Dooku's force lightning. Was it an unfortunate addition?

I believe that many will think so as it seems take that *special little something* away from Sidious.

Further, it may be seen (by some) to undermine Vader. Most of us know that Vader could not use this technique because of his medical problems, yet Star Wars fans will inevitably pitch fighters, be it Jedi or Sith (or a nice combination of both ? what a headache that can be), against each other, even in this movie section.

What say you on the issue of force lightning?

My personal position is neither here nor there in all honesty but I liked the idea of Sidious being able to best Vader purely because of the force lightning technique (and this was explicitly touched on in RoDV)

Note: Whilst Maul did not demonstrate force lightning in the movies I have always interpreted the situation as follows:
Most strong Sith can use the technique as long as they are not in Vader?s condition. Feel free to question me on my somewhat lazy assumption in this thread, though please make allowance for it being a Friday night in bonnie Scotland and I am relaxing. I do not intend this thread to turn into bona fide debate, but rather a simple exchange of ideas.

Cheers.

 

Just look at Dooku's ****-*** lightning and compare it to Sidious' throw-you-across the room stuff. It's like the difference between touching a 9-volt to your tongue and well, getting struck by lightning. Sure, they have the same skill, but Sidious' is waay beyond Dooku's in terms of power.

Lookit at easily Obi-Wan blocks Dooku's..then look at Mace and Yoda trying to block Sidious'. Completely different levels of mastery.

 

I agree. Interestingly enough some dispute this, though not I.

What concerns me is the affect it has on the OT Vader in two main ways.

1) He is the only movie Sith Lord that we know cannot use lightning (not to mention that every Tom Dick and Harry seems to have it in the EU) and 2) The implication that this technique can own Vader, even if it is not quite up to Darth Sidious standards.

I also still believe it cheapens the Emperor's display in ROTJ.

 

As long as Vader has his saber, he can block the force lightning, so it isn't much of a problem. Anyways, there are only a handful of people in the OT that can do force lightning.

I also still believe it cheapens the Emperor's display in ROTJ.


Why do you believe that?

 

Plo Koon "electric judgement"

 

I think that it cheapens his display because in my eyes it gave him *that little special something*

What do I mean by this?

Simply that I thought it set him apart from the rest.

And I liked that.

 

Gotcha.

 

I think the lightning was actually an idea that the ILM guys pushed on Lucas after the film had been shot. In the script and in the initial photography Dooku just threw Anakin across the room, and there was no "Obi Wan blocks Force lightning with his lightsaber," which has to be one of the stupidest things amongst a movie full of stupid things. And then when Yoda comes in, he just draws his saber, Dooku says something like "you're no match for me" and they start duelling. Rob Coleman, I think it was, felt that the image of Yoda going to town like the lovechild of Kermit the Frog and the Tazmanian Devil was too silly to swallow so they came up with that whole "battle of the wizards" bit where they first thrown objects and Force lightning around to lead into and build up to the duel. Which I think works quite well on its own, but takes away a massive amount of distinctiveness to the Emperor when you consider the larger storyline at hand.

So, in a sense, the lightning was sort of shoehorned in well after the film had been shot to cover up a percieved weakness elsewhere in the scene. I don't think it was given due thought process, personally.

 

I don't think it cheapens anything at all. Vader only can't do it because of the mechanical body parts, not that he was somehow a lesser Sith Lord. Had Obi-Wan not crippled him on Mustafar, he too would have used the Sith variant of lightning, and probably been able to do it stronger than Palpatine. Showing Dooku using it doesn't really diminish Vader, considering Anakin proved to be stronger than Dooku anyway...I also don't see how it cheapens Palpatine. Dooku using it is an obvious extention of the logic that allows Palpatine to do it. Palpatine had to learn to use it from his master, when he was an Apprentice, and in order for his master to know the technique, he would have had to have learned it from his master before him. Palpatine's usage of lightning is clearly the result of Sith Masters teaching it to their Sith Apprentices. Dooku was Palpatine's Apprentice, it makes sense he would have learned to use it. Especially considering how skilled Dooku was already in the force. Darth Maul may have been able to use it as well, but since he is never seen using it, it could be either because of lack of opportunity, or simply that lightning was a more advanced skill he hadn't learned yet. Either way, Lightning is something taught...Palpatine learned it, and then passed it on, just as his Master did.

 

I guess I never put as much value in the force lightning per se. I figured all of the Sith could use it, but it was just another tool to be used at the right time. Sidious could have cut Luke in half in an instant with his lightsaber, but he elected to do it the torturous way because he wanted Luke to have a painful death.

As for Vader, he could have perhaps blocked the lightning with his lightsaber, but again, the Emperor had many other means of taking out Vader if he wanted to (blowing up a ship he was on or whatever). The importance of their relationship was the interdependance they had on one another. Sidious was Vader's path to power and Vader was Sidious right arm that ensured all of his plans were carried out. Other players were well and good, but if there were problems, Vader was sent along to be the iron fist and rectify the problem. While both knew the other could work pointedly for their destruction, they both also knew that they needed one another throughout the OT. That might have changed down the line, but of course Anakin killed them both before they had a chance to cross that bridge.

 

Everyone in the star wars universe can use lightning. Darth Vader was the best at it, but why bother when you can choke someone?

 

I admit it surprised me when I went to the theater to watch AOTC for the first time, and witnessed Dooku unleashing the lightning. It brought a "whoa" outloud from me. I do agree with it probably being better off that Palpatine should have been the only one who could use the lightning. It doesn't like...lessen my respect for Palpatines powers though. I wish they could have just stuck with Dooku being like a master swordsman, and he wouldn't have to use lightning at all in combat. BUT...if they had to choose another sith besides Palpatine to give the force lightning to, I'm glad it was Dooku.

 

I never really liked it. But it could be worse. Lucas did many strange things in the PT, im surprised we did not see Jar Jar use sith lightning..

 

Yes.

It was not a terrible sin against his own work.

I just felt like being picky (and I have an obsession with the "Dooku Factor")

 

I'll just take this snippet if you don't mind.

As I said, we know the deal with Vader but I often think of more casual Star Wars fans. Well, those and the insane ones that constantly pit the fighters against each other with as much seriousness as lung cancer. "Vader's saber would not save him completely... blah...blah...Etc"

I am actually a pretty recent Star Wars fan but am starting to realise that people I talk to in the "real world" (over rated place btw) think that the deal with Vader sucks quite badly.

And probably just because every Tom Dick and Harry does indeed have force lightning.

Perhaps it has more to do with the EU - I should probably take a look at the timing.

 

Casual Star Wars fans don't know anything about the EU. Heck, I don't know a lot about it.

 

Some have played the KOTOR games though and go on to learn a bit more since I shove it in their faces

 

In Dark Lord, Sidious seems confident that he can take out Vader with Force lightning, saber or no saber.

 

But he was also confident that Vader would never return to the light side...

 

Vader as much as admitted that he could not take Sidious by his omission to act.

 

ok, difficult, but interesting question.

1. I would agree that this addition reduces effect of Palpy display in ROTJ, but as I understand intention of Lucas, that's the way its supposed to be. I think he wants to show that Emperor is not THAT powerful and he uses Luke's lack of Jedi experience and knowledge (in AOTC we finally discover that force lightning at least in some cases can be deflected by a well trained Jedi), as the Dark Side is based mostly on lies, manipulation and deception. It seems that Lucas in very constant in his strategy of building impressions and their following demistification. More less the same happens when we finally see bald face of a tired, breathless old man behind the mask of Darth Vader in ROTJ. Weren't you slightly disappointed, or at least surprised seeing real face of Anakin in 80s? It is very similar in a way to the situation from "Wizard of Oz", when Toto tips over a curtain in the throne room, revealing an average old man acting as powerful wizard. So Dark Side only appears to be so powerful, but big part of it is based on illusion. And to make it clear, that's the way Yoda explains Dooku's behaviour in the Jedi temple scene at the end of AOTC.

2. But on the other hand I would agree that from a certain point of view it is at least not the most fortunate addition. But not from perspective of plot and ROTJ, but rather regarding narrative strategy and ROTS. I mean that I would prefer if Force lighning had been saved for the Palpy's duels in ROTS as I guess it would increase their impact,making whole trilogy more climactic in structure (and it seems that confrontation of Palp and Mace in Ep3 would be enough to serve the purpose I discussed above). In AOTC it seems somehow too much for me, I would be satisfied if they stopped with throwing stones and pieces of metal (what rhymes with Bespin duel in ESB very well) and lightsabers fight.

So, in spite of the fact, that I mostly admire prequels, this was sth that I consider as rather unnecessary addition.

 

Ok, one more addition from me : writing all the comments above I have just realized one more thing. And it makes me think even higher about Lucas now. Sorry if that's too obvious, but I didnt think about it in such way before.
Let me briefly explain.
It is quite widely accepted that in SW there are many references to Eastern philosophy. One of the most important concepts in Asian culture is combination of so called yin and yang (two opposing and, at the same time, complementary aspects of any phenomenon, mutual correlations creating unity of oppositions). At the same time in prequels there is quite strong emphasize on so-called balance of the Force.

And now, on the other hand, it seems that all Jedi-Sith duels in SW remain unsettled in way, in all cases each side loses and wins at the same time.
1. TPM - Maul is destroyed, but also Qui-Gon is killed, so both - Jedi and Sith - are defeated.
2. AOTC - Yoda is able to overthrow Dooku, but at the same time he has to rescue Obi and Ani, letting his enemy to escape. So again, in fact nobody wins this time.
3. ROTS - Mace beats Palpy, but because of Anakin's betrayal, he is finally killed. Ambiguous result again.
In Emperor-Yoda confrontation it is difficul to say, who wins. Apparently Yoda is not able to destroy Sidious, but on the other hand - he survives and manages to escape. Besides, in fact at the end of this duel they both fall simultaneously, so the fight remains inconclusive.
Obi-wan managed to hurt Anakin, but finally he wasn't able to destroy him, leaving him to burn on the bank of lava river and thus letting him - although probably not intenionally - to survive. As a result nobody wins decisively and both sides are ready to fight again.
4. ANH - Vader wins killing Obi-wan, but he loses as it turns out, that Obi already knows how to unite with Force after death.
5. ESB - On Bespin Luke is beaten by Vader, looses his hand and has to accept terrible truth, but he is able to reject Sith temptation and to escape from his dark father .
6. ROTJ - Jedi apprentice Luke is defeated and humiliated by Sith master Palpatine, but evil Emperor is being destroyed by former Jedi Anakin Skywalker.
So as a result, it seems that through the whole saga Lucas somehow managed to make his duels more subtle and complex than just good wins/bad loses or simply opposite, but rather serving as representation of Force as unity of complementary oppositions. If we also remember about the fact that the wisest Jedi - Yoda and Obi-wan remain powerless - and Sith Emperor is finally killed by a Jedi renegate and the main villain - Anakin/Vader - it turns out, that SW saga has always been more ambiguous that in seems at the first look.

 

I think that it would actually detract from Palpatine if he were the only Sith who was capable of using lightning. How do you think that it would look if the only Jedi in the galaxy who could use the force to move objects was Yoda? That would make it look like he was the leader of the Jedi Council because he was lucky enough to be born with a special ability.

 

That is what he does look like to me.

A being born with a greater ability than others around him.

 

I think that the lightning actually looks better coming from Dooku, especially in how casually he just flicks his wrist and blasts Anakin away. And besides, if we didn't see it in Episode II then seeing Palps do it later on would just feel like a rehash of the ROTJ scene.

I also found it incredibly cool how the lightning with all its mystical power can be repulsed by a "simple" technological construction.