CT Evidence in films that stormtroopers are not clones

Did he? He got them by that road block, otherwise he didn't say much about stormtroopers. Why not? He knew Luke and Han would be facing lots of them in the DS but never gave them any advice how to fight them best, at least that we know of. Why was that, if he had so much inside knowledge?

That part is true enough. But even if he did travel to other places during his exile, he would have done it very low-profile, and Luke or Owen would never have known about it. He did seem pretty familiar with Mos Eisley as being that "hive of scum and villainy". He would not have known that had he never been there at least once.

Agreed. Also, I doubt the Empire was after the Jedi at all anymore. Since the Jedi as an organization didn't exist anymore, they were no longer a threat. So my theory is that the Empire couldn't care less about the random Jedi living on some outpost planet. The hunt for them was pretty much over after Order 66. If they still were interested the troopers would have done some kind of search or had mugshots of all the surviving Jedi. But they weren't interested at all. 20 years later no one in the Empire really cared much about the Jedi, except for Vader of course. But even he never showed any interest in hunting down Obi-Wan and take revenge.

Ben had probably seen enough spacecraft in his younger days to immediately recognize a short-range fighter from a long-range one, without knowing the technical term TIE fighter. Just like we would be able to tell the difference between a sports car and truck, even if we were in prison for 20 years. Han probably, no, very likely, did know the model very well but felt no need to identify it to an old fossil and a farm boy, who he probably thought wouldn't know much about spaceships anyway.

 

@ sith loard 2015,

At the wreckage of the Jawa sandcrawer, Obi points out the laser blasts were precise and matched stormtrooper marksmanship instead of sand people. This suggests he may have had prior experience with them. Leia also states in her message that general Obi Wan once served in the clone wars so we know he is a war vet.

It is likely Obi may have had to travel to town to get supplies like like old time mountain men, but he probably would not have visited very often. He also may have followed Luke into various towns to keep an eye on him too.

Agreed, in fact they probably would not want to put up wanted Jedi posters as they would want the public to believe the Jedi were all dead. This is why in TESB, it seems Vader and Palps seem to keep Luke a secret and not put out wanted posters for him.

That makes sense about Han, and some of the lines were also to help explain to the audience that TIEs are bad guy ships. In 77, TIEs were not iconic like today.

 

It hasn't which is why the Jango clones are older than the other characters from the PT to the OT.



The Jango clones in AOTC, TCW and ROTS would be aged to be in their twenties. Hence having Bodi Taylor playing the older troopers in AOTC.



He was younger than Morrison, by a fair bit. He wouldn't look that much older in ROTS. That's why in "Rebels", Rex and the other clones who show up look older. It was also stated in TCW, that they had to stretch Jango's DNA, which was based on scripted dialogue from AOTC, where Obi-wan is told that Jango needed to offer up fresh DNA samples every so often. Lucas's initial intentions was that other DNA sources were utilized. It wasn't until later that he started to rethink this and after the sale, it became official.

But there would be more than just a million. Lama Su said that it takes less time to grow clones than before. So that they had made great strides. If the cloning aspect were still going, there could be as many as three to four million units rolled out.

That wound up being a plot point in TCW.

 

Well-trained Imperial soldiers hitting more precisely than a group of desert bandits? Isn't really that surprising I'd say. And no one ever denied Ben had served in the clone wars. But all that still doesn't make the ANH stormtroopers clones, which is the whole point here. It's pretty clear that well-armed Imperial troops could do a better job destroying an unarmed sandcrawler than some desert "Indians", clones or not. Yet again, no proof here.

Hard to say. We have no way of knowing how he spent those 20 years on Tatooine. For all we know he left the planet, went to Coruscant, met with Yoda on Dagobah or whatever. I find it hard to believe that he spent 20 years alone in his hut in the desert doing nothing.

They weren't? I remember seeing pictures of TIEs months before I watched the movie. Even then they became even more iconic than the Falcon, as well as the X-Wings. I didn't know then who the bad guys were, but the ship design seemed pretty unique to me.

 

There isn't any. Explanations have varied throughout the years on whether they are all clones or just some of them, but the only confirmed clone that is specifically of Jango is the one who bangs his head on the door in ANH.

 

Obi stated only stromtroopers shoot so precisely, which implies he has prior expeirence and knowledge of them in order to know. The line indicates Obi reconized the blast patterns of stormtroopers. In real life, indians were generally poorer with firearms than soldiers but were more deadly with arrows and easily out matched most soldiers with guns. It was not until the advent of repeating arms did soldiers gain a overwhelming advantage over arrows.


The films imply he spent 20 years looking after Luke, as he was the last hope in Obi view. I doubt he would leave the planet and risk Luke. He was hardly doing nothing with looking guard over the new hope.

I was refereing that in 77, the general movie goer did not know that TIEs are bad guy ships right away. These days, even lay people who do not know much about SW likely know TIEs are bad guy ships.

Vimes,

The CIS would be a bigger danger than the rebels with attacking and destroying the single source of clone troops, yet nobody brings that up. Using clones would have a very big plus for a police state like the empire, it would aid domestication of the general population by lack of training conscripted peons to be war fighters. That is the idea with the foreign legion, by conscripting people from outside the home country, the vets would then return home back to other countries and be their problem, while the home country's peons remain untrained in warfare and remain dependent and easy to control for the rulers.

 

I fail to see the difference.
The clones reach mature age in half the normal time.
So their cellular processes would be accelerated.
Metabolism, mitosis, growth and most likely lifespan.
If the clones cell replicate at twice the rate ours do then the rate of "mistakes" in DNA replication would also increase. And these "mistakes" are one of the things that cause "aging". At least that what some theorize.

The clones are mature both in body but also in mind. Sure their minds are somewhat tampered with and are less independent. But they don't behave or act like ten year olds.
So the clones "grow up quickly."
Partly that is likely due to training.

So I do think that clones would "age" faster and in 20 years time, they would be "old" and less useful.

That 1,2 million clones is pitifully inadequate for a galactic war is a problem for the PT films, this concerns the OT films.
Again, take the DS. Given it's huge size it could have 1 million storm troopers easily.
We see a tiny fraction of the whole thing and see what, 40-50 troopers?

Or take a ISD, how many storm troopers are on one of those?
Say 200? Now we don't get a number for the total number of ISDs but an old EU number is 25 000.
So 200 times 25 000 equals 5 million troopers.
So just on ships the empire has something like 6 millions storm troopers and now add planetary garrisons. 10 million would be tiny in the circumstances.

Plus, the empire has taken over territory that was not part of the republic, like Tatooine.

[/QUOTE]

Those republic ships we see are not warships.
On Geonosis, we see clones pilot transports and in RotS we see clones pilot fighters.
So clones are not just soldiers, they do pilot duty as well.
We see walkers but not who pilots them but given that clones are everywhere else in the battle, it is logical to assume that clones did pilot those as well.

But the Empire do use non-clones as pilots.
The pilots of the scout walkers in RotJ are not clones.
The pilots of the Vader shuttle are also not clones.

And the empire uses non-clones for guards, like on the DS.


So clearly the empire has expanded it's military to include regular humans in a lot of different roles.
Even mundane ones like guards. Why would regular humans be used for this if they had loads of clones?
Esp if clones are superior, cheaper and more docile.

Those SD in AotC.
Yoda goes to Geonosis and picks up the 200 000 clones that are ready PLUS a bunch of SD.
Apparently the Kamino people made them too?
Yoda gets to Geonosis about 30 minutes after Mace, who went there directly.
So it is unlikely that Yoda would have time to call on those SD from somewhere else and get there so quickly.
Plus, as both Mace and Dooku, says, the republic have no defenses other than the Jedi.
If they had big fleets of SD, crewed by non-clones, they would have been a big factor.
So again it seems that the Kamino people made those SD and crewed them with clones.

Again this is a problem that the PT films has, not the OT.
Plus an easy explanation exist, Sidious control both sides of this war and he can simply tell the seps to leave Kamino alone. He does not have this advantage with the rebellion in the OT.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

EU resolves that (given that Kamino has no visible shipyards) with Kuat Drive Yards having also been hired (subsidiary corporation - Rothana), to supply the wargear for the army.

 

But were they also hired by "Sifo-Dyas"?
Or did the Kamnino people hire them?

And now the number of people involved with building an army for the republic is growing.
And somehow no one in the senate or the Jedi have heard of this?
Did "Sifo-Dyas" pay for the army plus the fleet?
Now we are talking about a lot of money.
And if the crew on those SD are NOT clones then they would be regular people and now even more people are involved in this.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Most likely Dooku made that order, whether it was as Sifo-Dyas or as Tyranus. Dooku has a vast family fortune. He is a Count, after all. Not to mention that the Sith have been around in secret for a thousand years. Plenty of time to acquire vast wealth.

 

It seems highly unlikely that Dooku could personally finance a grand galactic army and fleet while also throwing in as leader of the separatist movement.

Presumably the Kaminoans got paid so there would have been a money trail. And I imagine they might have got suspicious that for years their location was not a matter of public record and had not had any customers from the Republic seeking them out, or any mail during that time.

Hang about. If Dooku can afford to finance a grand galactic army and part of the separatist cause, why doesn't he just do so for his own end of ultimately overthrowing his master and taking over the galaxy by taking command of the clone army himself, exposing Palpatine and attacking him with the clones? Presumably the Jedi and the senate would not oppose him if he provided proof which he no doubt had. And even if the Jedi did confront him or demand that he recognise the reformed senate after Palpatine was deposed and/or destroyed, Dooku could just 66 them.

 

Some theories view growth and aging as seperate processes and that aging is a preprogramed self destruct since wear and tear and toxin buildup do not completely account for the aging process. That is growth and aging are indeed seperate, growth is preprogramed expansion while aging is preprogramed decay to make room for the next generation. Again some theories suggest life evolved so lifeforms grow up, live at a optimum life span to reproduce with no regard for maximum longevity of the individual as reproduction is more important. All we know is clones grow up or mature faster as stated in the film, but nothing in the film states once they reach adulthood they age into old age faster, it would be more like they would be programed to age normally after reaching maturity as growth and aging are two different time clocks. It is very telling the film states GROWTH acceleration instead of age acceleration which many just presume.

I don't trust EU numbers or specs concerning the Death Star. For all we know, only the outer levels of the DS were habitable. Same thing with the size of the Imperial fleet as 25K is way larger than what the OT ever implies. If the Empire kept producing clone troops for 20 plus years, than there numbers would have grown, especially if they age normally after maturity.

As stated before, like with the Republic, the Empire did not have a permanent presence on Tatooine. The troopers were only there to fine the droids and did not remain after the events of ANH.

 

Sorry for the double post, but editing is not working.

Some theories view growth and aging as seperate processes and that aging is a preprogramed self destruct since wear and tear and toxin buildup do not completely account for the aging process. That is growth and aging are indeed seperate, growth is preprogramed expansion while aging is preprogramed decay to make room for the next generation. Again some theories suggest life evolved so lifeforms grow up, live at a optimum life span to reproduce with no regard for maximum longevity of the individual as reproduction is more important. All we know is clones grow up or mature faster as stated in the film, but nothing in the film states once they reach adulthood they age into old age faster, it would be more like they would be programed to age normally after reaching maturity as growth and aging are two different time clocks. It is very telling the film states GROWTH acceleration instead of age acceleration which many just presume.

I don't trust EU numbers or specs concerning the Death Star. For all we know, only the outer levels of the DS were habitable. Same thing with the size of the Imperial fleet as 25K is way larger than what the OT ever implies. If the Empire kept producing clone troops for 20 plus years, than there numbers would have grown, especially if they age normally after maturity.

As stated before, like with the Republic, the Empire did not have a permanent presence on Tatooine. The troopers were only there to fine the droids and did not remain after the events of ANH.

True, but they still are Republic pilots, piolting Republic ships. Just like in ROTJ were we see imperial officers similar to the Republic officers piloting shuttles. That both did not merely use just fighter pilots so I fail to see your point here.

We see stormtrooper style pilots fly TIEs and drive AT-AT walkers which is similar to the PT. Plus the non clone pilots you gave wear non stormtrooper style uniforms, shuttle pilots wear officer uniforms, and AT-ST drivers wear tan tech uniforms with officer helmets similar to what Veers wore. All you have proven here is non clone personal do not wear stormtrooper armor.

As for guards, it is like with the CIS on Mustafar where organic Nemodian guards were used instead of battle droids, or Nemodian techs were used in the Geo hangers. Why go though though the trouble of recruiting and training organics when you can cheaply mass produced preprogramed droids which are far less squishy?





Very similar to imperial guards eh? Both the CIS and Republic/Empire used their best for the front lines and used lower level personal for lower and rear echelon roles. MPs in real life usually are chosen from recruits who are too poor shots for the front line. My grandfather was placed in the coast guard in WW2 because of his poor eyesight. The imperial guards you posted likely served as MPs in the Empire as they rarely were in the front lines like stormtroopers.

The ships in AOTC, are not SDs but transports, and they could have been crewed by Kaminans initially. Later when VSDs were being built, the Republic then recruited officers from various places such as local defense forces or even freight lines. The fact we see human officers on VSD bridges shortly after the clone wars suggests they were used though much of the war. Otherwise, after the clone wars, the clones were quickly dropped, and recruits, were quickly signed up and rushed though training to replace the clones right away after the war ended, which is highly unlikely.

 

Imperial Navy Troopers, especially the death star troopers were not lower level personal, they often were the best troops of the navy personally picked to be on the death star. This is why we see them in detention areas and in the imperial joint chiefs conference room instead of stormtroopers.

And the Clone Wars Tv series very obviously shown that Clones were the majority of staff on VSD's, transports, ships, etc. They were all clone staff except high ranking generals, admirals, or captains who were non clones like admiral Killian. This quickly changed in star wars rebels where all imperial crew are non clones, Filoni has specifically stated this in designing the imperial crew for rebels.

 

There are both external and internal factors that contribute to aging.
External are things like living conditions, drinking and smoking, what you eat, exercise etc.
Among internal factors are errors in DNA that arise during replication.
When ever a DNA strand is replicated, mistakes happen.
The cell tries to correct these but a some slip through and since they become a part of DNA, they are cumulative.
These errors can give rise to cancer or make the cell simply shut down because the DNA is too damaged.
So, since the clones cells would replicate twice as often as humans do, they would have more of these errors.

The words, growth and age are used somewhat interchangeably when talking about humans.
Aging from child to adulthood is often called "GROWING up."
And aging to advanced age can be called "GROWING old."

So saying "growth acceleration" when you talk about clones reaching adult age twice as fast, why doesn't that also imply a faster aging process?

Also, clones soldiers are not really expected to live a long life because they are soldiers, they fight.
So the cloners would not really go out of their way to make sure the clones live for 50 years as that isn't really expected of soldiers.
And it makes sense for the cloners to have the clones live short lives as then they can sell new clones to the buyer in a few years time.

Even if we assume that only the outer levels are inhabited, that is still a HUGE volume.
The total volume is easily equal to 50 000 ISD if not more.
So the DS alone would require a huge number of troopers.
Plus, making more clones, Jango is dead so they can't use his material any more.
And since the Kamino people kept him around, it implies that they take fresh samples from him.

So say the DS has 5 million troopers. If that is say 1/4 of the total number of trooper then the destruction of the DS would be a huge loss of the total number of soldiers the Empire has under it's command.
And growing more clones will take time, but drafting recruits, that is much faster.

Except this is never stated directly IN the films.
Vader orders troops down to the planet to get the plans. It does not say if there were some down there already.
Given that they get animals from somewhere and the armor of the troopers looks rather aged, it seems that some have been down there for a while.
Plus they seemed to have some spies among the local population.

My point is simple, in the PT films, during the clone war, we only ever see Jedi and clones.
No human officers, no other soldiers. Just Jedi and Clones.
And we see clones do duties that we later see the empire have normal humans doing.
So the empire has expanded it's military to include large number of humans.
And ONLY humans and only white humans at that.
So clearly the empire has drafted or recruited a massive number of people to fill out their army and fleet.
So they are have expanded beyond the use of clones.
So if they are recruiting for all kinds of jobs, why would they exclude soldiers?
And training normal people is still faster than the ten years it takes to grow a clone soldier.

IF the republic had other pilots, officers and the like. Would all of them be humans?
Not likely.
But in the empire, all we see are humans. No aliens allowed.
So IF the empire took over the republic people, they clearly got rid off all the aliens.

[/QUOTE]

That the ships in AoTc are only transports is not established in the film. We see them transport troops yes but that they can't fight is not clear. Nor do we have any idea who piloted them.
Clones would be the most logical as we see only clones in the battle.

That the republic recruited officers and what not, that is also never shown.
Again, in the clone wars, all we see and hear about are Jedi and Clones.
So that the PT failed to show these other people in the republic army, that it it's problem.
And the end of RotS does show imperial officers but their appearance is both sudden and not set up. They are just there, no explanation offered.
And suddenly we see Tarkin, also with no set up or explanation who he is.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I don't know about them being top tier with their light armor and arms, the navy troopers look very much like rear echelon roles. Also their exact role in the films is hazy as they often interchanged between being guards or techs on the DS.

TCW often deviated quite a bit from the PT, such as having the gunships flying in space where the movie versions are open to the outside and clearly are low attitude aircraft like snow speeders. Plus the CIS in TCW had more advanced droid units that are never seen in the PT. I would chuck up clone officers as tv adaptation deviation from the films along with many other things in that show as clone officers never appear in the films along with ninja droids and space going gunships. Darth Maul being brought back in TCW is a major deviatation from the films. Rebels also deviates quite a bit from the films and is mostly Filoni's fanon as he is a huge EU fan and often interjects the EU into his stories. Stormtroopers being recruits is a EU concept that Filoni would support from being EU.

Last Dec in Disneyland, their gift shops were selling shirts that stated stormtroopers are clones. If you noticed, that despite being clones, they have different heights and weights. In real life, there would be some variation in clones due to environmental variances.



Here is the 1978 poster that states stormtroopers are clones.



So Disney has offically stated stormtroopers are indeed clones. Though they might be doing differentiated marketing where they sell stormtroopers are clones to casual viewers and sell stormtroopers are recruits to the so called hardcore fans who are deep into the aftermarket stories. Ironically, casual viewers probably have a clearly understanding of the films that fans who consume aftermarket media which often obscures the story of the films.

 

That the ships in AoTc are only transports is not established in the film. We see them transport troops yes but that they can't fight is not clear. Nor do we have any idea who piloted them.
Clones would be the most logical as we see only clones in the battle.

That the republic recruited officers and what not, that is also never shown.
Again, in the clone wars, all we see and hear about are Jedi and Clones.
So that the PT failed to show these other people in the republic army, that it it's problem.
And the end of RotS does show imperial officers but their appearance is both sudden and not set up. They are just there, no explanation offered.
And suddenly we see Tarkin, also with no set up or explanation who he is.

Both are former Republic officers, now Imperial officers. The empire just reused the Republic's stuff, such as SDs and walkers, so why not clones? TPM indicates the Republic had some officers, as well as officers hanging out at the bar in AOTC.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface[/quote]

 

The Sith were controlling both sides of the war. Chancellor Sheev Palpatine was the leader of the Republic and Darth Sidious was the leader of the Confederacy of Independent Systems. So, yeah, Dooku could finance the Clone Army and be with the enemy.

The Kaminoans existence wasn't a secret. They lived outside of Republic space and kept to themselves as Dex told Obi-wan.

OBI-WAN: "Kamino. I'm not familiar with it. Is it in the Republic?"

DEX: "No, no. It's beyond the Outer Rim. I'd say about, uh, twelve parsecs...outside the Rishi Maze. Should be easy to find, even for those droids in your archives. These Kaminoans keep to themselves. They're cloners. Damn good ones too."

He has no intention of overthrowing Palpatine, which is why he was surprised when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him.

 

So if Dooku has the backing to take over the galaxy by himself with the clones + the separatists. Why bother joining with Sidious?

Why would sidious bother with the whole drawn out charade if he and Dooku could simply take over the galaxy and not take ten years pretending to putting separatitsts against the republic?

Then why bother wiping them off the map? (That's the definition of attempting to keep their wherabouts a secret from those that don't already know) Clearly it was meant to impede anyone who hadn't heard of Kamino. Or had heard about them but didn't know their locatiion.

If Dex knows of them then it was clearly a futile gesture. It seems utterly implausible that the Jedi archive would be the only record of their location. Which makes it even more weird.

The Kimonoans keep to themselves yet they have a vast cloning facility. Presumably to make clones for the people they want kept from themselves. (?????)

Well then he's no Sith.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview; 1999. (Found this quote in one of your own posts explaining how the Sith master/apprentice dynamic works. It seems strange that you can't contemplate that Dooku would be the same as every other sith in this respect. There's no reference to any such distinction in the films, Quite the opposite, in fact.

You're talking about his surprise that Palpatine is ready to immeditely sacrifice him, even though they discussed turning him to the darkside together (according to Lucas) But that's indicative of the self centred mindest of the sith.

It would appear that if Dooku wanted to take over te galaxy (which is a defining aspect of a sith), or divide it, or just overhaul the corruption in the senate via regime change, he could have done so easily with the clone army he can afford to finance plus the separatist armies he can muster. No need for the extremely convoluted alliance with Sidious/Palpatine, whose only involvement with the clones seems to be having the ability to convince the senate to allow its use AFTER it is discoverd by Kenobi.

 

Because he had no desire to do so until Palpatine seduced him with the dark side of the Force.

Two thousand years ago, the Sith did that very thing and it didn't last. The Jedi and what was left of the Republic's forces, banded together with local systems and fought back against them. This time, the Sith are manipulating everyone into giving them the power to rule of their own free will. This is the end result of a thousand year plot that started with Darth Bane and ends with Darth Sidious. The Clone Wars was a smokescreen to create fear and instability, so that the Chancellor would be given all the major political powers necessary to rule. He could then eliminate the Jedi through Order 66 and with the Death Star in place, the Empire would last longer than before. In doing all of this, the Force is pushed out of balance and the Sith gain all the advantages.

The point wasn't really to hide Kamino, but to manipulate the Jedi into coming there. The Jedi don't really know about Kamino and have no reason to go look until the saber dart is used. The fact that Dex knows is irrelevant. He knows because he was a miner who had spent time near Kamino and thus knew all about them. As to other star maps, the Jedi Archives contain the most complete map out there. But he has no need for the map until after he determines where the saber dart comes from. Since the Analysis Droids proved useless, Obi-wan goes to Dex and he points Obi-wan in the right direction. Once he's found where Kamino is supposed to be, that's when he finds the location is missing and questions both Jocasta and then Yoda. He doesn't need to go looking at another map, because he knows where it is based on Dex's testimony.

OBI-WAN: "I'm looking for a planet described to me by an old friend. I trust him, but the systems don't show on the Archive maps."

No, because the have no interest in galactic politics. They'll only interact if there is a profit to be had in it. Dooku came to them with an offer to create and army and proved that he had the funds to pay for it.

Dooku never attempts to take over and become leader. He wants Obi-wan on his side to help him, just as he helped Palpatine and Maul to start the Clone Army and later on, he had recruited Asajj Ventress to help him with the Jedi. Later on, Palpatine wants her eliminated as he fears that she will become a problem and so Dooku goes along with it. Later on, Palpatine tells him that they're going to recruit Anakin to replace Ventress.

Palpatine lied to him about the role Anakin was going to play and he was shocked at that. He was told that he would stop Anakin from killing him and when he didn't, and instead told him to finish him off, Dooku realized that he was being betrayed.

He could have, but he didn't. He was a Sith, he just wasn't as greedy as Vader was and wasn't as cunning as Palpatine was.

 

Except Disney's Rebels has specifically gone out of their way to differentiate the Clones from the Stormtroopers, and Rebels is canon while gift shop T-shirts and newspaper clippings from 1978 aren't.

 

But is still officially approved merchandise that treats stormtroopers being clones as common knowledge because it is common knowledge among the general public. Plus the films themselves imply stormtroopers are clones and hopefully the films, the core of Star Wars still trumps ancillary media like spinoff cartoons.

Moreover, this is a topic about evidence from the films, not from cartoon shows, t shirts, etc. So lets post evidence from the films.





In film proof that small talk is not proof of being a normal human.





Obi-Wan, sneaking around stormtroopers for 20 years.





Stormtrooper's answer to everything.









Clones bring Hell with them.





Clones are born with discipline.





The Fetts are easily surprised.

 

Your point being?Nobody's talking about before he turned to the dark sde?

And when he did turn to the darkside why not immediately use his wealth to do so?

???????? There are no republic forces, which is why an army is needed. The Jedi admit that they are not an army and cannot fight wars. So the clone army could have dealt with them, which they do even though they are fiighting the droid armies at the same time in ROTS. With no opposition or distraction whatsoever, the clones could have taken over the galaxy for whomever commanded them.

The galaxy is taken over by force. The only thing the charade achieved was the facade of legitimacy. But the galaxy is supposedly so corrupt that it would not seem to have been that important there winds up being a rebellion, conceived even before the Empire is formed. So it was all a waste of time, ultimately.

Complete and utter nonsense. Wiping it from the map delayed Obi Wan by a couple of hours, after he'd established that his evidence came from there.

Who said anything about politicians?

So you don't agree with the Lucas quote you yourself have invoked to define how all Sith constantly struggle for supremacy over their enemies and each other.

Please. Dignity.

 

No, there's a difference. Read the quote again. The Sith don't start betraying each other right off the bat. They only do so when they have multiple Sith working together, that you have a power grab. When you have a Sith who decides that he has had enough and becomes ambitious enough to want to do it. Look at Palpatine. He killed Plaugeis after years of subservience to him, which lead him to find Maul and begin training him, before or after killing his Master in his sleep. He just didn't do it right away. He waited. Biding his time until the opportunity presented itself.

Darth Maul had no intention of turning on Palpatine when Dooku was recruited. He was content to work with him, same with Dooku working with Maul and Palpatine. Maul only became ambitious when he found out that the war had started and that had been overlooked and forgotten by Palpatine. That he didn't bother to find his body. So he and his brother Savage teamed up to overthrow Palpatine and Dooku, but the former found out and dealt with Savage. Then he worked with Dooku and Grievous to take out Mother Talzin who could be a threat to him. Later on, Maul found Ezra and decided to try and turn him, so that they could take out the Sith and the Inquisitors. But this plan lead him to Obi-wan and to his eventual death.

Anakin only starts thinking about turning on Palpatine due to his power and being drunk with it. But then Obi-wan takes him down a peg and so now he has to wait. He finds the Inquisitors, but none of them are suitable enough to be his Apprentice. So he waits. Then he finds out about Luke and decides that he wants to turn him so that he can overthrow Palpatine.

Dooku doesn't want to turn on Palpatine right now. He's not yet ambitious enough. Palpatine thought that he might be, which is why Ventress was taken out, before she could be used against him. Obi-wan was meant to fill the role that she filled. He cannot go against Palpatine and Maul, because he will not win that fight. With Maul out of the way, he needed someone else. But that never came to pass and was unaware that Palpatine was going to eliminate him all the while.

Why don't you quote the entirety of what I said?

The Republic did have an army once. Back during the last war with the Sith, over a thousand years ago. After the war ended, the Republic disbanded their armies and relied on the Jedi Order to maintain the peace, with local security on various worlds, handling other matters.

The Senate gave him power. The Sith didn't take it by force like last time. That's the whole point of Palpatine becoming Chancellor and having Emergency Powers granted to him and then gaining more and more political powers, until he declared the new order and eliminated his enemies. Taking by force would be the Separatists attacking Coruscant and killing everyone in the Senate, without going through all the pretense of having power handed to them. The formation of the Alliance had to do with trying to get the Chancellor to turn over control back to the Senate, as he claimed that he would do when the crisis had abated. Once the Empire was formed, then it became an organization dedicated to overthrowing the Emperor and restoring the Republic. Essentially taking control by force.

It wasn't about delaying him. It was to draw him to Kamino. It was to give the Jedi a reason to think that there was something important on Kamino besides Jango.

I wasn't referring to politicians. I was referring to the state of affairs in the Republic. They don't care about what goes on in the Republic. They don't care about the growing Separatist movement. They just keep to themselves and if someone wants some clones, they'll gladly make some for a hefty fee.

 

Complete and utter minestrone.

Maybe in Bizarro-world..