Everthing Matrix!! (Reloaded/Revolutions Spoilers!)

The three best new Reloaded characters were:

The Merovingian

Link

The Key Maker

 

hmmm... I'm torn between the two ideas I dont know which one to believe. I totally forgot about the imprinted thing on Neo. That would explain it, but what about this can agent smith control the machines? how do we really know that for sure? I also agree that a "real world" fight between Smith and Neo would be cool. After sitting back and really thinking about Reloaded (after the shellshock of the effects settled a bit) I would have to say that the first one was better. I really like how in the first one everyone wasnt sure of anything and Neo was just another freed human from the matrix. It was SOOO difficult for him to fight just ONE! smith and now he takes on hundreds, dont get me wrong the stick part was the best thing I have seen in a long time. But honestly, no one was All mighty in the original it made it more interesting. I also like seeing Neo sport and arsenal of weapons. Thats something that I missed in Reloaded, the lobby scene has to be one of the coolest things I have ever seen in a movie.

Forcebewitya!

 

I dismiss the idea of there really being a real world and the idea Neo took part of Agent Smith with him to an actual real world dismisses the entire first movie. "Dont try to bend the spoon, thats impossible, instead try to realize the truth......there is no spoon." There is no spoon in the Matrix, and there is no Agent Smith. Smith like all agents is a program, and a program can't run in the physical world (though Smith is now a program turned virus).

Neo does not exist in the Matrix on a physical plain, he instead exists there on a mental one, and as such he can not take part of Agent Smith with him to a physical world. The only way it makes a lick of sense for Smith to effect Neo and other Zionites is for the Zion world to be it a different form of the Matrix. A Matrix where people think they are free, but theyre still plugged in. Neo said it himself,its another form of control.

Of course were all going to find out in November anyway so I guess well have to wait and see which is correct.

 

With Neo acting as Superman all the time, this shows that he can suspend time and gravity, because it's all "not real" so to say inside the Matrix, right? Well wouldn't it be better for him instead of slowing down time, to stop it totally? That way he could fly somewhere and not have to worry about catching Trinity, or Morpheus / Keymaker in the nick of time. To the characters it would look as if he just appeared out of thin air, whereas to Neo, time would be stopped, and he could just fly really fast.

Does this make any sense?

 

YES!!!!!!!! I just saw it yesterday!

The only way Neo stoped those machines was because there is a matrix within a matrix!

 

The only reason why he did it is because he can manipulate MACHINES! It has nothing to do with the Matrix within a matrix!

 

The only reason why he did it is because he can manipulate MACHINES! It has nothing to do with the Matrix within a matrix!

On the contrary it has everything to do with a Matrix inside the Matrix. Unless you want to ignore text of the movie. Thats why the anomaly has to choose 16 female 7 males from WITHIN the matrix to rebuild Zion. Neo said it himself its another form of control.

Then why didnt Neo's predecessors do the same? Elementary, the architect told Neo reading his thoughts was very intresting, where his predecessors thought about the human race as a whole, Neo thought of one and only one human, Trinity. Instead of taking the door to the right and "save" humanity he took the door to the left and saved her. Even the architect didn't think he could save her. Where Neo's predecessors were destroyed not to return to Zion or the other matrix, Neo did, and he knew the truth, that is why he was able to stop the machines, thats why he was able to feel them.

Then we had Agent Smith tell Neo that "We are not free", basically, they are unplugged but still a part of the system. Then there was the whole thing with the councilor, "I dont know how it works I just know it does work" is what he said. And most importantly the part where mahines need us, and we need them. What is control? The machines of Zion keep the humans alive by giving them the necessary conditions to support life, the humans at the same time, the humans give the machine's the necessary condition for life. Zion is simply another form of control. The movie screams it.

 

Xen, and anyone else who believes in the Matrix-within-a-matrix theory, you guys are missing some very important points. The Real World is the Real World.

Instead of taking the door to the right and "save" humanity he took the door to the left and saved her. Even the architect didn't think he could save her. Where Neo's predecessors were destroyed not to return to Zion or the other matrix, Neo did, and he knew the truth, that is why he was able to stop the machines, thats why he was able to feel them.

The Architect was right--he said that if he chose the left, "trinity would die", but Neo wants to try anyway because of his love for her. Human emotion is the one thing the machines could not compute, and they assume that, based on logic, saving the human race would be the wiser option and that the One would choose this. Neo's love for Trinity makes him choose the left door, even if the Architect says she will still die. He choses it and Trinity dies. The difference is that once she is dead, he brings her back to life.

Then we had Agent Smith tell Neo that "We are not free", basically, they are unplugged but still a part of the system.

When he says that he means that free will is an illusion. That is the theme of the film: destiny vs free will. Neo has already made his choices, now he has to understand why he made them. This theme also ties into the One and the human rebellion--by rebelling and freeing themselves from the Matrix, the humans believe they are free, but this freedom is merely another level of control because the machines have been allowing it. The One is there simply to fulfill his purpose of reloading the Matrix and returning to the source until the next time; Neo ultimatly becomes the first One to overcome this, both due to his love for Trinity and his fusion with Smith, both of which have been unprecedented thusfar and will eventually lead to the Matrix's destruction (i'll elaborate leater). This theme also ties into what the councellor says: Neo doesnt understand how the Matrix works, only that it does. When he meets the architect, he learns the truth. Zion and the human rebellion is part of the system, another form of control, yes, and it has ablsoutly nothing to do with a Matrix-within-a-matrix.

The systemic anomoly the architext speaks of is the human rebellion. 99% of the people plugged in accepted the Matrix, but the 1% that didnt were the ones who woke up and began the human resistance. This anomoly was not one that could be solved through any sort of computer equation because of the human factor--random emotion cannot be computed by the machines. Human rebellion is inevitable, and the machines wont be able to prevent this.

So, to deal with this, the machines created the One--his purpose is to reboot the system. When your harddrive has an error on it that cant be removed, the only thing to do is to reboot the entire system and re-install the operating system.
The machines set-up zion and give them the 'prophecy' to keep them busy and in one central location. Rebellion is inevitable--this is something the machines dont have any way to stop. So what do they do? Control the rebellion. The human resistance is being shaped exactly the way the machines want it to be, keeping them busy with Zion and prophecies and messiahs until the One can be created and the system reloaded to start fresh once again. The humans think they are free but they're not--it's all just another level of control. The prophecy was a lie. (Brilliant twist IMO!)
When the humans are destroyed, the One must choose 23 humans to repopulate Zion with, giving them the prophecy, before returning to the Source, so that he may be reborn again later on. This has happened five times already.

The thing that makes Neo unique is that he has been able to control outside of the Matrix, and his love for Trinity makes him chose the door that none of his predecessors had. I dont buy this Matrix-with-a-Matrix stuff. The Real World is the Real World.
The reason Neo is able

 

The reason Neo is able to "feel" the Sentinels at the end and control them is because of Smith.

Oh please that is so lame. Smith is a program, the Oracle basically told Neo when she was talking about the birds, trees, and the wind. If Neo is a real guy living in the real world as you assume, then Smith's connection to him wouldnt exist outside the Matrix. Programs do not run in the real world, they run in machines.

The machines did not count on this (nor did the Architect count on him choosing the left door)

The architect did know, he told Neo he saw the whole chain of events unfolding (or something like that) and told Neo he is going to be responsible for the extinction of the whole human race.

the Real World is real people. There is your explanation.

You still fail to explain how programs run in the physical world. Smith like you said rebelled against his programming, thus he became a Virus, or something like one, he began to spread. A computer virus doesnt effect people in the real world.

Strangely enough Neo felt the machines not when him and Smith merged (going to have to watch Animatrix) so to speak in part 1, but only after he was awaken to the truth by the architect.

 

The reason that Smith's abilities can be copied into a human mind in the real world is because the human mind is physically connected to the Matrix.

When people 'jack in' to the Matrix, an electronic stem is connected directly to their brains, which have been fused with mechanical and electronical parts to allow for electronic input (in this case, The Matrix). This is how they can simply download information directly to their brain. Therefore, the data from Smith's program itself could be inputted directly into Neo's brain when they fused. In fact, Smith does this exact same when with that goatee guy. He absorbs him, and then when the phone rings, he downloads himself back into the guys brain. Therefore, a program can exist in the real world, through the use of humans because their brains allow for input and output of computer data.
The reason Neo doesnt use this ability until the end of the film is because he had been enlightened. When Neo first enters the Matrix in the first movie, he had all the potential that he had in the second film, and yet we do not see Thomas Anderson flipping over buildings. Why? he was not enlightened.
This could further the religious symbolism, connecting Neo to the Buddha: when Neo becomes enlightened, he basically becomes god.

The idea is not lame at all. The Matrix-within-a-matrix is very lame, and bad storytelling as well. Furthermore, it is unnecessary: if the humans in the real world are really in a sort of power-plant or whatever, but truely believe their "Real World" to be real, what the hell is the point of the Matrix that exists within that world? The matrix within the matrix is pointless! And why would they make the matrix (known to the characters as the Real World) such a crappy and dreary place? The humans will be less likely to accept the programming and wont want to remain in it because, well, it sucks. Therefore why not just simply create the Matrix that we know (which we percieve as our real world), which people are willing to accept? Its redundant, not only because of that, but in terms of storytelling as well. Plus, it will be a very stupid way to end the film and renders the entire series pointless.

 

Still confused about some parts, and about things that have not been explained.
About Neo controlling things in the 'real world'.
I had discussed this topic with friends about Neo stopping the squidies. I doesn't have to be a matrix within a matrix. When Neo was in the white room with the Architect, he may have left a part of himself much like Smith explained that Neo had copied or overwritten something on Smith's program. Anyway, what if Neo copied or overwritten part of himself into the entire Matrix. And since the squidies are part of the matrix Neo come feel them and sort of control them.

 

Good points being made from everyone.

I saw it the other day (15th may if you're interested) and I loved it (mother hated it though... which is a good sign that it must be doing something right)

Spoilers kinda ruined it for me. I'm now getting prepared to answer questions from the masses, formulating my own theories about the content of this one...

"Smith like all agents is a program, and a program can't run in the physical world (though Smith is now a program turned virus)."

Well, the story element is a revisit to the ground influence that Ghost in the Shell played in the first movie. Smith was able to hack Bane's mind, so Smith's personality exists in the real world, just not his free agent visual representation as that shown in the virtual world of the Matrix. Smith has essentially risen to become a new lifeform, a program that can now feel true sensations. He is, in fact, it seems, no longer just a program.

"Neo did, and he knew the truth, that is why he was able to stop the machines, thats why he was able to feel them."

Not sure I understand where you're coming from. Where I can clearly see the downside to having a matrix within a matrix (which would just convulate the story to no end), there's something much more deep than just Neo 'knowing the truth' at work here. Who knows why he can stop sentinels in the real world? Perhaps it is because he really is the One... (not the prophecy one, but real)

All is speculation until Revolutions comes around. Theories are just too weak the moment to apply any form of assurance at the moment.

For those interested - Transcripts of important conversations in Reloaded:



Dialogue between Neo and the Oracle

*Neo walks towards the Oracle. She is sitting on a bench in a park, feeding birds*

The Oracle - Well, come on. I ain?t gonna bite you. Come around here, and let me have a look at you. My goodness, look at you! You turned out alright, didn?t you? How do you feel?

Neo - I, uhh...

The Oracle - I know you?re not sleeping. We?ll get to that. Why don?t you come and have a sit this time?

Neo - Maybe I?ll stand.

The Oracle - Well, suit your self.

*Neo hesitates at first, but then sits down on the bench*

Neo - I felt like sitting.

The Oracle - I know. So, let?s get the obvious stuff out of the way.

Neo - You?re not human, are you?

The Oracle - Well it?s tough to get any more obvious than that.

Neo - If I had to guess, I?d say you?re a program from the machine world.

*Neo looks over to Seraph*

Neo - So is he.

The Oracle - So far, so good.

Neo - But if that?s true, that can mean you are a part of this system, another kind of control.

The Oracle - Keep going.

Neo - I suppose the most obvious question is: how can I trust you?

The Oracle - Bingo! It is a pickle, no doubt about it. The bad news is that there?s no way you can really know if I?m here to help you or not. So, it?s really up to you. You just have to make up your own damn mind to either accept what I?m going to tell you, or reject it.

*The Oracle reaches into her bag and pulls out a red candy*

The Oracle - Candy?

Neo - You already know if I?m going to take it.

The Oracle - I wouldn?t be much of an oracle if I didn?t.

Neo - But if you already know, how can I make a choice?

The Oracle -Because you didn?t come here to make a choice, you?ve already made it. You?re here to try to understand why you made it.

*Neo takes the candy*

The Oracle - I thought you would have figured that out by now.

Neo - Why are you here?

The Oracle - Same reason. I love candy. *the Oracle eats one of the red candies*

Neo - But why help us?

The Oracle -We?re all here to do what we?re all here to do. I?m interested in one thing, Neo: the future. And believe me, I know, the only way to get there is together.

Neo - Are there other programs like you?

The Oracle - Oh, well, not like me. But... look, see those birds? At some point a program was written to govern them. A program was written to watch over the tre

 

Interesting, I would honestly like to know HOW IN THE HECK DID YOU REMEMBER ALL THAT DIALOUGE?!?! thats sick anyway interesting theories on both sides, I am tending to lean more toward the real being real now. Zombie had some VERY good points. And I would like to see the real being real. I will have to say though, if the real is indeed another Matrix, for revoulotions it would be sweet if they did a blue code for the teaser poster, I really think that would be cool (kinda like the first soundtrack).

Forcebewitya!

 

Eh, never mind.

 

After reading all of the theories here, I would guess that none of them are completely correct and that Revolutions will have even more surprises and revelations than Reloaded, proving all of the present theories incorrect.

Just a couple of questions:

Is Naiobi dead?

If all the power had been cut to those twenty-something sections of the city, then why were lights on and elevators working in the building that Trinity fell out of, and all the buildings within several miles of it as well?

If the matrix can be changed and reformatted at will, and new and more powerful programs created all the time, then why are agents so inefficient at disposing of humans who enter the matrix? Why are they not simply made godlike and super-powered? Why does the matrix and the architect not know where every individual and every rogue program (like the Merovingian and the Twins) is at all times and then dispose of them? Couldn't the matrix just be reformatted to delete those programs or move them to a place where they can be disposed of by Agents?

Why does the Matrix need to be reloaded over and over again if it can just be reformatted to eliminate problems like rogue programs and "free" human infiltrators?

Are the twins dead?

 

I dismiss the idea of there really being a real world and the idea Neo took part of Agent Smith with him to an actual real world dismisses the entire first movie.

Actually, no, it doesn't. Remember:

"Have you ever had a dream that was so real that was weren't sure if you were in the dream world or the real world? How would you know the difference?"

I'm not sure if that quote's 100% correct, but you get the idea.

You, like the others, accepted that the real world was real, but it may not have been as real as they believed. Even Agent Smith elaborates on this: in order to get the humans to believe that the Matrix was real, they had to make them miserable. If things were too perfect, if the people were too happy, they rejected the Matrix. So they "free" a certain part of the people, allow them to believe they're free, yet trapped in this miserable world, and they're happy. It's taking everything stated in the first film to the next level.

 

I have a few questions:

1) In the first movie the world inside the Matrix had a green tint to it. I didn't see it in this movie.

2) What is going on with the Orical in 3? The actress is dead (of dibeties... I have that uh oh.)

3) Where can I get spoilers from 3?

 

1) In the first movie the world inside the Matrix had a green tint to it. I didn't see it in this movie.

It was there.

2) What is going on with the Orical in 3? The actress is dead (of dibeties... I have that uh oh.)

The Oricle takes on a new form in Revolutions, played by a new actor or actress.

3) Where can I get spoilers from 3?

Matrixfans.net is a good site.


!snap

 

"The Matrix-within-a-matrix is very lame, and bad storytelling as well."

I, as well as others, do not think it is lame. It could be explained very well in the third movie. I don't think you can call it bad storytelling until you have the whole story.

"Furthermore, it is unnecessary: if the humans in the real world are really in a sort of power-plant or whatever, but truely believe their "Real World" to be real, what the hell is the point of the Matrix that exists within that world? The matrix within the matrix is pointless!"

Unnecessary to stop a rebellion? I don't think so. The matrix within the matrix was the original matrix, and is accepted by 99% of humans. That is the point...the VAST majority accept it. And maybe "matrix inside the matrix" isn't the best way to describe it. Maybe "matrix connected to the other matrix" is a better term for it. Kind of like a sidestep to the original matrix. Then the other matrix (real world) can contain the 1% that won't accept the other.

"And why would they make the matrix (known to the characters as the Real World) such a crappy and dreary place? The humans will be less likely to accept the programming and wont want to remain in it because, well, it sucks. Therefore why not just simply create the Matrix that we know (which we percieve as our real world), which people are willing to accept? "

That's exactly what they did. However, 1% did not accept it, hence the 'firewall', 'real world' matrix. As they said in both films, the original matrix was designed to be a perfect world, and that's why it was rejected. Smith told Morpheus that humans define their lives through suffering (or something to that effect). Well, If they don't accept the matrix that most people are willing to accept, make one that makes that other 1% suffer more. Once they leave the orignal matrix, they come to their "real world", which seems to be almost entirely suffering (aside from the horrific dance scene that WE had to suffer through...ugh!). So, if the don't suffer enough in the original matrix, REALLY make them suffer...they should accept that. But, I think Neo is the small percent who won't accept THIS version of the matrix, and the realization of this makes him drop into a coma after he stops the centinals(or maybe he even woke up in the real world).

"Its redundant, not only because of that, but in terms of storytelling as well. Plus, it will be a very stupid way to end the film and renders the entire series pointless."

I don't see anything redundant about it. How can you say it's a stupid way to end the film, since we don't know exactly what happens. The entire series is about freeing people from the matrix...this is how they have to go about it to find out, so it is not pointless at all. If they find out half way through the movie that their is a REAL real world, they could spend the last half rebelling in the real world.

I'm not 100% convinced of this myself, but I like playing devil's advocate. Plus, the more I argue it, the more I'm convinced.

 

Personally, I lean towards "the real is still real" theorizing right now. If it really is a matrix within a matrix, I'm sure the Wachowskis have a brilliant reason for it, and that it'll be sufficiently explored in Revolutions, but at the moment... I just don't buy it.

Anyway, redxavier you are my hero for posting those conversations!! I've been looking all over the place for an exact transcript. Whee!

 

"Are the twins dead?"

Probably. While they really don't have a place in Revolutions as they don't really progress the story, they were so freekin cool I wish they wern't dead. But then again they might not be... I mean Neo killed Smith and he came back because he wanted to, so I bet the Twins would have the same choice.


!snap

 

I would venture a guess that the twins are still very much alive and will appear in Revolutions. They were taking on there ghost form in the explosion, that would make them imune to the effects. I really liked their characters, and would like to see them in Revolutions (maybe fighting Neo? eh?) Oh, I forgot to mention this question in my last post. Redxavier, you said that the Neos on the tv sceens were the previous "ones" I think that they were his reactions not seperate people that existed in previous matrix programs. Why would the one look the same all the time?

Forcebewitya!

 

you said that the Neos on the tv sceens were the previous "ones" I think that they were his reactions not seperate people that existed in previous matrix programs. Why would the one look the same all the time?

Yeah, I agree. I think the "Neos" on the monitors are all images from his mind, what he's thinking at the time but chooses to leave "unsaid". And when he goes "bull****!" and the monitors do too, it shows how strongly he felt that.

 

I, as well as others, do not think it is lame. It could be explained very well in the third movie. I don't think you can call it bad storytelling until you have the whole story.

then by that reasoning you cant make a judgement on it either

It is bad storytelling. All the work about Neo's journey, all of these mythological archytypes and heavy symbolizism, all the work that has gone into crafting the journey and character of Neo as well as the story will all be for naught. I understand how the matrix-in-a-matrix is appealing. It would be the ultimate twist, yes, i understand that. But that is appropriate for the Twilight Zone. If this were an hour long story, then i could see how this twist would throw the viewer for a loop. But when you build up a 7 hour story and then crash it all to the ground...for what? a twist? There is evidence to support both theories, i will admit that, but the matrix-within-a-matrix is just plain stupid. Its overkill and it renders the series pointless. The contrary theory makes ten times more sense and is in keeping with the storytelling of the series. These films are about the triumph of the human spirit over machines. If the Matrix-within-matrix storyline is to work, it would have to be revealed at the very end, making for a hell of a downer of an ending. Neo and the humans think they have won, but in the last minute it is revealed that they are simply in another prison. Yes, that would be a twist, but like i said, it would only work if this were an episode of the Twilight Zone. That is not the kind of films these are, and the Wachowski bros. are much smarter than this.

Unnecessary to stop a rebellion? I don't think so. The matrix within the matrix was the original matrix, and is accepted by 99% of humans. That is the point...the VAST majority accept it. And maybe "matrix inside the matrix" isn't the best way to describe it. Maybe "matrix connected to the other matrix" is a better term for it. Kind of like a sidestep to the original matrix. Then the other matrix (real world) can contain the 1% that won't accept the other.

Again, this is utterly pointless. And you have it backwards--since the "matrix" we know is the within a larger matrix, it would have come second. Therefore people wouldnt wake up from the second Matrix, they would wake up from the "Real World", which would be revealed to be our real-world (aka the matrix).

If the Real World is just another Matrix, then what is the point of all of this sentinal crap, and zion? the machines could simply delete certain things from the prgram. Look at the explosions in the Matrix, all the ripples and stuff that indicate it isnt real. This stuff never happens in the Real World (ie when the Neb gets blown up). None of the matrix-within-a-matrix theory holds any weight at all. Its like the Palpatine-is-a-clone-of-sidious theory--there are certain elements that could be stretched enough to be true, but there are overwhelming contradictions and explanaitions that say otherwise.

the original matrix was designed to be a perfect world, and that's why it was rejected. Smith told Morpheus that humans define their lives through suffering (or something to that effect). Well, If they don't accept the matrix that most people are willing to accept, make one that makes that other 1% suffer more. Once they leave the orignal matrix, they come to their "real world", which seems to be almost entirely suffering (aside from the horrific dance scene that WE had to suffer through...ugh!). So, if the don't suffer enough in the original matrix, REALLY make them suffer...they should accept that. But, I think Neo is the small percent who won't accept THIS version of the matrix, and the realization of this makes him drop into a coma after he stops the centinals(or maybe he even woke up in the real world).

come on man. This is just rediculous.

The original Matrix was perfect. Humans couldnt except this because, as was said, they define their lives through suffering. Ther

 

One odd thing I did notice watching it again tonight, did anyone see that the system name in the power grid is Z10N01? I have no idea what to make of that. Cute joke or revealing fact?

Thats very interesting. In the animatrix shorts, it is revealed that the machine nation was a giant city called Zero 1. Could this be related to Zion in some way? If so, how? The machine city was built in the cradle of civilization, somewhere in the middle east, probably close to where the original Biblical city of Zion was. I don't know if there is a point here, but its an interesting connection. Could the city of Zion actually be hundreds of miles beneath the original city of Zero 1?