Dooku vs. Vader

Well now! Since I've seen a few EU references here, am I to assume those AREN'T off-limits then? Well, let's go with that, and if I'm wrong, well, I'll remember that in the future.

Before I get into this, one final film-only note: Dooku won't be taking Vader down the way he did Obi-Wan in AOTC. ESB and Dark Lord both show that a glancing blow is only going to get you a few sparks, a short cry of pain, and a really, REALLLY pissed-off Vader. And pissing off Vader is the LAST thing Dooku wants.

Adding EU material makes Vader PWN Dooku even HARDER. Take Shadows of the Empire- Vader constantly trains his swordplay with special-ordered lightsaber training droids. Has to have them gang up on him to have them be ANY challenge whatsoever, and he STILL leaves them IN PIECES when the sparring is over. It's said he owns a specialty duelist droid, but it's too expensive for him to go all-out on (it's implied that, even with it programmed with lightsaber masters' moves, Vader'd just reduce it to oh-so-much expensive scrap in seconds).

In TFU, Vader insta-PWNs Proxy's ROTS Obi-Wan training module. 'Course, Dooku PWNS ROTS Obi-Wan, but Makashi trumps Soresu ANYways (as I understand it, the tabletop RP has a rule where a Makashi-using character can bypass/negate the defensive benefits afforded to a character using Soresu), which just confirms my suspicion that it's more that Dooku's style's a bad match for Kenobi rather than that he's an inherently better swordsman, but that's neither here nor there.

The EU-canon description of the ANH duel states that Obi-Wan kept looking for a flaw in Vader's careful defense (which makes sense; coupled with the way he hurls his lightsaber at Luke in ROTJ when the latter gets the high ground, it shows that Vader is incredibly wary of a repeat of Mustafar), but there WAS none. Hence, given Obi-Wan didn't have the stamina he used to, Vader could just outlast him, as we saw on-screen Given that the reason that Makashi trumps Soresu is in its ability to find and pierce even the tiniest flaw in a duelist's defense, I'd say that's a point for Vader. This DEFINITELY shows that his swordsmanship has improved since Dark Lord and TFU, where he left his limbs or his trunk open at various times- either way, it shows that Vader can take away the primary advantage of Dooku's style at a whim.

In Dark Lord, Vader shows his swordsmanship has already increased even in the few weeks post-ROTS- he fights two Knights at once, both of whom come at him with completely different styles in an attempt to put him off-balance. It doesn't work, and in fact Vader ends up toying with them; each time the two Knights switch their styles, Vader immediately replies with the perfect counter, and actually manages to prevenet EITHER of them from employing any fancy flips or twirling. He toys with them for a bit, then just summarily offs them.

With Shryne, Vader finds his defenses penetrated- so he backs off and pulls that TK trick from ESB. Only this time, he does it to about the nth power, tearing apart an entire bridge and creating this massive whirlwind of flying debris that begins battering Roan. Shryne- a Jedi Master, I might add- manages to deflect maybe one or two before he's completely overwhelmed and is from then on battered without pause and eventually gets driven off a ledge. While it's the fall that kills him, you could make a real argument that the constant barrage of huge planks of wood hitting him would have eventually done the job ANYways.

Now, while Dooku's no slouch in TK, he's no Vader. He throws a few things at Yoda, but it's always a few items at a time- there's no way he's stopping a massive hailstorm of debris like this. If- and this is a BIG if- Dooku somehow penetrates Vader's defenses, Vader's going to back off, tear the environment apart, and beat Dooku to death with it. Given the Count's age, I imagine he'd be more susceptible to the barrage than Shryne was.

Now, we all know Dooku likes taking of limbs- however, ROTJ aside, that's not always an instant-win against Vader. In fact, given th

 

Sinre: didn't see you there, agreed with your points

SSS: agreed, I think the idea is a good one and easily done.

DR: you certainly are tenacious with your opinion, I give you that

 

I think you're all forgetting something in this, though. Skill vs. power, and form vs form isn't the only elements in play. What about restraint and sense? Yes, Ani had brute strength--come on, Ani was like what 50-60 years younger than Dooku...so yeah, I'll cede that and quicker too (agility due to youth, NOT skill) however, in my book practical experience, sensibly applied restraint, better and deeper grasp and understanding of the Force, always would triumph over unrestrained rage and unthinking moves--Dooku, every time!

 

Interesting... do you recall the source?

 

Can't remember off the top of my head, but I THINK it was the ROTS novel; I DO remember something roughly to the effect that Vader's undying hatred, as well as his unbreakable will, kept him going even though his immolation and its aftereffects should have left him dead LONG before Palpatine got to him. And in fact, that really does describe what you see in the film- Vader's still conscious and clawing his way up the bank with his remaining arm when Palpatine gets there, rather obviously running on nothing but his own hatred at that point.

Now, there was no direct comparison to Sion, but the description to how Vader survived being Kentucky Fried Chosen One (extra crispy, natch) and how Sion survived being a Sith zombie are IDENTICAL, so IMHO, it wasn't THAT huge of a logical leap.

 

Now that you mention it, I seem to recall something to that effect from the OT novelizations as well...but I'm too drunk to search for it tonight.

 

It wasn't the ROTS novel. The ROTJ novel talks of "crawling back" but that's shown in ROTS, and it doesn't get into any Sion-esque stuff AFAIK.

Is it possible the source was this?

 

Sadly, no- I've been MEANING to read that, but haven't gotten a chance to yet. Which would make it kind of hard for me to reference it.

Gah- now it's driving me nuts that I can't remember where I read that! >_<

 

Yes, Ani had brute strength--come on, Ani was like what 50-60 years younger than Dooku...so yeah, I'll cede that and quicker too (agility due to youth, NOT skill) however, in my book practical experience, sensibly applied restraint, better and deeper grasp and understanding of the Force, always would triumph over unrestrained rage and unthinking moves--Dooku, every time!


And yet, Anakin was able to defeat Dooku in ROTS. Apparently, Anakin not only had youth, agility and brute strength on his side; for once he managed to use his increased skills and control of his emotions to defeat Dooku.

 

More evidence for Vader > Dooku-

Found this lovely quote in Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight-
"Someone extremely strong in the Force, stronger than he'd ever felt before. It could only mean one thing.
Darth Vader was coming."
-Jax Pavan

Now, you have to realise, Jax was one of Anakin Skywalker's closest friends in the Temple- so for Vader to be stronger in the Force than anyone Jax had encountered, well, that WOULD have to include Anakin HIMSELF, would it not?

Now, regarding Anakin vs. Dooku in ROTS, Anakin CLEARLY overpowers him, especially if you read the novel. Check the following quotes-
"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger."
This being even BEFORE Anakin starts going darksided.

When he does, the novel describes the outcome as inevitable:
"Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail."
"The play goes on, but the suspense is over."
"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless."
"Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

I was happy to drop this until I happened upon the Jax Pavan quote- that was too good to pass up.

 

Only if Anakin and Vader were mutually exclusive... right?

 

In response to the OP... I think Dooku would defeat Vader and Vader would defeat Maul. Just my initial thoughts.

 

At this point, Jax doesn't KNOW that Anakin and Vader are one and the same- he doesn't make this connection until two books later. He's operating under the assumption that Vader is someone unknown, not that he's Anakin Skywalker- in fact, Jax is at that point under the impression that Anakin is most likely dead or, failing that, in hiding on some Force-forsaken world.

So, given that he knew Anakin, and that he's certain at this point Anakin and Vader are two entirely separate people, then yes, I feel that from Jax's point of view at the time he thinks this, the two are indeed mutually exclusive; Jax feels that Vader- someone he doesn't know- is more powerful than anyone he DOES know- a category that would naturally include Anakin Skywalker.

See what I mean? You have to take the frame of reference into consideration.

 

Oh, I agree with you.
I was just poking fun at the distinction.

 

Oh, yeah... heheh.

 

Yeah, I have this thing about finding: "Mutually Exclusive" being used improperly.
So when you got it right without saying 'the phrase', I just HAD to chime-in.

 

Hate to bombard you with a massive quote, but this section is just so awesome I can't bear to cut away any of the powerful imagery!

"Nick Rostu knew darkness.
He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Harrun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistence; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, even though he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel- still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of theForce radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.
Until now.
Until he stood, unarmed, before Darth Vader.
As if being armed would make a difference, he thought. He could be tricked out with wrist rockets, a hold-out shooter, a pair of DL-44s, and a disruptor rifle, and he might just as well be carrying a pointed stick.
Vastor had been animal ferocity and menace, barely contained. He?d thrummed with the power of the dark side. His arms, legs, torso, and shoulders had been layered with striated muscle; he looked like he could have lifted a pregnant grasser over his head. One-handed.
Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn?t physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn?t matter. There was no doubt in Nick?s mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn?t stand a chance.
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick?s connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was- contained. Pent.
Waiting."
-Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

This being the same Kar Vastor who Mace Windu admitted he couldn't beat in a straight-up fight even on his BEST day, mind you. Not making an assertion either way as to how a Vader vs. Mace fight would go- only that that would be something I would PAY to see!

Yes, I am aware I'm a huge Vader fanboy. He IS my all-time favorite villain, after all!

 

If we are talking about a pure lightsaber duel, with no other force tricks allowed, Vader destroys Dooku. (allowing Dooku to use Force Lightning would obviously tip the scales to Dooku, based on Vader's mechanical nature, to the point where no duel would be fun)

Dewback Rancher's first post was pretty much everything I would have written, but he got to it first.

I will grant Dooku has experience. But, by ANH, Vader has personally destroyed far more Jedi than Dooku could have ever hoped to, and by his own hands. Surely, Vader has acquired some experience too. It also stands to reason that Sidious would have trained Vader in Sith fighting techniques, so Dooku would not be able to use that to his advantage either.

Experience isn't why Vader would win this fight though. Using Dewback Rancher's words, Vader is a freight train. (I also loved the Cecil Fielder reference as a Tiger fan). What Dooku can not compensate for, is the sheer power behind Vader's blows. Dooku would lose strength just trying to block Vader's crushing blows, let alone be able to mount an effective counter attack. A Vader duel can be summed up in three words. BLUNT. FORCE. TRAUMA. Reminds me of Duke, in Rocky Balboa.

"So, what we'll be calling on is good ol? fashion blunt force trauma. Horsepower. Heavy-duty, cast-iron, piledriving punches that will have to hurt so much they'll rattle his ancestors. Every time you hit him with a shot, it's gotta feel like he tried kissing the express train. Yeah! Let's start building some hurtin' bombs!"

That's Vader in a nutshell.

 

I'm not sure if Vader could defeat Dooku in a duel. Simply because Obi Wan certainly proved a match to him at the age of 50-60.
Certainly the EU makes it seem as though Vader is incredibly powerful, but then how could Obi last so long? Certainly the fight itself can be questioned due to the effects, but the outcome is nevertheless the same, Obi puts up a damn good fight

 

Obi-Wan is also one of the greatest Jedi Masters of all TIME, and one of the Order's greatest SWORDSMEN of all time (both of these as per the ROTS novel). Just because he's rusty doesn't mean he won't be a formidable opponent.

Besides, people just plain LIVE longer in Star Wars, particularly Jedi. IIRC, Vima-Da-Boda, a Human Jedi in the comics, lived to be 200 or something like that, right?

Luke in the novels is just about the same age as Obi-Wan, and if anything, he's MORE powerful than he's ever been, not LESS so.

Heck, 70-odd-year-old Han is still spry enough to give two Mandalorians a good fight at the same time. He lost, but the important thing was that it took two of them to take him down.

Ben's problem was more that he was prematurely aged by two decades of hard living under two intense suns, not that 60 is particularly old for people in that galaxy.

 

So if Obi is able to survive Vader's raw power, why won't Dooku be able to? I certainly don't see much of this power, save the final part of ep V duel. And even if Vader is so physically strong in duels, although Dooku was arguably beaten in ep III due to Anakin's raw power he certainly fought well, and Vader is slower, though physically stronger, meaning that Dooku may be able to outmanoeuvre Vader. Dooku was fast enough to duel Yoda to a draw, or at least match him which will hurt Vader.
I'd say the match is rather equal, probably each win 5/10 times.

 

Again, Soresu isn't about meeting your foe's blows strength-for-strength, it's about redirecting them, utilizing minimal energy and maintaining an almost impenetrable defense, waiting until your foe makes a mistake that you can exploit. This is why Obi-Wan continually gave ground on Mustafar- that's just the way Soresu works. You fall back instead of pressing forward, redirect instead of directly block. You become the calm eye in your opponent's storm.

As per the ROTS novel, Obi-Wan is THE master of Soresu, and the official explanation is that Vader was being very cautious in that fight. So cautious, in fact, that Obi-Wan couldn't find a SINGLE flaw in Vader's carefully-constructed defense; coupled with the fact that his stamina wasn't exactly what it USED to be, and Obi-Wan knew he wasn't going to win that fight. Vader could just outlast him, hiding behind his impenetrable defense; he's not taking the offense like he does in ESB and ROTJ.

The ANH duel is more a point in VADER'S favor than Dooku's- after all, the reason Dooku does so well against Obi-Wan is that Makashi is the perfect counter for Soresu in its ability to find and penetrate even the TINIEST flaw in an opponent's defense. If Vader can suddenly create a defense so strong even THE greatest master of THE greatest defensive style can't really match it, well, Dooku's going to have a problem.

Like with Obi-Wan, Dooku's going to find his style's primary strength taken away from him.

Still, let's say you're right, and use Roan Shryne as an example of what will happen. Roan was faster than Vader, and managed to score a few superficial cuts. So what did Vader do?

Disengage from the fight, tear apart the nearby wooden Wookiee architecture, and create a massive whirlwind of huge wooden planks that makes what he did in ESB look lame by comparison. Roan's defense was overwhelmed after the first three planks; after that, he couldn't even deflect a single plank more.

Admittedly, what killed Shryne was that the debris storm drove him off a bridge, and the fall ruptured internal organs, but the fact that Roan was being battered by planks the size of two by fours and larger, coming at him at incredible speeds and at a rate of so many planks per second even his Jedi reflexes were overwhelmed, well, you could make an argument that that would have eventually done the job as well just through accumulated blunt force trauma.

Now, tell me- who's going to survive being in the middle of a debris storm like that better: a younger man, or an old geezer who's even older than ANH Obi-Wan?

Roan, who was literally DECADES Dooku's younger, was winded even BEFORE he fell off the bridge, and you can't honestly tell me he has LESS stamina than old man Tyranus.

 

Dooku could also use the force to combat Vader, as shown in ep III he had no problem kicking Anakin away and choking and throwing Obi. Not to mention Dooku can use lightning, Vaders one huge weakness. Dooku also showed he's quite capable of throwing objects at Yoda, or bringing down the ceiling, not to Sidious' extent of power, but Dooku and Vader are roughly the same force strength wise I believe, so I assume this is an advantage for Dooku.
So Vader may be able to win the sabre duel, but if he breaks off to use the force, or vice versa, I see Dooku winning. Also Vader may fight more defensively, his personal form includes II, III and V I believe, so Dooku may have an advantage in this case, Makashi punishing any mistake, although Vader may have perfected his form to an extent where he doesn't leave himself open.
Dooku and Vader are two of my favourite sith, but I really can't see a clear victor, Dooku has an advantage regarding the force due to lightning, although Vader appears stronger in the darkside due to his hate and anger, so it may even out.
I think EU Vader>Dooku but movie wise, Dooku>Vader, not simply due to choreography etc but Lucas just keeps degrading Vader.

 

Starkiller almost wilted under the rage-induced weight from Vader's heavy anvil-esque light saber strikes. Dooku wilted under Anakin's assault. In light saber combat, Vader would have destroyed Dooku, utterly.

 

Y'know, I keep seeing people bringing up Force Lightning, even though I've already brought up how TFU gave Vader a Force Barrier strong enough to deflect Galen Marek's Force Lightning. Not to mention lightsaber strikes for a short period.

Besides which, Vader can always just block it with his lightsaber- no knocking Vader's saber out of his hand like Sidious did to Yoda, what with Vader's durasteel grip of death and all that.

And regarding the Force, going from a purely movie standpoint, I just finished a marathon of all six films, and I have to tell you- comparing Vader's TK barrage to Dooku's, Vader's is slightly faster. He also throws items as large as those Dooku does- not counting that large pillar.

See, for that, all Dooku does is Force Crush the base of the pillar so it falls on Anakin and Obi-Wan. Again, suited Vader takes the cake here- he's the king of Force Choke, and you can't deny the combo Force Scream/Force Crush he pulls when he finds out about Padme's death is more epic than crushing the base of some pillar.

Oh, and going just by the movies, when did Dooku ever show the ability to Force Choke anyone over live video feed?

Again, this is only from a movie-only standpoint. Bringing in the EU, you see Vader able to bust down huge walls, wreck massive structures, and Force Crush airspeeders and AT-STs.

Not to mention THROW said Force Crushed speeders and AT-STs once he's done with them.

Not to mention the TK barrage he utilized in Dark Lord, as I've mentioned repeatedly, is many, MANY times more impressive than that in ESB- which is also, IMHO, more impressive than that Dooku used against Yoda in AOTC.

Saber play, well, as I said, I watched all six movies in a row over the course of two days, and really, I honestly don't see how the ESB and ROTJ duels don't stack up well against some of the PT duels. You pit ESB Vader or ROTJ Vader against Dooku or Grievous, and both will go down, even from a purely movie-only standpoint.

The ESB duel, in particular, is really striking- Vader starts off slowly, testing Luke. You can see this with Luke advancing and Vader retreating in unison. Soon as Luke lands a kick to Vader's chest, Vader gets a bit more serious, launching that sneak attack followed by his TK barrage.

And when Luke shows the ability to strike Vader with his blade, compare how brutally and easily Vader defeats and literally DISARMS his son with his more measured swordplay earlier in the duel, and try to tell me he wasn't holding back. You can't really say that, because the increase in Vader's ferocity, the sheer power in his blows, is OBVIOUS.

The ROTJ duel also shows some great stuff from Vader. Particularly the saber throw- as I've said, coupled with how conservatively and defensively Vader takes on Obi-Wan in ANH, and you can make a very strong case that Vader learned his lesson from Mustafar. He's not underestimating Obi-Wan at all, maintaining his defense at the cost of possibly just battering an old man into submission, and in ROTJ, when his son gets the high ground, Vader doesn't try for it- he stays back and throws his saber.

Think about it- Dooku lost to Anakin's blind, unthinking power. The thing with Vader is, he takes the raw power of Anakin's blows, makes them even STRONGER, and couples them with a keener tactical mind.

Couple this with Dark Lord, where Vader shows why doing any fancy, PT-style flipping isn't going to do squat to him: two Knights try to take on Vader, both using opposite styles in an attempt to throw Vader off. Vader not only replies with the perfect counter each time they shift styles, his swordplay is so masterful he actually PREVENTS them from doing any PT-style acrobatics.

I'm not making this up- you see, Dark Lord makes a POINT of pointing this out.

Then we go to the fight with Shryne- when Shryne gets a hit in on Vader's trunk, Vader shifts his style to protect his torso, which leaves his limbs open. When Shryne takes advantage of this, Vader backs off and TK barrages him to death.

Now, let