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ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Pro Scoundrel , Jan 3, 2020.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The mistakes were:

    —giving him a crush on Rey if it was never intended to be requited
    —the bully “humor,” of which the unrequited crush on Rey was part of it
    —the godawful stereotyping/traditional portrayal of Black male characters—the goofy sidekick, drinking from a trough, working in sanitation—some of which also made him the target of bully “humor”. I don’t know how much of that portrayal was planned when they were considering a white actor, but when Boyega was hired, the bad stereotypes should have been considered.
    —as you said, shunting him to the side

    The buddy dynamic with Poe was great, and I like that Rose eventually developed a crush on Finn. Otherwise the trilogy should have done much, much better by him.
     
  2. Triad Moons

    Triad Moons Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2020
    I liked to think Abrams was genuinely invested in diversifying Star Wars because his filmography -- particularly as an executive producer --- trends in that direction where it isn't present or center in the backgrounds of Disney, LucasFilm, Johnson or Trevorrow. He's really the only person involved in the production of the Sequel Trilogy (who wasn't Boyega, Isaac, or even Tran) that seemed genuine in his dialog about that.

    But if Abrams had to fight to keep Boyega as Finn, then I think his biggest mistake was, a): not committing to the trilogy, b): trusting that everyone that wasn't him would go to bat for Boyega instead of selling him under the river, c): trusting anyone would've adhered to those film treatments Ridley says he drafted (if that meant the dynamic he established in TFA would've remained intact) as opposed to going in a direction that would've disadvantaged Boyega and story overall (which they did).

    I liked to think Abrams has good intent behind his casting choices in TFA, but in the end his choice to adhere to TLJ and all its problems just rendered those intentions meaningless (performative), on top of shine a big spotlight on his own issues with characterizing Black and Brown characters moreso than TFA did.

    Effectively. Whether Finn and Rey's relationship ended up trending towards romance or remained platonic, the fact that LucasFilm decided everyone she had zero relationships (or chemistry) with were better options than the only character she shared development with at the start means they've got an anti-Blackness problem they're not particularly interested in resolving.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  3. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    But...?
    There was an interracial love story, between Finn and Rose, in TLJ.
     
  4. Adept

    Adept Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Then they botched it, because they have Rose spring a kiss on Finn....and then do nothing with it...and don't actually show him reacting to it positivily...he acted more confused than anything. By TROS they barely interact and Finn has a new female friend to hang with... for the 30 minutes or so she's in the film.
     
  5. Triad Moons

    Triad Moons Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2020
    That has zero to do with what I said. That only reinforces the point I was making about LucasFilm and other crew's anti-Blackness. The non 'romance' between Finn and Rose is born of the exact same problems as Johnson legitimizing Reylo and Trevorrow's Damrey out-of-nowhere, both of which are born of the director's rejection of Finn as a lead, protagonist, and Rey's only genuine relationship.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  6. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    Rey isn't a real person, she's written and directed by white directors and writers. Those writers/directors decided, for whatever reason, to have Rey not fall for her Black best friend, who she'd managed to bond with in a very healthy way, and instead have a random kiss with Poe in DOTF, with zero build up, and kiss the white man who stalked and harassed her for three movies once he decided to ditch his evil ways.

    I don't think Disney set out to be racist, but that speaks volumes about how they view Black characters. There is absolutely no reason why Finn and Rey couldn't have become a couple. They aren't real people. Writers decide what they do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  7. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    Honestly, I feel that the damage done is irreparable. I'd rather just move on and even pretend as if the DT never even happened. Not only were the legacy characters utterly destroyed, but the new generation of characters were dragged as well. In my eyes, rey is a horrible person who is now a knock off bella swan type. Poe is a schitzo, and Finn is a space janitor that pined for a girl who force pushed him away and secretly made out with a school shooter. Its just doo doo at this point. I'd like a brand new story with all new characters in a timeline set about 40 years after this mess.
     
  8. afrojedi

    afrojedi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2015
    I don't picture Disney investing the resources it would take to undo this, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
     
  9. Beta Vox

    Beta Vox Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2019
    Meh, Rose was 'Finned' anyway. Top choice was Bel Powley. Even Daisy Ridley was dropping hints she'd got the role. If I remember correctly she spoke about not wanting to be the girlfriend of character. After watching TLJ I think she even got as far as reading the script because that is all Rose, was for. A divergence from Rey. Rian Johnson was nothing but cynical in removing Finn from Rey's story. Finn story should have ran parrel with Rey at the heart of the story an equal but all he was intrested in doing was pittying up Kylo making him a one dimensional character. Am sorry but after TLJ Kylo was then on a par with Jar Jar. Finn should have been on that island with Rey instead of that silly side plot on canto bite. Pair Rose with Poe if you have too, not leave the two main characters separated for one hug at the end. Rose and Finn should have been scratched at the start. All Rose was, was a narrative tool. That's probably why a lot of rumoured stars were not cast. It was horribly conceived character and I will go out on a limb and say Kelly is better than that.
     
  10. reyvision

    reyvision Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2017
    I think Disney knows they have a very divided fanbase over the ST. I think they'll probably ignore it for a long time, much like they did with the PT. Which is sad, because I think the ST characters had potential, especially Finn, before they botched everything.
     
  11. Troopa212

    Troopa212 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 2016
    Or for a more accurate comparison, audiences just aren't interested in Kylo/Ben or Rey for that matter. So there should be no more content featuring them. I'm kidding of course, but doing so to make a point. The point being that if Finn is not the main character here, and that is what certain people eagerly point out, he cannot then be blamed for not bringing in a certain percentage of audience members. Then have that blame be used to argue against the idea of him getting films where he is the main character.


    It's a leap in logic to assume that a character can't draw in a particular audience when they haven't really been given the chance. Black Panther was a supporting character in CA:CW and yet his solo outing did better than most of if not all the other movies before it. There were probably people making assumptions about the viablity of black supehero led films before that. I think Finn could do something similar, obviously not on that scale, but big enough to draw in a portion of the black audience to where people take notice. Especially if it's made and marketed right.
     
  12. vaderito

    vaderito Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2016
    LFL could have changed that and made IX and X, just like how Marvel turned previously announced Avengers 3 into Avengers Infinity War and Avengers Endgame. Lets not forget that Avengers Age of Ultron wasn't as well received as the Avengers so there was a lot of riding on the next movie(s) to get the franchise back on track. So if LFL felt that ST story needed more time [to get back on track after TLJ], they could have turned a trilogy into a quadrilogy, tradition be damn. Storytelling should dictate number of movies, not number of movies the story. Which was the case with Infinity War and Endgame. They needed 2 movies for the story, they got it and result is an immeasurable success. So my guess is that LFL didn't feel they needed one more movie.

    But, IMO, there should have been IX and X because TFA and TLJ covered a span of few days. IX was going to have a time jump so two movies (IX and X) would even out with TFA and TLJ. Moreover, since JJ was trying to re-write TLJ and close not just ST but all 9 movies, that was too much for only one movie. But LFL clearly didn't feel the same so trilogy it remained.

    Nah. I think Colin Trevorrow has a traditional taste like old school fanboys (also see Collider set who shipped Rey and Poe since TFA) so to him Poe was the only traditional hero in ST and therefore he should have got the girl. Finn was a comic relief and Kylo was a villain so they didn't get girls or main girls in traditional action-romance movies. And Finn and Rose were kinda couple in the script anyway. If you look at Poe's TROS outfit (that I have a sneak suspicion may have been a relic from CT era), it resembles Owen's (rolled up sleeves)

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    so that's simply the kind of romantic hero that CT is comfortable with. No conspiracy to sabotage anyone. Just personal preference. He watched TFA and TLJ and obviously didn't see Rey with either Finn or Kylo, hence asking Rian to add Rey and Poe meet cute at the end of TLJ.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2020
  13. EHT

    EHT ST/Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Note: The bolded line above crosses the line of accusing the filmmakers of being racist, which is considered bashing. Maybe they were insensitive to how things would be perceived by the audience... we don't really know... but to automatically say something happened because of racism is too much.
     
    TCF-1138 and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  14. Bor Mullet

    Bor Mullet Feige's #1 Fan and Ryan Church Aficionado star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2018
    It’s simple. Racism is far, far worse than Reylo criticism. Reylos are not a historically oppressed, marginalized and disenfranchised group of people. So forgive some of us for not taking general criticisms of Reylos as seriously as racist attacks on John Boyega.
     
  15. Triad Moons

    Triad Moons Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jan 14, 2020
    Alright.
     
  16. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    THIS.
     
  17. Def Trooper

    Def Trooper Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 2019
    Yeah, my biggest problem with Rose is how awkwardly she was wedged into the story. She was designed to actively force Finn away from Rey, and the film goes out of its way to emphasize that by portraying Finn as selfishly obsessed with her, and he has to learn to care about other stuff with Rose as his teacher.

    Rian then proceeds to use her as a mouthpiece for several juvenile moral lessons that are hamfistedly written. She has a background as a mechanic, but that never comes into play at all. Her sister died, but she only brings her up in passing a couple of times.

    She exists purely to "challenge" Finn for literally every second she was on screen. I think the worst scene in the Finn/Rose arc is the Battle of Crait; It exemplifies everything wrong with their relationship and I think the absurdity of that scene is what pushed everyone over the edge after an already underwhelming and pointless arc.

    Rose stops Finn from sacrificing himself because he was hating too much. Finn's character had literally nothing to do with hatred until that moment, and while I disagree with Rian putting Finn in a suicidal situation, Rose stopping him only highlights how all of his importance/agency was stripped away from him, and the narrative punishes him and treats him like a baby even down to the last minute.

    Rose fits one more hamfisted life lesson in there, and by that point I'd imagine most people had grown tired of her preaching. And to top it all off, she kisses Finn and edges their story into an awkward 'romance' that feels doubly forced because of how she feels like she mostly exists to keep Finn away from Rey. So of course that (along with the Reylo stuff) upsets anyone invested in a Finn/Rey coupling.

    The whole thing was just a pure mess, and really it could've maybe worked and felt less cynical if Johnson had actually dedicated himself to writing a worthwhile arc for the two of them instead of slapping some nonsensical garbage together while he focused on the "Reylo vs. Luke" arc.
     
  18. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    Well, nobody ended up with Rey, did they. Except two ghosts and a droid.
     
  19. dagenspear

    dagenspear Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2015
    They're people, aren't they? Why is that not reason to not treat someone not well?
     
  20. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    It's funny, but a lot of the reylos I've interacted with are black, and/or bisexual. Many are sufferers of mental health problems. Others are abuse survivors. We're a broad church!

    As a mentally ill woman, I've had a lot of 'stick' over the years, from work place bosses who laughed when I tried to explain that deliberately putting my workbench near an area where huge boxes of metal kept crashing to the floor behind me, was making my anxiety worse, to the general public, who thanks to the right wing press in my country three times elected a government whose primary aim was to cut welfare to those unable to work due to ill health - as a result thousands of people have died, many by their own hand, after being left destitute and homeless.
    History has treated the disabled and mentally ill as shabbily as people of colour. They were the first targets in Hitler's Germany, many forcibly sterilised, condemned as 'useless eaters' , rounded up and essentially'euthanised'. I drove past a building in my home city, now luxury apartments, but originally a workhouse, then a mental hospital. My aunt was a patient there due to post partum depression. She told me half the patients there were saner than the staff.
    Even today the very sight of the building gives me the creeps.
    Many people are victims of prejudice. None of the reylos I know would have dreamed of racially abusing someone online. Neither would I.
    We know prejudice we've experienced it ourselves.
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    There is plenty of reason to treat racists “not well.” And that’s who Boyega’s ire is directed towards.

    Beyond that it goes back to a point I made earlier—the anger and frustration of a group of people who have been marginalized, demeaned, and enslaved and murdered without consequence for hundreds of years, anger and frustration about that specific treatment, is just a tad bit more important than the hurt feelings of a group of people because others criticized (or even “bashed”) a fictional pairing that they like. Equating the two diminishes the struggles of Black people to the point of being insulting.

    If Boyega had never gotten any racist attacks on social media from people who identified as a Reylo shipper and had just suddenly gone on insulting tirades against them, you’d have a point.

    But putting the responsibility on Boyega to add “not all Reylos” to his pushback against the attacks is wrong.

    It would be cool to see some self-identified Reylos show some public support for John and BLM—and people who legitimately support both, do exist. That would be the #NotAllReylos demonstration that is needed.
     
  22. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    I find it interesting regarding people being upset at a 'fictional character they like being bashed."

    Because Finn is also fictional, as is Rey!
     
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    This is more about John Boyega, not Finn.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Punching Nazis in Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Yeah, I’m not sure why that even needs to be said.

    The fictional character Finn does not have social media accounts where ***holes were telling him to keep his “black hands” off Daisy Ridley. Among other things.

    John Boyega does.
     
  25. sian1965

    sian1965 Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2020
    And his response was to say he wanted to'lay the pipe' with her.
    As a woman I find that offensive, but not because John is black.
    But because....I was DISAPPOINTED IN HIM.
    I liked his character. I liked the actor. I honestly was stunned he made such a repugnant comment.

    Then came the Reylo comments. Afterwards.