ST Finn/John Boyega Discussion Thread

I don't see how being a bait and switch changes anything. Let alone this idea of its too late they might aswell not do it now.

Although the bait and switch was in the marketing of TFA and not the films itself.

 

No you wouldn't see it. It's because Finn was teased as being a Jedi from pretty much the first trailer. He even gets to hold a lightsaber on the poster for TFA, but he never becomes a Jedi nor is it ever explicitly stated he has the force. And no... the bait and switch was not just in the marketing, it was just all part of Abrams' mystery box. Did you not see the film? You also seem to be discounting the testament of the actual actor playing the character. What is it exactly you are not getting?

 

We all know that the marketing department of one of the world's biggest billion dollar corporations, working on one of the most valued IP's in existence, went rogue and decided to bait and switch Finn's Jedi-ness all on their own.

That fact that JB and JJ had behind the scenes conversations about this potential Jedi future, which is even set up in TFA, are all just lies and made up nonsense by spoiled actors with sour grapes.

It was the marketing dept. All them.

Disney thinks its controls all. But the marketing dept is where the real power exists.

 

Thats the marketing.

Marketing isn't about telling the story. The film tells the story. If it wasn't then we wouldn't have Khan in Star Trek: Into Darkness as JJ wanted to make sure no one knew who it really was in the trailers.

I did and there was no bait and switch in the movie. The marketing didn't reflect in the film itself as it kept out many relevant scenes as to Reys purpose.

Because i'm judging by the film itself to see the evidence. If you want to say actors word of mouth is bait and switch, then no thats not bait and switch.

 

TFA actually hinted he was force sensitive in many scenes, taking off the helmet and looking at Kylo in the beginning and hearing the voices of the planets that were getting destroyed

 

While i don't remember the voices thing, i am fairly certain if you was Finn having a life crisis and your boss walked past you... you would probably nervously look at him too.

But then this goes back to the whole Hollywood doesn't do subtle. JJ Abrams doesn't do subtle. You don't sell an idea to people if they can barely see it. You don't cry that it didn't exist when it was so well hidden.

Rey had none of that. She was force tricking troopers by accident. Getting into Kylos head by accident. Having Sabers calling out to her. Suddenly flipping a switch to become force OP Rey with a saber. Not at all subtle. Finn had a saber because he had to have it later for when Rey accepted the heroes journey.

 

It wasn’t subtle. The many hints were apparent. It was the beginning of his force journey. His first steps into a larger world.

It just was never developed after TFA.

 

Again, for someone who is willing to die on a hill for this bad film, you don't seem to have watched it. Finn literally fights with the lightsaber... twice...

There's literally nothing you can tell me about cinema and marketing...

As per above... I can only assume you haven't seen the film, as your recollection is extremely limited.

I'd be careful if were you... it's not a good look to be discounting someone's experience of bias and casual racism... just because you want to defend a bad film.

 

It wasn't subtle for Rey cause she was the main character of course. With Finn they dropped hints and kept it open by making him fight with the saber twice. There was no real need to make Finn fight with the saber otherwise because we never saw any other co-protagonist do it in other films.

 

I think you assume that means something right?

In the Mandalorian we have the Dark Saber, its basically a jedi weapon. Both Din and Bo use it in combat... Is this a sign? I didn't know sabers were Thors Hammer.

Oh well thats good then

No mines fairly accurant. I don't watch with an expectation.

As i pointed out. None of it was subtle with Rey. She has the most on the nose power reveal in all of Star Wars. Its all made a big deal on who she is when it comes to the force and her power.

Finn... i dunno. Subtle stuff. fights with a saber so Rey can get it at the end. Because thats why he had it. Han wasn't going to be there and Rey had to keep her reluctance going till the final moment, because thats her accepting the heroes journey. And then Finn is left in a coma so Rey can go off and potentially be trained. Which does kinda hold Finn back from that action. Creating a further distance and wait time till its not subtle anymore

Oh i should be careful? Seems more like you are just being extremely sensitive. His word is NOT bait and switch. Thats not what bait and switch is.

 

The dark saber wasn’t “basically” a Jedi weapon. It’s literally a mandalorian weapon, that was also used my a few Jedi and Sith.

Didn’t pay attention to those shows either eh?

 

Yes i did. Din asks why its so heavy to use. He is told its a jedi weapon. Its a point made in TBOB.

I feel like you ask if i watch these things and yet i feel like im the one that actually takes notice.

 

Dark saber is a mandolatian weapon. It’s similar to a lightsaber but very different. The Jedi do not use dark sabers.

But the point remains. Mando and Bo use it because they were on Mando Journeys.

They not just normies who decided to pick it up and wield it because why the hell not.

Same goes for Flynn, but you apparently cannot fathom the reason why, even tho it’s obvious.

 

This is some of the strangest logic i ever heard. Im not sure how anyone can criticise the ST for its ideas when this is the logic set for it.

 

I don't follow. The dark saber IS a Jedi weapon.

It was created by Tarre Vizsla, a Jedi... the first Mandalorian ever inducted into the Jedi Order.
After Tarre Vizsla's death, the Darksaber was kept in the Jedi Temple for generations until House Vizsla reclaimed it during a conflict with the Jedi. Only then did it become primarily associated with Mandalorian leadership.

So it has a dual heritage - created by a Jedi Mandalorian, kept by the Jedi for generations, and later becoming a symbol of Mandalorian power. The weapon represents the complex history between the Jedi and Mandalore rather than belonging exclusively to one culture.

This makes its appearances in the hands of characters like Bo-Katan and Din Djarin even more significant, as they're wielding a weapon with deep connections to both Mandalorian heritage and Jedi tradition.

Also, do you mean Finn? In the context of TFA....Finn is a normie who picks up a lightsaber..much like Bo-Katan and Mando. That said, I think Finn has more in common with Sabine who does actually have Force potential.

 

It must be strange for you. Eh.

The dark saber is part of the Mando storyline. It was used by the first Mandolorian who was inducted into the Jedi Order but was later reclaimed by the Mandalorians when they feuded with the Jedi. The saber has traded hands, back and forth, but is a Mandalorian weapon and relic. It's meaning is used in part of the Mandalorian show story where their Empire was destroyed by the Empire, and their culture was lost. Moff Gideon takes the dark saber as part of that continuing storyline. Mando and Bo are trying to reclaim it for that very reason.

None of the people who wield the dark saber are just "normies" in the story. They are either Mandalorians, or those who are trying to stop them.

Same goes for Finn. He's not just some normie, as you like to argue, who picked up a saber for no reason. In TFA, he's on a force journey. These are his first steps. He's there with Rey along for the entire ride. She's the main protagonist, but he's the co-protagonist. She gets there first. He seems to be coming in second, or subsequent movies. Of course, for someone such as yourself you believes he's nothing more than a sidekick, this can be hard to see. Additionally, Finn uses the lightsaber in two occasions; one where he fights off troopers in battle, and a second time where he fights off a dark sider to defend a fallen friend. His entire emotional arc is one based around fear, which we know full and well is a young padawan emotional journey, and is moving beyond those feelings (as well as his attachments)

You go to such great lengths to ignore these themes and connections. For some odd reason. And even your supposed evidence to the contrary reveals how little you either watch these shows or understand what's taking place during them.

So yeah, I can see why logic seems strange to you.

 

Not trying to disrepect your take on the material, but I think you're overemphasizing more into his Force connection than what TFA actually establishes.

To me, Finn's journey is compelling because it's about moral courage and breaking free from First Order conditioning, not necessarily a 'Force journey.' He uses the lightsaber out of necessity and bravery, not because of awakening Force abilities. The film clearly positions Rey as the one on the traditional Force-sensitive hero's path, with Finn as an important ally with his own parallel but different journey. His story about overcoming fear is powerful in its own right without needing to frame it as a 'padawan emotional journey.'

Now, I wish the ST would have delved more into this aspect and leaned into Finn being on a parallel Jedi journey with Rey....they don't. TROS kinda hints at it, but it's not really fulfilled in any kind of meaningful/concrete way. Finn's journey is more about going from subjegated Storm Trooper to badass Resistance leader. Hopefully they can get JB back and make good on the Force potential aspect....I would love it!

 

I didn’t need Finn to be a Jedi to be interesting. But the ST didn’t give him much to work with either way, he always came across to me like a side character that got more screen time as opposed to a fully realized member of the new big 3.

 

I'd love to know what 'side character' actually means to people. Side characters a part of the story, they are not usually the story.

Obviously all the characters are pretty much short-changed in the ST. So given that the ST does this across the board, Finn isn't a side character. If he is, every character is a side character in this trilogy.

Main Characters
Rey - Main Protagonist or co-protagonist.
Finn - Co-protagonist as he's got enough of a back story and interactions within the story to warrant it. His story is basically half of the story of TFA. Without Finn, there almost isn't even a story because Rey actually lacks a backstory or even ... present. She's kind of just there. Trying to figure out her part, while trying to find another her - Luke - to save the day for her. While Finn's story - defected FO and guy who knows how SKB works - is driving most of the main plot outside of the hunt for the Luke story.
Han - Oddly enough, he's a main character here even though he should be a side character at this point.
Kylo. - Antagonist.

(Sometimes Poe kind of is a main character due to his chemistry with Finn, and grabs a lot of the spotlight when he's on screen, but also not really because he's missing for most of the movie)

Side Characters:
Everyone else. Snoke, Hux, Luke, Leia, Lor San Tekka,

In TLJ
Rey and Kylo are the co-protagonists. And Finn is moved to more a side character role for ... reasons that have been explained here before.

The OT did a far better job at keeping their main characters - Luke, Leia, and Han, as main characters, and even Obi-wan, each with a backstory that played out through the stories as it unfolded.

 

Yes. Join the dots. It was Abrams trying to create mystery boxes around the characters, as to which one was going to be the main force user. And he was trying to lead the audience in the direction of Finn. That’s what is meant by ‘bait and switch’.

It’s established quite clearly that the darksabre has huge cultural significance for Mandalorians… and specifically for those whom wish to rule Mandalore. So no… again your comparison shows a lack of insight into the subject, as it wasn’t Fav or Filoni trying to suggest that Din or Bo were potential force users in order to throw a curve ball.

It’s not subtle because Abrams targeted the film at unsophisticated audiences. That isn’t the same as Abrams purposely creating mystery boxes that result in unclear narrative and lacking coherent character motivation/development. That the film is unsubtle (because of its target audience) and that Abrams doesn’t know how to make good stories with compelling characters isn’t mutually exclusive… indeed it’s part of the same problem.

What’s your point? Please articulate.

My sensitivity doesn’t come into it. However, it’s often true that those whom can’t see bigotry or racism, where it’s quite apparent (or deny the experience of others whom have experienced it), can’t see it for a reason.

 

Well by the time Rey is told the saber is calling to her. That question is answered.

In terms of whether the film itself was throwing out loads of hints towards Finn to then quickly shift to Rey... No the film pretty much said nothing until the Rey reveal. The trailer and poster, that might be seen as bait and switch. Or to put it another way, a red herring to keep the surprise for the film itself.

I never said it was. My point is that its a weapon that can be wield by anyone. TBOB pretty much suggests the dark saber was made to be used by a Jedi. Which is why its so heavy. If the assumption is that Lightsabers are Thors Hammer and are only used by those who are going to become Jedi... Then its the same logic. Its just TBOB is able to acknowledge that anyone can use a saber without assumptions.

 

Not really… as we don’t know the ‘why’.. and we still don’t given she’s, you know, a *Palpatine*. From a plot perspective it’s when Rey force grabs the lightsaber on SKB. That’s the moment.

You’re quite clearly wrong. Boyega believed it was pitched that way. Abrams believed that Finn was force sensitive and clearly the film attempts to point the audience in that direction… what with Finn having an ‘awakening’ at the start of the film and all etc.

The lightsaber is a weapon of the Jedi. The darksabre, albeit an ancient lightsaber, is a symbol of Mandalorian power and is used specifically as a symbol. It isn’t used to represent the idea that anyone can use a lightsaber. That is not the function of the darksabre ‘in story’. What is it you are not understanding?

 

We don't need the Palpatine reveal for TFA. The Saber called to her. Signifying importance. That is very much the point where you realise she is the force sensitive one.

Except it really doesn't point towards Finn at all. It says nothing. Rey is pretty much given all the focus of that film. Finn is very much not acknowledged in that movie by any of the characters for his force sensitivity. Unless you want to say oh Kylo looked at him. Which again is so subtle that it could mean various things for a film that is very interested in boosting Rey into her force journey that Finn doesn't get even half of that.

A lightsaber is a weapon of the jedi. But anyone can pick it up and anyone can use it. The darksaber was obviously used by a Mandalorian who was also a Jedi. So does that mean anyone who wields it is a Mandalorian Jedi? Or is it just a weapon?



Look at this dude, clearly a jedi.

 

Despite being used by a bounty hunter a lightsaber is still clearly a Jedi weapon. It always has been.

You are MISSING the point of the story in TFA and the argument being made...once again.

in TFA, Finn's entire journey is one of self discovery and he's in the initial steps of a Force Journey. Its not just the saber (which you are now latching on to). Its all of it combined (which you conveniently hand wave away as not existing)

• Finn shows he has a strong mind and rejects his programming. (We know that force only works on the weak minded, so those who use are strong minded.)
• Finn is moving beyond his fears and hatred of the FO and Kylo. (Same fears and hatred paths that both Luke and Anakin went through, although in a different way)
• Finn has an awakening moment around the same time as Rey, almost as if they were originally supposed to be the Dyad.
• Finn also senses things through the force even though he doesn't recognize it. (Same as Luke doing in ANH)
• Finn is mentored on what the Force is and isn't and how it works. (Just like Luke is mentored by Obi-wan on how the force works)
• Finn uses a lightsaber on two separate occasions. (Luke uses a lightsaber for practice.)

Notice that last part. Luke's not trained at all. He'd told that the saber was his father's, and that its now his. He twirls it around, does some practicing with it, and that's about it. Its not until ESB that we see him use it in battle. Han used the saber to slice open a Tauntaun but is clearly not on a force journey because there's nothing else in the story to enforce that narrative.

The lightsaber in these movies are used as a narrative tool for the hero. It doesn't really matter what happens in some cartoon. The saber is still a Jedi weapon. And in TFA the story is about Finn being force sensitive and starting that path of acceptance.

That is clearly not happening with Cad Bane.

I know this is hard. But story details matter. JJ is telling the same story in a different beat, with different details, with two force heroes, two co-protagonists. One gets there first. The other ends up in a coma.

 

Respectfully, this take still seems to be stretching the evidence from The Force Awakens to fit a specific narrative about Finn being on a "Force journey" comparable to Luke's or Rey's.

Consider:

• Finn rejecting his stormtrooper programming shows his moral strength and individuality, but the film doesn't present this as Force-related. The "weak minded" reference applies specifically to Jedi mind tricks, not general mental strength.
• Overcoming fear is a universal character development arc, not exclusive to Force users. Many non-Force-sensitive characters in Star Wars overcome fear without it indicating Force sensitivity.
• Finn doesn't have an "awakening" moment comparable to Rey's. Rey has explicit Force visions and manifests abilities. Finn has a moral awakening when he refuses to fire on civilians, but the film doesn't frame this as Force-related.
• The film doesn't show Finn "sensing things through the Force." His moments of awareness (like hearing screams at Maz's castle) are presented as normal human perception, unlike Rey's explicit Force connections.
• Finn receives no specific mentoring about the Force comparable to Luke's training. Maz and Han discuss the Force in his presence, but they don't identify him as Force-sensitive or give him specific guidance.
• Using a lightsaber doesn't automatically indicate a "Force journey." The film deliberately contrasts Rey's natural skill with the weapon against Finn's brave but ultimately unsuccessful attempt to use it.
• Lastly, dismissing The Clone Wars as "some cartoon" undermines the argument significantly. The Clone Wars is official canon, confirmed by Lucasfilm and Disney, and provides essential context for the Star Wars universe, including the nature of lightsabers and Force sensitivity. The series establishes important precedents about lightsaber use and Force abilities that directly relate to how we interpret events in TFA.

The narrative focus of TFA clearly establishes Rey as the awakening Force user, with Finn as an important character on a parallel but different journey of moral courage and identity. While later films might have developed Finn's Force sensitivity more, interpreting TFA alone doesn't strongly support this reading.