JCC Embrace The FU - Formerly the STAR WARS IS BAD thread

Thought this was a cool catch.




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I'm not sure giving Andor a so9daughter, whatever, shut up!) helps. His USP is that he's a nobody that no-one remembers.

 

I rewatched the last arc with Rogue One, and it works really well. The start of Rogue One really flies along at a clip though, and isn’t quite up to the high standards of Andor, but it works as a good bridge between the very mature series and the swashbuckling space adventure of the Saga. It’s really great to have something that is more than derivative of the original Saga, and is actually is many ways better.

Watching Andor-Rogue One-A New Hope is probably going to be a touchstone for me going forward. One of the weaknesses of the A New Hope was that the extent of the Empire’s brutality could never really settle in - the murder of Owen and Beru and destruction of Alderaan are the key moments but (for no real fault of the film) we don’t really know Owen and Beru, and Alderaan is fairly abstract and only seen through the eyes of Leia. Now that film is given when more weight - we’ve seen the brutality of the Empire escalate over 24 episodes of television, and another film, and we truly appreciate what’s at stake if Luke fails. We really hate the Empire by the time A New Hope comes around. I really thought each of those rebel troops killed in the hallway by Vader were not only brave, but probably had long reasons to personally hate the Empire. The show has moved all the rebels out of being mere cannon fodder. Mon is really missed in A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back though. Hopefully she is given some good scenes in the “Heir to the Empire” film (but I’m not holding by breath).

It also works in another way of slowly revealing the Force. It’s almost completely absent from the first season, it’s introduced through the healing lady in the second, Bail mentions it, then we have the Guardians of the Whills, Vader’s power is teased when Krennic visits him, Mon Mothma speaks of a ‘Jedi’ in hushed tones to Bail, Îmwe uses it to flip the master switch for the plans, Vader’s hallway scene introduces the true evil horror behind the Empire, and then everything is fully introduced in A New Hope.

Another thing revealed by someone who worked on the show: the reason Luthan chooses Naboo for his first attack is because it’s Palpatine’s homeworld.

 

In Luthien's flashback he's a commander in the military right? But is he fighting for the Empire or the Republic?

 

Its not too clear but I think its trying to imply that he's now Empire (ex Republic) and is disgusted with what he's seeing hence him hiding away in the ship

Thats just my interpretation though

 

I also watched Rogue One after finishing Andor. Unfortunately, I started to get a little confused/confused. Let me know if I have this straight.

In the show, we learn that Andor (and everyone on Yavin) knows the name Galen Erso, kyber crystal, Jedha, Scarif, and weapon. So they have a lot of information it seems, but it's not collaborated/vetted information as everyone is a bit skeptical. They know the names of things but not how it's all necessarily connected other than it's obviously connected to the weapon that the Empire is making. The Rebels have no idea (but maybe some idea) of the gravity of the situation. All they know is that Luthen and his contact have died to get this information to them.

Then all of a sudden, it seems like a big skeptical coincidence that there is a contact named Tivik that will only speak to Andor in person and that's where we leave the show.
We pick back up in the movie on Kafrene where Andor meets with Tivik and tells him essentially the same information regarding Galen Erso as well as new information regarding the existence of an Imperial pilot. The Imperial pilot is instructed to go to Saw and give him the message.

The movie gives the impression that the Rebels need an "in" with Saw. They don't get along and we know why a little bit from the show and movie, but a lot from the Rebels cartoon.

So off screen the Rebels learn that Galen has a daughter named Jyn who is in prison under an alias. They run a quick mission to save her in order to use her to get to Saw and the Imperial pilot and the information.

Eventually Jyn gets to Saw but again only have the word of one person regarding big information that there is a thing called a Death Star, but it has a weakness built in but you need the plans on Scarif to take advantage of the weakness that he built in.

The Death Star has a successful test on Jedha, so the audience knows it is complete but the Rebels don't so the mission is to kill Galen, right? Andor doesn't, he dies anyway, but then decide that the real mission is to get the plans on Scarif.

Is this all correct? Am I making it harder than it is? I feel like that Charlie It's Always Sunny corkboard meme.

 

They final mission of the quest sequence is to get the plans from Scarif as Galen told Jyn that he had built a weakness into the Death Star and that the plans on Scarif would let them know where it is. Had they been able squirrel him away, the Scarif side quest could have been avoided. Had they killed Galen before he told Jyn, the Scarif side quest could have been avoided but then they'd have got the really bad ending with no Death Star plans

 

Welcome to Disney Star Wars.
At this point is well stabilished that the good guys NEVER believe the bad are doing something mischievous, even when told so with evidence !
How many times we already saw in The Mandalorian someone give the New Republic the information the remaints of the Empire are working to re-estabilish it and neither don't believe or seem to believe it's something irrelevant?
In Ahsoka when Hera tells the Council that Thraw is coming back everybody disbelieve her.
The sequels, yes, the sequels. made clear nobody in the New Republic knew the exactly extent of First Order. Or like showed in TLJ most of the Galaxy didn't bother to care aboutthe war.
So, everything connects

 

That’s mostly correct, but let’s see if I can make it simpler.

Luthan gives them the information that there is a superweapon. Galen Erso is working on it. Kyber crystals on Jedha are part of it. Scarif is a centre of information.

The Rebel leadership is skeptical that they’re being fed false information, because it’s vague and believe it could have been falsely fed to Luthan and/or a result of paranoia. Ironically they’re letting their own paranoia get in the way and are becoming like Saw.

They then get information of a second source - Tivik. He reveals that it’s a ‘planet killer,’ and he confirms that there’s an imperial defector going to Saw by way of Galen. This corroborates what we heard from Luthan. We know (but the rebels don’t) that the reason for this is likely because Galen knows Saw personally. But Saw hates them because he’s paranoid and crazy, so they need an in: Galen’s daughter Jyn.

They capture Jyn and convince her to go on the mission with a promise of freedom if they give an introduction to Saw. They probably hoped that she’d also provide a go around if she knew where her father was, but she doesn’t. Before they leave on their mission, Cassian is told that Galen is to be killed and not extracted because they don’t know what else he is building for the Empire. Whatever he knows is ultimately less important than what he’s building.

So they go to see Saw for the information the Imperial Pilot provided. Saw puts the group in the brig and provides Jyn with the information. Galen reveals that there’s a weakness within the reactor, and they need to find a way to create a small explosion within and the station will blow. Plans can be found on Scarif.

They are interrupted by the Death Star destroying Jedha City. Having escaped, they decide to go to the planet where Galen resides. The group, except Andor, believe this is an extraction mission for Galen’s assistance, but the rebel leadership reconfirm he is to be killed to prevent any further weapons development from him. They know the Death Star is operational, as Jedha is destroyed, but they don’t know what else he’s building. The issue here is rebel leadership doesn’t have all the information - they don’t know that Galen has placed a weakness in the weapon and would be better use alive (why Cassian doesn’t tell them this, I don’t know).

They arrive at the Imperial research facility as Krennic does trying to plug the leak (convenient timing, to put Galen within sight of the rebels). The rebels launch a strike force against the facility to ensure Galen is killed. He is, and the rebels retreat to Yavin to regroup.

In Yavin, everything is put on the table. The Empire has the means of mass destruction, but there may be an in built weakness. Some of the leadership want to disband the Alliance, whilst others think their only chance is to strike at Scarif. The meeting ends indecisively, but Jyn and Cassian gather a crew to go to Scarif, whilst Raddus gathers the fleet.

once we get to rogue one there are a few contrivances, but I don’t think tje general plot is more complicated that spy stories. Information is usually conveyed in a confusing way before the puzzle starts to fit together. The worst contrivances are:

1. Tivik only wants to speak to Andor (although by this point he’s set up as Luthan’s most reliable agent, so fair enough).

2. The continued rebel plan to kill Galen relies upon them not being relayed the information that he’s built a weakness into the weapon.

3. Galen is only in striking distance of the rebels because they arrive when he’s attending an audience on a landing pad with Krennic.

4. Some of the rebel leadership still seem to remain skeptical of the Death Stars power even after confirmation of Jedha being destroyed.

 

That movie has been in pre-production.

But I highly doubt that. Maybe a supporting character, like Poe or Han. We don't need every character to be a Jedi. As Andor showed, you can have great Star Wars storytelling without a single Jedi/Sith or lightsaber.

They actually showed K2's armor marks when he looks at Syril (showing that was definitely K2 as well) are IDENTICAL to his in Rogue One. So it's the same armor. Maybe different blasters.

I think it might have been the Clone Wars, if not early Empire.

But honestly, the Republic was already the Empire by sometime in the middle of the Clone Wars. ROTS was just about the name change and Palpatine officially becoming the leader for-life and with those powers becoming permanent.

What part is confusing? The main thing is most of the Rebel Leadership Council wanted more evidence, and we saw how distrustful Saw was of them. Jyn helps gets us to her father and to Saw. Plus actually witnessed Jedha, and Krennic's involvement (when Krennic on-paper seeming to be head of the energy program due to Ghorman, we now know he's part of the revealed Death Star by Jedha)



There been a joke going around that those 2-3 Senators in Andor/RogueOne seem so useless, that they might be part of where the New Republic went wrong

Ironically, if Mon Mothma has the power to act morel like a dictator in these early days of the Rebel Alliance, more of these issues could have been avoided. But it also wasn't truly a war yet, and they weren't sure they were ready for that yet. Until the Death Star forced their hands.

 

I never really understood - what is it that keeps Galen working on the DS? his wife is dead and his daughter is missing.
?

 

He wanted to delay it and build flaws into it, since if he just killed himself they'd just replace him.

I also may be misremembering, but it might have also been that the Empire falsely claimed they had Jyn in custody as a hostage before he learned that was a lie. But it's very clear he wanted to do all he could to delay and sabotage the project.

 

I'm not been funny or nuffin' but - c'mon, mate .

 

He realizes that there enough other engineers who can build it without him, so he keeps working on it so he can build in the flaw.

 

? That's the real answer.

 

You'd think firing a Nuke into the reactor of a space station would negate the need for any kind of built in flaw.
It's going to go boom anyway

 

But it wouldn’t have done anything, it was built to resist anything like that. And it’s the size of a small moon.

 

Not sure The Moon would be happy having a Nuke detonated in its core either.

The Death Star has vent shafts leading to ports on its surface, to vent gasses from the core. Igniting those gases with an explosive warhead is going to travel down into the main reactor. Even if that wouldn't create an explosion big enough to blow the station apart the way we saw, it would likely do enough damage to cripple it operationally for a time.

 

They say in A New Hope that the exhaust port has ray shields so they use proton torpedoes. How a proton torpedo compares to a nuclear weapon, I couldn't tell you. All we know is that the proton torpedo would assist in setting off a chain reaction that would create the explosion. I assume the torpedo wasn't traveling all the way to the core, but hitting something inside the exhaust port like someone lighting the end of a fire cracker and waiting for it to go off.

 

We’re talking about fantasy sci-fi technology. If the technology says that it wouldn’t have collapsed without a flaw, then that’s fine. Why would we presume what would or wouldn’t happen when the technology literally doesn’t exist in the real world?

 

The so-called flaw didn't exist until a random section of the fandom decided there was some sort of plot hole with the Death Star's destruction & therefore an explanation was required.
There is no plot hole, the Death Star got destroyed because a kid with the Force landed an impossible shot with a missile that nobody else with 1000 tries would have managed. No engineer could factor that in, why create a weakness that required someone to shoot at a target so small even the advanced targeting tech can't score a hit?

Rogue One is a great movie, but it was made to address a supposed problem that was never a problem.

 

Rogue One is a pretty bad, sloppy movie. Cinematography, aesthetics, VFX and action are the only good things about it. Everything else... not so much. Going from Andor to Rogue One only made it more apparent. Among many things, I never liked the idea it introduced that the Death Star flaw was intentional inside job by Mads Mikkelsen. Death Star is massive. Some flaw is bound to happen. Especially given that the Empire is a corrupt, rotten system, it may have just cut corners to speed up the building process. Think of Chernobyl: the accident happened because everyone involved was lying their way to the top, and because USSR wanted to save some money. It was not an inside job by some oppressed soviet. It was failure of the system as a whole, that eventually led to the collapse of this state. And it was utterly moronic of Mads Mikkelsen to create a flaw that could only ever be exploited by someone using the Force, lmao. And it takes away from Rebels analyzing and discovering weakness on their own. This is just one of many things. Rogue One was full of things like this. It does not work well with the original Star Wars movie, at all. It did give us Krennic, though. For that, I am grateful.

Sergeant in the Imperial Army. He is wearing the Imperial Army swamp gear, similar to the one seen in Solo. Here is the concept art they showed in the behind-the-scenes video the other day (kinda funny how they just drew Stellan Skarsgård's son, Alexander, to portray younger Luthen - now we have Iceman from Generation Kill in space):

My guess is, it's the first year of the Empire, and them reconquering former Separatist planets.

 

I’ve never gotten the impression that the only way to destroy the Death Star was with a Force wielder. It assisted him in that moment of extreme pressure, particularly in the route the rebels used, but I don’t think it was impossible for anyone else, especially if they had explored other avenues of destroying it. The only option to them in that moment was to try to fire torpedos into the reactor, since the station was coming at them, but I imagine rebel infiltrators could have gone on a suicide mission as well, by perhaps getting explosives into the centre of the station.

We’re talking about a space station the size of a moon. A relatively tiny explosion creating a chain reaction which leads to its being obliterated is a massive design flaw.

 

An explosion on the surface sure, an explosion in the centre maybe not.
Remember that Luke fired two torpedoes, not just the one.
And that shot was pretty ridiculous. Try putting a 2 metre wide ring on the surface of the Moon and ask a fighter pilot to bullseye it with a missile while flying at high velocity, I doubt many could do it.

We saw in ROTJ that a ship could simply fire a couple of shots at the reactor core and that would ignite the area around it and cause a big explosion.
Did Galen Erso also sabotage the second Death Star? Unlikely, it's obviously a weakness of using that kind of reactor system.

Remember that it was supposed to be impossible for a nuclear fission reactor to explode from the inside, yet Chernobyl did because a specific interaction caused a chain reaction.