Dual Lightsaber Combat vs. Single Lightsaber Combat

In response to Sith_Rising and Darth_Davi both, that is mostly an illusion. When dealing with a weapon weighing less than 2 kilo's with a center of gravity IN your hand the abilty to swing with force is mostly worthless. IN a saber to saber duel a man with a second saber can parry a strike that comes in with a fraction of the force that was used to swing it, then disembowl the foe with a nelgigent quantity of force. OR, block the strike with BOTH sabers.

There is literally no advantage when both weapons are weighless as much of the power of a two handed weapon comes from the weight of the striking object.

Here is an example. Pick up a section of bamboo or another light stiff material, have a friend pick up a shorter section, now try and bat away his bamboo with yours. You'll find that the force is negligible unless the sections are directly perpendicular to one another and you are striking Literally right next to the base of your own weapon.

Not to mention that there are a half dozen methods of completely negating the energy including stepping back and cushioning the blade like a shock absorber. Most of the energy of a strike is not of the sustained force needed to overwhelm. You can't swing a weightless weapon substantially faster with two hands than one, and the force of your strike is the momentum of the attack, which is speed times mass. If you are pushing a guy with the blade then you lose power the farther from the base of the blade you go, due to leverage issues, as you are generating all the force of the strike with your wrists.

There is no advantage to a normal lightsaber over a two fisted approach.

 

Repost

 

What does repost mean? Your repeating your arguement from before?

 

I had trouble with a double post. And yes, strength matters in a lightsaber duel, even if the blades have no mass or weight, as the user is pushing it against another blade. Try this: take a bamboo sword and hold it with one hand. Have another person hold a bamboo sword with both hands. Then, have him hold it above his head, and step forward, striking down towards the top of your head with all his might. Try to block it with one hand, remembering that lightsabers have no guard, so you must meet the blade at 90 degrees. Your defense will collapse.

 

The difference being, try catching the blade at the tip as opposed to the base. I can ward of a light blade with one hand even one weilded by two as long as I catch it close to the guard and him close to the tip. If you are using the sort of weapon that Nihil does then yes there is a great power advantage, because you can spread your arms apart and increase the power at the tip of the blade. NOt with a normal weapon.

 

True, that it's optimal to catch it close to the guard, where his strength is less, but locking the guards, so that you can stab with the left hand, is not an option with a lightsaber. The opponent can still force your blade back towards you. With a real sword, that's ok, because you can quickly disengage, sidestep and cut across the abdomen, or use the elbows and shoulders to knock him off balance. But with a lightsaber, that's a tricky game.

Since this is a thread about the double-edged lightsaber, I guess I should note that, at this close range, it is both very strong and very weak. You could hold the opponent if your blades cross at close range and quickly bring the opposite side across his forearms or shoulder, but you have no handguard, so it's easy for him to slide his blade down yours, disarming you. As we saw with Darth Maul, the double-edged saber can also be used to strike with at grappling range. Even with one blade turned off, it's handle is long and heavy enough to double as a truncheon.

 

Idealy onw would carry two dual phase lightsabers. Each being able to switch between a short, standard and double length setting. As long as your skilled enough to manipulate the length of the blades while fighting ::No small feat:: the versatility the blades allow between attack, counter-attack, and defense should more than out weight any strength disadvantage you recieve from using just one arm, especially if you have an appreciable amount of arm strength. a.k.a not reccomended for average females.

 

Still every advantage that the dual bladed saber has is countered equally by just weilding two sabers. A reverse cut with the other blade while locked could be stopped with a second more mobile blade just as easily and of course counter striking with such a weapon would be the simplest thing in the world.

A saberlock only requires a microsecond of contact to immbolize the opponents blade which leaves them open for a lethal counterstrike with a main gauche blade. By regulating teh location you take the strike and moderating how you back up you can cause a strength to strength contest to drag on for a crucial second in which the whole thing beomes moot as you disembowl your foe.

Weightless weapons don't lend themselves to bludgeoning attacks, part of the reason why the idea of Djem So is kinda ridicuous. Obi wan said it best when he first described the saber. Its an elegant weapon, to use it like a claymore robs it of its most important attributes and advantages, namely its mobilty and the fact that it spins on a dime an cuts lethally with a hairs weight behind it.

The double saber robs the user of the most critical advantages of the lightsaber and fails to return adequate recompense.

TWo sabers, like master shan said, prefereably of triple phase each is the best plan if you can use it. Otherwise a saber and a main gauche is one of the better plans you can have. Far better than a double or single blade.

 

Go back and rewatch any of the lightsaber duels in any of the movies, and then try to explain how they weren't applying force...Tell me why Luke was sweating, grunting, and using way more force than you would suggest in his ROTJ battle with Vader? If no force is required, why does Qui Gonn Jinn get so winded in his duel with Maul? Come to think of it, why did he use both hands on the hilt when he melted the door in Phantom Menace? Lightsabers BLOCK other lightsabers. They cannot go through each other. That implies that if I strike your blade with more force than you can handle, the blow will be felt by your wrist and hand, as the energy gets transfered from blade to hilt. Ergo, if you only use one hand to hold the lightsaber, its easier for me to knock it out of your hand than it is with two hands on hilt.

 

True.

 

Just because thats the way they are fighting doesn't mean its smart. Of course force is transfered. Its a rigid object. Its also a EFFECTIVELY WEIGHTLESS OBJECT. Which means that using it as a club is the most idiotic thing that you can do. Any combat, even one without weapons is incredibly hard work.

Think about this. Swing one hand as fast as they can go. Now swing both of your hands as fast as they can go. Did the two hands move faster than the one hand? NO!

The force that you can apply with two hands is negligible when compared to the amount of force that you can dissipate or redirect with a fraction of the effort. A two handed grip is worthless.

 

Wouldnt that be a Tri-Phase?

On topic. Yes, the physical force behind a swing is a factor in the equasion. But there are alot of other factors. Using both blades the block, or just using one blade to alter the direction of a strike, while moving is as efficent. Glancing blows seem to occur very often outside of those times where people need to toss in some witty dialouge, so they have the blade on blade stop so they can chit chat.

 

Every character in the Star Wars films uses a two-handed grip for a reason. Even Dooku, Sidious, Yoda and Vader, who sometimes begin their duels one-handed, switch to a two-handed grip when their opponents become serious, or when they cross blades. Vader holds Luke at bay with one hand at the beginning of their TESB duel, but once Luke really starts to lay it on him, that goes out the window.

 

EXACTLY. So, either all of the Jedi Masters that ever weilded a lightsaber were completely incompetent, OR, per the Star Wars universe, dueling with 1 saber using 2 hands is the preferred style of Force users. Regardless of whatever theories about lightsabers being weightless, every Jedi Master in every duel ends up using two hands...In the Star Wars universe, clearly, two handed-single blade lightsaber fighting is not only common, but, standard combat for MASTERS of the art.

 

1 saber dueling is prefered because 2 sabers indicates aggression and no one likes that. So yes all the masters are wrong. They choose a delibrately less useful form of combat because it is philosophically appealing. And if they are going to use it, then yes a two handed grip is better than a one. Doesn't change the fact that its not a rational or logical when consdering weightless weapons.

 

Except that Dooku/Tyranus, Vader, and Sidious didn't use dual-sabers either (or Maul, though he used a different weapon and style), and they wouldn't give two hoots about whether it was considered "aggressive" or not. In fact, given Dooku's intense desire to be "superior", if two-bladed style were particularly "better" in any way, that's what he'd use.

Thus your argument is hamstrung by the lack of Sith Lords dual-wielding.

Also bear in mind, none of us here have ever wielded a lightsaber. Some sources have said that there's a "gyroscopic" effect on either the blade or the hilt making it harder to wield. Whether true or not, it remains that there may be "hidden" aspects to wielding a lightsaber that we're just not quite aware of, which make dual-wielding less practical/efficient/superior.

 

Yes my arguement would be hamstrung save that objective reality doesn't conform to cannon. Just because Dooku a classically train jedi master with elegance **** issues doesn't use two sabers is irrelevant. Palpatine a man quoted on saying 'the only reason the sith use lightsabers is to humilate the Jedi' is not really going to be the most credible witness on lightsaber theory.

Revan, Exar Kun, Bandon, Traya, Krayt, Nihil, Bulq, Sing, Ventress and more all used non standard saber arrays, be it two or some oddness.

Still no matter how many time you throw yourself against it the ultimate fact remains that a effectively weightless weapon with a center of gravity inside your hand can not effectively be used like a club. If you choose to go one saber with a two handed grip for purposes of reducing your mental fatigue then so be it. However if you look at warrior throughout history they never ever let the off hand go to waste. A shield, a polearm, the details vary but they never seal two hands on a saber sized weapon, defintely not of that weight class and function.

 

And not a single one of those is on film using one...You want to use a VIDEO GAME character to try to disprove the styles used by the actual characters GL created on Film? You want to try to use that to say that the characters the entire star wars universe is ultimately about, since they appear on FILM,and are the ultimate source when it comes to canon, that they are wrong? ROFLMAO. Did it ever occur to you that the reason Revan is capable of multiple saber styles, is because the game designers thought it might be cool? Even then, all that means is that you CAN use the style, not that you have to. BUT, if you want to use video games as the ultimate source for canon, look at Kyle Katarn. He has more games than Revan does...and, uses two hands on a single saber.

OH, and before I forget, lets look at other Star Wars video games, since you want to use Revan to "prove" dual sabers is better...Every lightsaber wielder in LEGO Star Wars other than Grievous uses two hands...in all of the "SUPER" Star Wars games for the SNES, they all used two hands too. In Battlefront, two hands, single saber, for those levels where you have a Jedi/Sith as your planetary bonus...In fact, even using KOTOR I and II...I chose to equip Revan with a single saber....so, I guess if it proves you right, because its in a video game, it must prove me right too...

Sorry, but, its hard to claim that wielding two sabers instead of one is canon, when the very source of whats canon is filled with nothing but counter examples. The movies trump ALL EU. period.

 

***bows respectfully***

Hello everyone, I would like to put my two cents in on this subject. In my experience, wielding two swords is almost like wielding a different weapon altogether. Obvoiously the weapon remains the same but the style becomes very different. To make up for the lack of strength and power, one must become much more mobile and fluid. Rather than the much more direct and linear movements of a single or double bladed attack, the dual sword wielder must adopt a very cicular attack and softer blocks in order to be effective. So in short, I would say you're all right. There's no better this or better that, it's really just a matter of a warrior's comfort level, strengths & weaknesses, training and opponent.

As far as the Star Wars universe...I think it's safe to say that the Jedi prefer the single saber dueling. If it were up to me, I would choose the double saber.

 

Funny, I thought we were discussing a fictional space-fantasy setting, not "objective reality". Within the setting, there is ample evidence that dual sabers does not provide any significant advantage over single-saber use. Not to mention that you conveniently ignore my point that there are other sources that indicate wielding a lightsaber is not so simple as a "weightless weapon with the center of gravity inside your hand".

"Objective Reality" doesn't always (or even often) apply to the setting. But the setting -does- conform to canon, and most canon indicates that the single-saber style is equal or superior to the dual-saber, save for specific purposes.

 

Are you dense? Does the word physics mean anything to you? Does the fact that in star wars reality conforms closely enough to our own that the universe is on a macro level fundamentally the same. Inertia, gravity, mass, human physiology, these are objectivly realistic, or as real as the authors can make them.

Don't quote me the movie like it somehow makes sense. Dooku used makashii because Chris Lee can duel.

Dual Sabers is to a single saber as a longbow is to a crossbow. A longbow is the supior weapon in every way save that it is easier to teach a man the crossbow. Except that a dedicated warrior order, with monks trained from birth possessing supernatural senses and dexterity has no excuse for using crossbows like a bunch of unwashed peasents conscripted from the fields.

Single saber is a philosphical choice of purity and non-agression. Don't make it up like its actually a smart comabt choice.

 

Hey Pipboy, I gotta question for you? Have you ever fenced, done kendo or any other sword art?

 

I feel, given the topic, I should post a link to this.

 

Not really. In the SW universe, sound travels through vacuum, for Pete's sake. Planets like Naboo have hollow cores, and I don't even want to touch Yag'dhul.

SW = fantasy, not sci-fi. Our laws of physics don't apply, for the most part. You must unlearn what you have learned.

Which is not to say that some kind of physics don't apply, but they don't seem to be Newtonian or post-Newtonian. They might be closer to Aristotelian physics or something.

Well, it doesn't seem to work out that way in practice. Almost all the top saber masters have used a single blade.

Bear in mind that lightsaber combatatants are almost always Force-sensitives, and a lot of their fighting style involves meditative techniques. It's probably easier to keep that focus when you're only dealing with a single weapon, and the advantages that provides in terms of being open to guidance by the Force may outweigh the advantages of adding another weapon for all but a very few combatants.

 

Nice.