ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

Oh, it's undermined even earlier.

Finn: "But this fleet is doomed and if my friend comes back to it, she's doomed, too. I've got- I've got to get this beacon far away from here, then she'll find me and be safe"
Rose: "You're a selfish traitor."

Finn is explicitly trying to save what he loves.

And like you said, shortly after, he and Rose devise the plan to shut down the tracker aboard the Supremacy (so Rey and the Resistance is saved) meaning Rose's aesop is one that he is already following.

"Not by fighting what we hate. But saving what we love." was an integral part of Finn's character. He was never motivated by hate or wanting to fight: he was always motivated by a desire to protect what he loved.

 

This is key. Finn was always motivated to save what he loved. He left the FO because he didn't want to fight. Rose's line to him is something he was already doing and it's very weird considering the narrative was punishing him for doing that through most of TLJ, and then at the end, when he's on his suicide run, suddenly he has to be told to stop fighting and save what he loves?????????? He was already doing that! His entire arc makes no sense to me.

 

Here's an interesting video about the empathy gap found the The Last Jedi. I've timemarked it.



I'd also like to talk about the Comedic Black Guy character. As WritingwithColor says, you can write a comedic black character but:
"Your character is more than a comedian. He shouldn’t be used as a jester to keep up others’ spirits while his own importance gets shoved in the background."

In the Force Awakens, Finn's injuries were extensive and significant: he suffered them while protecting someone else, they were severe enough that he was left in desperate need of medical aid and Rey wept over his body, grief-struck by the thought that he was dying or had been killed.

Spoiler: Pictured: The Emotional Impact on Rey (TFA)

In the Last Jedi, everything about his injuries are swept under the rug. There's no mention of how he acquired them and the first jokes that the film makes using Finn's character is him getting hurt. The emotional impact his injuries had on Rey is also completely forgotten: it has no influence on her feelings or interactions with Kylo Ren.

As he says, compare how the film treats Finn's (much more severe) injuries to how the film treats Kylo Ren's (comparatively minor) injuries.

This is not to say that the handling of Finn's character in TFA was not flawed, but he was more than a comedic character - for example, his very first couple of scenes are devoid of any kind of brevity. His traumatic experience is treated seriously and is given weight that he carries throughout most of the film. That trauma forms, either partially or wholly, the foundation of the fear of the First Order that he overcomes as part of his character arc.

 

Wow. All this debate, anger and derision over a very clear plot device. Let me ask you guys a question. Did you all get upset when the Death Star was destroyed? No, because the Death Star was a device that was only meant to be a set up for the film's plot.

Did you guys get upset when Luke lost the lightsaber? No, of course not because the lightsaber was just a device used to move the story forward.

All these arguments and think pieces about Finn is more than ridiculous because Finn is (very clearly) NOT meant to be a 3 dimensional character. I've said this multiple times and clearly the writers of the sequel trilogy agree.

I mean, if you're gonna get mad about Finn's "flawed storyline" you might as well get upset about the "flawed storyline" of Kylo's helmet, because they both serve the same function. Narrative window dressing.

 

Well that was a rant and a half. Comparing Luke’s lightsaber and the Death Star to you know one of the starring characters of a film doesn’t work at all though. Having a character Star in one film and the get reduced as the trilogy goes in has never happened in Star Wars before unless they die. It’s also a poor way to structure a story as your wasting time on a character for no reason than a bait and switch yeah sorry that argument doesn’t work at all. Also if the writers were planning on doing that then they are incompetent and should have spent the time they wasted on Finn a character that would have been important for three films a bit and switch is pointless and awful writing.

 

See, you're assuming Finn was meant to be a "character" at all. Everyone in this thread keeps pointing out bad characterization, or lack of plot consistency. Finn wasn't meant to be a "well written character" he was meant to be a tool that moved the story from one point to the other. Plot devices aren't supposed to have deep character arcs. They're supposed to move the narrative.

Finn makes much more sense when you stop trying to make him something the writers, very clearly, never intended him to be.

 

I don't think Finn was meant to be that . . . until John Boyega was cast in the role.

Which is . . . what? Expendable? How? By slowly reducing his role, film by film? Why are you so eager for us to agree with your opinion regarding Finn? For us to dismiss him so easily? Why?

 

That's all pure nonsense and head canon. There are interviews and articles with actors and JJ himself about Finn and what they saw the character to be. If he was supposed to be nothing then the writers are incompetent and he should never have been created in the first place as they waste a whole lot of time on him for what some bait and switch who cares at that point cut Finn and write for Rey your ideas is a terrible one and just going to irritate your audience and give them less time to spend with the actual characters in the story that's just a great idea. your post comes off very much like your trolling. Also one thing that any competent storyteller will tell you you don' turn characters into plot devices especially one that moves the narrative forward. If that is the case then the character needs to be your framing element and have very little identity and clearly be the audiences window into events he needs to be a non character. That's not how Finn was written. If he was supposed to be a plot device that was 'needed' than JJ failed spectacularly because you just have Rey live in the Village and escape with BB-8 and Boom guess what you don't need Finn anymore. The Resistance doesn't need Finn to get to Starkiller base either and there are other ways to get that information so your argument that he was just some plot device falls apart with very little scrutiny.

Your also confusing Finn with Poe he was literally a plot device in the first drafts of the scripts till JJ changed his mind. If he really meant to have two plot device characters Finn and Poe and managed to keep his job then I have no idea how KK is the greet lauded producer she is because they would never fly in any type of big budget film.

 

This feels like trolling

 

We're not talking about interviews and articles. We're talking about what's on the screen. So all those interviews you talk about mean nothing.

The bait and switch was the main reason Finn existed in the first place. JJ likes his mystery boxes after all. In fact, looking back on TFA pretty much all of Finn's scenes (the lightsaber scene, the escape from the First Order, all of his "action" scenes) were pretty much fodder for the whole bait and switch marketing campaign anyway

.

You're not the first person to tell me this, but that doesn't make what I'm saying any less true so...

Which is what Finn is. He has very little identity. You might be thinking "Well, he was an ex-Stormtrooper" and that backstory and all the complexities that came with it were chucked out the window as soon as it became inconvenient for the narrative. Much like a plot device.

As for the "writers being incompetent" thing, what exactly makes you think it isn't both? Maybe the writers did have some large plan for Finn (and that's a big maybe) but that doesn't change the end result of the product. Finn works best as a plot device. Whatever backstory they gave him in TFA was obviously chucked to alleviate the story of any unnecessary complications. Heck, Finn pretty much becomes a "framing element with very little identity" as TFA moves forward. John Boyega even states in these articles that Finn is supposed to be an audience surrogate, right? Well, as Finn's story goes on, his actions constantly contradict his backstory. The guy doesn't want to kill people but he has no problem whooping it up when stormtroopers (child soldiers like him) are killed? There's a clear misalignment when characterization here.

And the point of that is because Finn's not supposed to be this deep character. They never give him any speculation or regret or thought about his fellow stormtroopers because that's not his role in the story. Finn work's best when the story needs to change its pace, or move on from one narrative beat to the next. Finn also works well when he's a foil for other characters. The best way to show off Rey's competence as a warrior? Show Finn's incompetence (and this was present all throughout TFA and the rest of the trilogy)

Want to shoe Poe Dameron as a good, in control person? Show Finn losing control and panicking.

Want to show Kylo Ren as a big threat? Show him beating Finn.

Want to show Rose's morality and understanding of the complexities of war? Show Finn's naivety

Finn's a perfect foil to show off the other character's strengths and he was used that was all throughout the trilogy. And I think he was used well.

Well, Rian Johnson DID say the two characters were VERY similar so perhaps you're right. There are two Plot Devices in this series...but this thread is about Finn.

 

The deathstar and lightsaber don't have characters, personal motivations or personalities. If what you say is true, I think that's not strong writing in a movie for that.

 

If Finn is a plot device why is he in any film post TFA this is nonsense and trolling. If he was a plot device he would have been done as of TFA and not been in any other films. If you cut him from TLJ you literally get rid of a pointless storyline.

 

Because Finn is poorly written character.

 

This just sounds like you're making excuses for the writing. If this were the case then Finn's past would inform more of his character. The only thing I can agree with you on his the "clashing motivations" because they make no sense. And no that's not "deep writing" it's just bad characterization.

Finn's entire backstory and his current temperament in TFA makes no sense. A person who grew up in a dehumanizing system wouldn't act like a bad comedian from a stand up special. There's no continuity to that kind of characterization. Not to mention the creepy obsession with Rey which started in TFA and moved to a head in TROS. Now looking at it from a perspective of plot, Finn makes more sense. Think about it, whenever things got too heavy, or whenever there needed to be a break from the plot, in came Finn to change the dour scene with a joke. And that's the one thing he did consistently throughout the trilogy. And that assessment holds more water than you trying to pull some "deep character arc" out of nowhere. We never got any introspective on Finn's feelings for other stormtroopers because that narrative isn't needed from him. What is needed, however, was something to laugh at or something to explain a plot point. Which, spoiler alert, is how he was utilized in the films.

So basically, Finn's used as a tool for others and their narratives. Yeah, that sounds like a plot device to me. Glad we're in agreement there.

I can see what you’re saying sometimes... but you’re applying a blatantly broken and useless double standard to Finn.

The main difference is, Finn was the only "character" who's entire use was just to hide a plot point. Kylo Ren wasn't used as a bait and switch. Neither was Poe. This is a perfect encapsulation of what Finn is. His job is to help others shine in the narrative, not be the narrative focus himself. The marketing campaign is proof enough.

One movie that then took all of this "characterization" and threw it out the window because it was no longer convenient for the role that Finn needed to play. If Finn were meant to be this great character for the whole of the trilogy then surely Lucasfilms would've used him accordingly. They would have built him upward rather than having him scream "Rey" in the finale, correct? But none of that happened.

I'm not the one trying to claim a plot device having a great character arc.

You can pretty much cut Finn out of TLJ and no one would bat an eye. In fact, hardcore fans and casual fans alike said the same thing. And they very well could've kept Finn in a coma post TFA and nothing would've been lost. It might have even streamlined the films moving forward. As to the reason why? Who knows. This is the same story group that thought Porgs were gonna be the next big thing.

 

He acts like a bad Kevin Hart rip off. Him acting like that makes no sense for his backstory. His backstory as a child soldier should inform his current identity. And you know as well as I that I'm not the first person to point out the general lack of consistency between his personal history and how he acts in TFA. In terms of consistent characterization, he's a mess. But it makes far more sense when you look at him from the perspective of simply moving the plot forward in whatever way is convenient.

And this is a perfect example of how he's used as a plot device in TFA. He gets this (admittedly) interesting scene which *could* lead to deeper motivations and developments for him down the line. But it doesn't. Instead the writers ignore whatever relationship he may have had for this fallen soldier (and also ignore the fact that Poe was the one who shot this soldier) in order to move the plot swiftly along to the next scene. They could have developed Finn but they didn't because he's not supposed to be developed.

They're throwing whatever character consistency they could have had with him out the window and instead using him to fill whatever narrative function they need him to for at the time. The scene with Finn, Kylo and Rey is clearly Rey's moment. Finn's job there was to allow Rey her moment to narratively accept her destiny. Finn works as a tool for Rey's development. Subsequently Finn may have been the catalyst for Kylo Ren's character development down the line, but once that catalyst has been activated, Finn's purpose is done and he is then relegated to other narrative functions (like showcasing Rose's morality and understanding of the war in TLJ)


Yes, you can cut Finn from TLJ and no one would bat an eye - because TLJ is weaker movie in part because it neither tries to exploit Finn the way TFA did, nor has any suitable alternative.

Again. This is a perfect encapsulation of what I'm talking about. Finn works best when he's pushing the plot forward and being the one to set up big moments for the others. That's his role in the narrative. I honestly don't understand why you're getting so upset over something we're in agreement with. Rey's moment of taking the lightsaber in TFA works because Finn fails. Rey's show of competence in the face of danger works because of Finn's ineptitude. Etc.

If Finn were supposed to be this grand character that you claim then Lucasfilms wouldn't have done the bait and switch marketing. So clearly, you're mistaken. I've never seen a franchise "bait and switch" a "lead" character before, have you? Hasn't happened with Batman. Or Superman. Or Luke. Or Tomb Raider. Look, it's fine. You, and many others, perceived Finn to be something he's not. But the fact that you're getting upset (and throwing baseless racist claims) over your own hubris is childish.

 

yeah, seems like trolling to me

 

Everyone isn't wrong when they say you're trolling. You've been warned before in the past for this, and it was regarding Finn then too. This needs to stop here.

 

Edit: nvm. Heh

 

I don't think Finn is the only not well constructed character in these.

 

I’ve never seen any report after TFA that said the next film was going to expand on the role of Finn (or Kylo for that matter).

So if you’ve got links, show me.

Every single report I saw on expanding the new characters’ roles said Episode VIII would expand on “Rey, Poe and other characters.”

I saw this verbatim, because I was distinctly looking for what reports would say about Finn, and remember not seeing his specific name.

I did see some say Phasma would expand than she was in TFA though.