Hm, I don't know if I could come around the idea that percieving force sensitivity subconsciously is a 'talent' as such. It's been my inference from reading about Jedi and whatnot that the Force, if it takes a mind, will push people in the right direction to achieve an outcome in their favour. It's what gives people that extra intuitiveness. Qui-Gon in TPM says it about Anakin - 'he sees things before they happen', and little Ani had never directly contacted the force back then. If that is the case (and perhaps I'm interpreting wrong, or perhaps there are dozens of different ways of looking at it), then I still can't help but feel that their accomplishments are somehwat cheapened. Those characters have a mystical advantage that the reader wasn't aware of at the time.

I should clarify, I don't mean to say that being force sensitive literally cheapens the actual accomplishment. Blowing up a star destroyer, for example, on your own is a great achievement, FS or not. But to me as a reader, an undiscovered force sensitivity diminishes the direct control that the character had over that feat. They got a helping hand. I didn't know about it, and was lead to believe that it was all the character's own work. Hence when I discover that they actually didn't do it by themselves, it changes my perception of what that character achieved.

That's true, the danger to both of them is extremely high. Where I think the bravery comes into things is what Exeter mentioned - and that lordmaul later determined to also incorporate nobility - about choice. The Jedi has a duty to go to war with the Sith if they find them. He or she will often be ordered to. A civilian in Imperial Centre actually has a duty to obey the law and be a good citizen. If he break

 

What I really meant, was that it is done too often. If the writer can mix up the formula, then have at it. I think the point I was trying to make is how the character handles the change. Are they all of a sudden looking to join Luke Skywalker's quest to save the galaxy, or are they gona' just try and cope in hopes it will 'go away'? Or will they use their newfound talents to go on the sabaac tournament circut and make their fortune cheating?

 

I'll start with the easy question first:

-- What do you think of the phenomenon of a non-force user suddenly discovering they have a connection to the Force?

The very first line of the X-Wing series is: You're good, Corran, but you're no Luke Skywalker.

To me, that sums up Corran. He's good. In fact, he's an excellent pilot. He may even be an excellent Jedi. But he's not going to be another Luke Skywalker. Not his piloting skills, nor his FS, nor his brush with darkness will make him Luke. And that's a good thing.

What I think sets Corran apart is his initial reliance on his Average Joe skills. I, Jedi is full of that philosophy. He's into basic military training instead of levitating tacos, as Exeter would say (by the way, I laughed really hard at that). There's a great moment in that book where he realizes he's turning into his Jedi grandfather - not a good thing because even if he's got FS, his "way" isn't the same as his grandfather's "way." That's why I could easily believe that he and Mara could be friends - they've got the same attitude towards Force powers, i.e. they're helpful, but they shouldn't be your sole source of strength.

Which brings me to my answer: if a character has been relying mostly on "his own" skills (abilities he has deliberately developed over the years), then I don't usually have a problem finding out he's FS. Corran, for instance, relied on his gut instinct (because his father encouraged it). Obviously that's the Force. But he also used the investigative skills he developed in CorSec, plus the piloting skills he honed in Rogue Squadron. For someone like Corran, the Force is like another one of those skills - he's going to train/practice/develop this skill the same way he would any other skill.

But if it's obvious that a character couldn't do any of his previous heroics without the Force, then I don't really buy the premise unless there's a really really good reason for it. As someone before said, that screams of Mary Sue-ism. The Force exists in the GFFA, but it's not what defines a character. Luke is a Jedi, but he's also a farmboy. Obi-Wan's a crazy wizard with a weird sense of humor. Leia's a diplomat, Mara's a badass. Even the villains - Palpatine was pure evil, and he didn't need the Force for that. His powers of manipulation were aMAZing, and I don't think that was just the Force.

And in the case where Average Joe, who never did any heroics, suddenly has Force powers, it's the same thing - show me Average Joe is interesting enough to read about without the Force, and I'll be much more intrigued by how he handles his new lottery winnings.


What happens when that mechanic screws up? Does he get blamed when the fuel cells in Luke's X-Wing leak 2/3 down the Death Star trench and he becomes Porkins Pudding? Does he hold himself accountable when the Almighty Skywalker is stranded out in space? What if he finds out somebody in the Rebel engineering corps tried planting a bomb in the X-Wing, and he takes it upon himself to find the culprit as a matter of personal and professional pride?

Well, in the first instance the mechanic would probably be charged with negligence, though if he's officially employed by the Rebellion, then the Rebellion is responsible for all activities of their employees committed within the scope of employment. So then the Rebellion on the whole would be held accountable. So then Luke is basically suing his boss, which would pretty much be his sister...ohhh unless you could find contributory negligence on Luke's part, like instead of performing a proper pre-flight check he decided to just "wing" it (haha!) and "use the Force" to save him from any possible mechanical problems. But then Luke would probably in turn blame Obi-Wan for putting so much emphasis on using the Force, so then Blue Ghostie Obi-Wan could be charged with contributory negligence. And how do you summon a blue Force ghost into court? Do they even have any kind of jurisdiction over him?

Wow. I need a life.

 

I see your point. However, normal people can have a highly-tuned intuitiveness as well. They can even have dreams that turn out to be prophetic. Either way, wether it's given by the force or a natural (though the force is supposed to be a part of nature) occuring part of the character, that character can 'listen' to that intuition or dream, or not. It is their choice. There are times a person in RL can feel "led" to do something, and argue with that little voice within them and decide not to do it... usually regretting it later. This can be likened to a nudge from the force. You can choose not to follow that nudge. So, the character who finds out later they are force sensitive, can look back and perhaps see where he/she has benefited from the Force, yet also see instances where they had ignored the pull of the Force and suffered for it. I don't think that cheapens it at all.

 

Sorry ale, I misinterpreted. It's a good point you make - it's been a while since I read a fic that involved a fallen Jedi that spent the rest of his days being a pool shark. Though just think of the plot options...


JadeSolo

Your points about Corran are all correct - as 'Joes-to-Jedis' go, he's possibly the best canon example there is. I think the absolute overriding point I took away was this:

It is very much all in the hands of the author, all of this. I've brought up alot of hypotheticals and asked about various canon examples and whatnot to nudge the discussion the way I want it to go, but the answer to most of these things is usually 'if the story calls for it and the author executes it well, then things are a-ok'. While I still can't quite manage to tear myself away from this concept of undiscovered force sensitivity having at least a subtle effect on how I view the character in hindsight, it's all filtered through the other elements of the story. If the character was interesting, if they carried out their role in the story well, then that's just great.


Alexis:

Ah, that is true. And while I still think that an undiscovered FS can have an impact on how readers might view that character overall, 'cheapening' is probably too extreme a word to use. It might have a reflection on the character, but it isn't necessarily a bad one. Corran's a great example of that. There was never a point in which I looked back over X-wing and thought "Puh, try it without the force for once!".

Excellent stuff, A_W, Master & Ale - I feel my horizons broadening even as I type this

 

Thank you. I'm glad that I finally found a site where I can state my POV w/o people whom I disagree with feeling like I'm attacking them personally! It's great to finally be where people can discuss things in an adult manner!

BTW, am I the only one finding it ironic to have a slightly anti-jedi/force-user thread on a site called theforce.net/Jedi Council Forums?

 

Well I'm glad thats the vibe of the thread I want people to post if they disagree, thats the best way for discussion to work. So as a general note to everyone, put forth your own opinions (without attacking anyone elses) and you'll be heard!

I'm bringing the system down from within, man!