FF/501st discussion thread

NOTE: I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything with this post. I'm interested in knowing why it is, as SW fans, that there seems to be a distinction between FF & 501st. Both sides are invited to share their opinions.

From another post:
The is an "unwritten" rule of FF/501st, but the groups that communicate and are cool with each other see thru that. (ex:NJO/MEPA and NER)

Why is there an unwritten rule?
What is it?
I've talked to a couple people offline about this and the general opinion seems to be that since the 501st are recognized by LFL they think they're a step above the common fan.
Have you ever met 501st? (Or FF if you're 501st)
What was your experience?

 

I've been told by a few, mind you not all the 501st people I have met that if you don't have armor you aren't a real fan. That always pissed me off.

 

Well, I'm a member of the 501st, and Rebel LEgion, as well as FF. And I can tell you for the most part, there is no distinction, outside of the fact that you NEED a costume to join either the 501st or Rebel LEgion. But there are exceptions. There are people who believe that the little stamp of approval from LFL gives them some bragging rights.

Or that spending upwards of $1000 for a Movie Quality Costume puts them above the common fan.

This is unfortunate. Cause when it comes down to it, This is all a Hobby. Not a single one of us makes any money from this (in the case of the RL/501st, it's forbidden)

As a member of both 501st and RL, yes, that Stamp of approval is a source of pride for me. It has allowed me to take part in some exclusive events, and the oppurtunities for CIII are nice. But that doesn't mean I think any less of the FF.

Seeing the elitist attitudes does bother me as well, I just think it's a minority, a more vvisible minority, but one none the less.

 

If those people want to think that they're superior to us just because they have costumes (or whatever the reason is), that's their loss.

 

I am a member of the Rebel Legion fan group (jedi outfit), and as of Dragoncon a member of the 501st fan group, when I gte my collar done on my Imperial Officers outfit.

I am a proud member of the Boston Rebels, who would like to see us get to work with the other groups. Locally it is the 501stNEG ( 501st New Englad Garrision). There is also in our area the NER, which is the North East Regement.. I think... am I right -DG- ???? your from there.....along with Reaper....and many more I know

I for one,would like to see the groups work together on events in the Boston area, and once I am a full member of the 501st NEG, I will be asking my friend who is the XO of the group for New England, what the Boston Rebels can do for events with them, at like convention in the area... if it is agreed upon for the 2 groups to do things together for some events......

I will be talking to our wonder CR today about this at todays LOTR exhibit meet.

By the way ......

I am also a fan who will be in a Timothy Zahn book in 2005, due to the Matters Of The Force charity Auction at Dragoncon two years ago, when I bid on the walk on role in one of his upcomming SW books... I will be a jedi on the Outbound Flight Project book, towards the end of the year. I am also working on a SW fan film, and plan on going to CIII next year also.

Sincerly,
Justin Manning
Rebel Legion Jedi
Boston Rebel for Fanforce
Star Wars Fan Film writer
and future 501st Imperial Officer

and in future a LOTR costumer also( Legolas outfit )

 

wow, that was alot of info.

thanx,justin...I think.

Just talk to the respective 501st in your area. They are good people. If need be- goto the XO or CO and keep it strictly business. That's where it starts.

Be a bigger person and make the first move. Time to bridge the gap.

~DG~





~DG~

 

Originally posted by TK7602 (aka Brian) in a duplicate thread:

Hello all,

I don't post on theforce.net boards often, and I haven't posted here under this account ever (but I have in the past under my old login, bunicula).

In reading the discussion about Supermegafest, I was sad to see the tension / hard feelings between the 501st and the Fanforce. I think we're all SW fans, and should be able to easily co-exist.

For my background: I'm a member of both the Rebel Legion and the 501st, as well as a member of these forums.

From what I can see, from old posts here, old posts on the New England Garrison lists, and from talking to people in both groups, there is just a fundamental difference between the groups.

Ultimately, I want to try to dispell the thoughts that the 501st is elitist or snobby. It's really as simple as this: we have rules that all 2500+ members worldwide have to abide by. It's not a matter of anyone trying to judge people, or looking down on people, it's just a matter of following the charter of the group.

The Rebel Legion and 501st are primarily costuming groups, and because of that, costume quality is one of the biggest concerns at an event. The 501st is a world wide group that is governed by a charter with very explicit requirements regarding age and costumes. If a costume is not "screen accurate", it can't be worn at an official 501st event.

The Fanforce is a fan group with some members that do costumes and others that don't. The 501st also has a minimum age requirement, where this group doesn't.

I think that if someone spends $20 or $2000 on their costume, it's cool that the person is getting dressed up at all. If someone wants to spend a ton of time and money on a costume and join the 501st, that's awesome, but I don't think that means that every fan needs to be that intense about it.

It's true that the Fanforce and the 501st don't collaborate on things in the New England area. I think that's really just because the groups have different objectives. But just because we don't actively work together doesn't mean that we are in any way *against* one and other.

I personally am glad to see that the Fanforce group will be represented at Supermegafest, and look forward to meeting other SW fans in the area.




Brian

 

Me again...

This thread was from a long stretch where I hadn't been reading these boards, so I had no idea it existed.

If a 501st or RL person says that someone isn't a real fan for not having a fancy costume, that person definitely isn't speaking for the whole group. Any events I've been at, we've talked about what we do, why we do it, what's involved in joining, and if people want to join, great! If they don't, that's great too.

The best example I've seen personally was at a Rebel Legion event, where the dreaded topic of "bathrobe jedi" came up. The folks from the RL basically said that a karate gi and a brown bathrobe did not a Rebel Legion costume make. They then went on to explain the whole official-events-lfl-recognized-blah-blah-charter thing that we all probably know about. It was never "you stink because your costume isn't as good as ours", it was just a simple "you need to do XYZ if you want to join the RL", combined with lots of advice and help with doing XYZ, if desired. At no time did people snicker or make fun of the "bathrobe jedi" that was in the room at the time. After the discussion she was talking with a RL member about "upgrading" her costume. It was all very friendly and fun.

The fact that the 501st and Rebel Legion are costume-centric groups with pretty strict rules and regulations won't ever change. People will always need to have a movie accurate costume to be part of an "official" event... it's just the nature of the groups.

At the same time, that doesn't mean that everyone needs to be a costumer to be an active part of the fan community.

I suspect that like anywhere there are extremists in both groups: 501st people that think non-costumed fans are poodoo, and FF people that think the 501st are elitist snobs. And somewhere in the middle of those extremes is reality

 

was this the RL panel at Dragoncon ????

It was a good panel with alot of explaination of the reasons the way things are for events organized by LFL.

With the upcoming events over the next year. LFL will be asking most likely for the groups to work together again.

I hope that the groups can see that, as is the case with Boston Rebels... Alot of new members have come into the group and alot have left.

Not the same group of people as when CII, Episode I or II or IMAX was out either..

Alot of new faces, and new leadership...

Do not take anger against ANY club based of charters or prior members.

Look at who they are now, and see what we can all acieve working as friends with a common love of SW.

justin Manning

 

Look at who they are now, and see what we can all acieve working as friends with a common love of SW.

 

My post is long overdue here, I know, but better late than never. Brian, again, I really appreciate your posting here. For the record, I have never personally encountered a problem with the 501st here or anywhere else I've been involved with FanForce. There has been friction between our two groups before but I wasn't a member at that point in time.
Now, to respond to some of your specific points:

It's true that the Fanforce and the 501st don't collaborate on things in the New England area. I think that's really just because the groups have different objectives. But just because we don't actively work together doesn't mean that we are in any way *against* one and other.

I really don't see how our objectives are so different. Don't we both come together due to a common love for Star Wars, and don't we both strive to do good things with that? I'm a member of the Cleveland FanForce (JKOC) and they work closely with the 501st and Rebel Legion on so many activities! Some of the JKOC members are in costume for these activities, and others aren't. Enjoying costuming helps for that kind of working relationship but I don't think it's necessary. I really don't understand why our two groups couldn't enjoy some teamwork once in a while. I mean, we're all fans after all.

This thread was from a long stretch where I hadn't been reading these boards, so I had no idea it existed.

I figured, don't worry about it. It's just better to keep all the discussion in one place and it was no problem to move things around to do that.

where the dreaded topic of "bathrobe jedi" came up

Now don't think that I didn't read the rest of your post when I say this, because I did, but it bothers me a bit that the term "bathrobe jedi" even exists. I don't know, it just seems kind of derogatory towards a fan that might be doing the best he or she can with the resources at his or her disposal to put together a costume he or she may be truly proud of. I understand completely why such a costume isn't appropriate for the Rebel Legion, but the name you use unavoidably implies that the fan in question is inferior in some way. I know that's not your intention, but you have to understand that this is how you come across to a lot of people.

I think what Dex said nails the issue perfectly:
I've talked to a couple people offline about this and the general opinion seems to be that since the 501st are recognized by LFL they think they're a step above the common fan.

You may not see this issue as a problem with your group, but it comes up all over the world between FFs and their local 501st chapters, so it's naturally a concern for us as a group. However, I really am looking forward to seeing you guys at the con in November. I enjoy meeting fellow fans as much as the next person, and I think armor's hot...so yeah.

I'd like to see more crossover members between our groups and some teamwork in the future, but let's work on meeting and some socializing first.

 

I started NJO to help people and do some good. I met a bunch of troopers at an event and inquired about their costumes. They gave me a few ideas and options on where to get them. I asked if it was ok to join, because they were pretty much doing the same thing I wanted to do and they said yes. That part was good.
I then asked a couple of them that lived 5 minutes from my house if they would like to join the NJO. One of them told me: "you CAN'T be 501st and FF" in a very "No F way" demeanor. This part was bad.

Then the great rift came. Fire, brimstone, infidelity.

The one group split off into two groups. The new faction works closely with the NJO and FF, while the older faction remaind vigilant in their beliefs.

the result: members of the old defecting - Charity events with BIG turnouts (thanks to crossmemberships) and a new found era of cooperation.

MY POINT BEING: It's all attitude. Got one? Leave it home. Were in this to help people and have a good time.

p.s.- the guy who made the "CAN'T be 501st" comment was at an NJO meeting a few months ago, and turned out to be a good friend.

snoogins

~DG~

 

Well I'm a member of
NJO FF
Rebel Legion
501st NER
The Jedi Assembly
and the NJSWCC
I consider myself an active member of ALL these groups and LOVE to work with the people in these groups.


I think the main reason is sometimes people forget that this is FUN and a hobby!!!!

 

and I CAN NOT WAIT TO SEE THE LAST TWO PEOPLE WHO POSTED IN NOVEMBER at the Convention....

and RJ ... congrads I heard you didnt look at the camera last time you went for the famn film shoots

hehehe

I so need to show GARY the teaser for it .... lol

Justin Manning

 

regarding the bathrobe jedi comment - that's why i used the "dreaded" in there. that is the sort of sterotypical rift, much more so than with the imperial costuming stuff. the "bathrobe jedi" is a term that gets used all over the place, on every sort of star wars board / list / etc i've ever seen. everyone knows the connotations of it, and knows exactly what it means.

it is an awkward situation: on one hand, it's great that someone loves the movies enough to dress up. on the other, it's just not possible to have a costume like that join a costuming club.

so then the people in charge of the RL membership approvals have to go back to someone and say "i'm sorry, your costume doesn't meet the standards of the group". and it's *really* hard to say something like that *without* sounding elitist or snobby. it's tough to pull that off without sounding like you're saying "you aren't good enough for us". fortunately i've never been in that position, and never plan to be

as far as the objective differences go... i'm not thinking of the higher causes we all work for, i'm thinking about the sort of basic requirements. for FF events, costumes aren't required. for formal RL or 501st events, the costumes are required, and are required to look a certain way.

for example, at night at dragocon i was wearing the upper body of my trooper armor with a kilt, but if i showed up for the woburn halloween parade, i wouldn't be doing anything other than standing on the sidewalk watching it

so, if the RL and FF are doing an event together, how does one keep that sort of visual standard in place without being a jerk?

there's also the "cya" portion of things (cover your a$$)... part of the much talked about relationship with LFL is that we need to remain aware that we are representing the franchise in general, and that we follow the rules. people who aren't part of the group may not know the rules, and can't really be expected to follow them if they don't know them.

a quick, off the top of my head example, someone in a jedi costume smoking in front of a group of kids would be a Bad Thing. the last thing anyone wants is for someone to start writing letters talking about the rebel legion setting a bad example in front of kids.

also a bad thing would be for a 16 year old to get whacked in the head with a lightsaber and rushed to the hospital to get stitches. then suddenly the parents are yelling at the RL about hurting a minor. this is what the RL/501 have minimum age requirements - everyone needs to be legally responsible for themselves.

so because of that, the easiest way for us to make sure we stay in safe territory is to just not do collaborative events. then we don't have to worry about people being underage, or swearing, or whatever. blanket policies like that stink, but they are the safest way to go.

i've been dealing with the same problem at work - some people want us to "adjust" the rules to help them out. each request on its own is perfectly reasonable, makes sense, and would be easy to do. but, when you have 50 developers, and everyone wants 1 special tweak, you've now got 50 little tweaks. eventually it gets nuts. so as a result, we frequently say no to things that make perfect sense, just to preserve the overal order of things.

something like supermegafest is perfect, because the RL is doing their thing, the 501st is doing theirs, and the FanForce is doing theirs (for curiosity - the RL and the 501st are working separately as well. the groups will certainly ham it up with each other, but the planning and such is all being done separately). the end result is that the people at the con all get their star wars fix, and everyone can get to know each other a bit, but each group remains independant and responsible for themselves and their own members.

ah well, i'm sleepy now... so much so that i'm not even going back to proofread that before bed. if i said anything stupid, i blame the tiredness.

 

Thanks for taking the time during your tiredness to make that post. It sounds so much better and is easier to understand why things are the way the are.
I've thought of joining the RL but really don't think I'd have the time to commit unfortunately.
I'm definately looking into a costume for C3 but have to keep it under wraps for now since I don't want anyone copying my idea I'm going for a more low-key average Joe SW inhabitant. Not a movie/EU character but someone that might live in the same galaxy.
The problem I'm having so far is trying to piece together "the look". I don't want to look like a specific character but it has to look SW-ish.
(*heads off to poke around in the costuming forum*)

 

on thing I would like to add is that when you join the Rebel Legion, there is no mandatory commitment to anything. You don't have to do anythiung more then submit a picture to the legion, and be listed as a member.

Anything you do after that is for your benefit really. Being a member just gives you the opertunity to take part in any event they are doing, if you have time.

Bottom line, this is a hobby, and expensive one at times, yes, but still a hobby.

I also think that The 3 Groups can do co-operative events. Yes, the standards are different, but I have seen it done. Every event can use non-costumed volunteers to handle things. Over the past 2 years here in the NYC area, all three groups have been able to do events successfully, working together.

You do have to take into concideration the age requirements, And that is when it falls to the leadership of Fan Force (because of the no age limit) to make sure the kids are looked after. Preferribly by their parents. But that goes for some RL and 501st members who bring children. Are they members? no, could they be in costume, Yes, most definately. Thge same worries are present.

 

nicely put ed

 

Like Ed said... there isn't really all that much of a comitment, other than the $$ on the costume.

The RL in the Boston area is *really* small, so we're not particularly active, though hopefully that will be changing.

What RL costume are you thinking about doing?

I'm almost done with my Jedi 3.0. My first one was pretty crappy, my second one was well done but didn't fit right (I could have smuggled a few jawas in the tunic!), the 3rd one is coming along nicely.

The hardest part of a really good jedi (IMO) is the boots. The rest of it is pretty easy.

 

If you don't wanna announce the costume, you can feel free to email me, and I'll help you any way I can. I am the LEgion CO in these parts lol. I'm no Jedi Expert, but I've aquired a little knowledge in just about all the ares of RL costuming. And can at least point you in the right direction.

And my Imperial Knowledge grows day by day.

The offer stands to everyone who wants to start costuming.

What should be gotten from Improving relations is that Although the RL and 501st has high costuming standards, it helps everyone more if those who have made the costumes help those who want to join.

It's always been my practice that if someone is not granted membership, to contact the person and see what I can do to help. Have I always done this, Sadly no, Cause Real life can really sick at times. but Everyone should always feel free to contact me, either here or on the RL boards.

 

HERE HERE ED!!!

Now the other side of reality:

You know I read somewhere that a guy bought a 14.99 clone costume and want to hang with the 501st.

So, if I spent almost $800 + on my costume and got into 501st casue of my hard work (and is almost 85%screen accurate), should I be subjected to trooping with a 14.99 costumer?

Hmmm...discuss.

~DG~

 

If that's the same thread I saw in the costuming board I think he was asking for people's opinion on his Halloween costume. And it's been talked to death there, hehe.
Thanks for all the words of encouragement, you RL people! As for my RL costume, I'd probably go with a Rebel Fleet Trooper, being fairly easy and inexpensive and I've always liked the look. Everyone does Jedi and I just have a thing about doing a "name" character if I don't look like them, call me crazy
The more I talk about it, the more I want to do it...so thanks!

 

I have the same thing about name characters. Unless Of course I make the name for the character

Fleet Trooper was my first costume as well. And for the most prt it is simple, and inexpensive. Where you really can't avoid some money being put down is the helmet. Cheapest one I've seen is about $150 or so.

My Current RFT Costume isn't exact, cause I didn't do the shirt correctly. lol, There are some excelent Tutorials for ti out there as well.

Not to mention you would be joining Fire Team Echo when you join the LEgion. My Team!!! And people who know me can tell you, I'm a good guy to have around in a light fight!

God and the Force loves the INFANTRY!

 

I also share the name character thing. That's what I loved about Episode II... it really opened up the Jedi world.

I did a Jedi costume, but I often think about putting together something else. I tend to lean toward X-wing pilot. I think that if we manage to get more RL people in the greater Boston area, I'd be more inclined to start pumping money into it.

On the Imperial side, I stick to totally generic: Stormie, Tusken and soon a Royal Guard. I could probably pull off a Fett, but I'm still a bit too heavy for it. Another 15 pounds or so and I'll be there. I just can't *afford* either Fett. Way too short for Vader.

I would at some point like to do one of the other bounty hunters. Probably Dengar, though Bossk would be neat.

 

If I ever did any of the hunters it would be Bossk, always liked him for some reason.

As for making the RL more active in your area, I'm working on it, And please do a pilot lol. Since I completed that costume, I've been looking to recruit more pilots, I think it's one of the most recogniible Rebel costumes (outside the face characters) and it's fairly comfortible to wear around.

When I come up for Super Mega Fest, I'll be bringing the pilot. I'll try to talk you into it then :0 along with anyone else I can tiue down for 5 minutes of conversation lol

As for Imperial, I think My Imperial Gunner is as far as it's going. That, and when the final Screen accurate Jumpsuit is done,. I'll get an officer's hat and do a Imperial Crewman costume.

Now, as a matter of curiosity, how many more of the boston Rebels here are interested in costuming? either Imperial or Rebel. I think we can turn this thread from questinging the relationships of the three groups into a general costuming one.

OIr should we start a new one?