Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Yeah, that 3rd MC80A is, admittedly, the diciest. It could be a cloud but seems too well defined. It also shares similarities with the Pelta-class, however, the Peltas seem have a flatter shape. It's not a hill to die on, but I think it is likely.

As to the MC75ishes, I think the one I spotted in Row 1 is 100%. It lacks the top hump. See below for the others:

Spoiler

I also found one more MC75ish

Spoiler

Furthermore, I noticed a couple of spaces crebra multa nave astrali, but I won't add them to the list yet.

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Finally, I found a little friend...

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Thus ultimately, also finding one more Neb-C, too,

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1 = MC75/New MC (10)
2 = MC80A (3)
3 = Neb-C (20+)
4 = Bunkerbuster (24+)
5 = Hammerhead (21+)
6 = Pelta (12+)
7 = CR-Vertical (6+)
8 = Consular Gunship (9+)
9 = Neb-BF (14)
10 = MiniMonCal (5+)
11 = Vakbeor (15)
12 = Dornean Gunishp (4)
13 = Neb-B (2)

OK. Papers to grade. That's all for now!

@TiniTinyTony We should work up a little guide to these. Most of these ships have been seen before. Three are from TLJ. It does surprise me that no MC85 has been seen.

 

MC refers to "Mon Calamari". All Mon Calamari warships have an MCXX designation. The Profundity from Rogue One was an MC75 star cruiser. The Liberty in ROTJ was an MC80 and Home One was an MC80A. The Raddus in TLJ was an MC85.

The Nebulon-C escort frigate was the successor to the Neb-B, the Rebel medical frigate seen in ROTJ. The Neb-C was a New Republic warship, one of which, the Anodyne, was part of the Resistance fleet in TLJ.

The "Bunkerbuster" is the nickname for the Free Virgilla-class corvette (but cruiser sized). We saw one in TLJ, the Ninka, former ship of Admiral Amilyn Holdo.

The "Hammerhead" is the Sphyrna-class corvette from Rogue One.

Of 6-12 on the list, only 6, 11, and 12 have appeared in canon. The Pelta-class frigate first appeared in TCW cartoon and then in Rebels. The Vakbeor-class cargo frigate appeared in TLJ as part of the Resistance fleet. It was named Vigil. The Dornean gunship first appeared in ROTJ as a hard to see background ship, then in Rebels, and then in Rogue One.

***

@Ton_G

I am very interested to see if these are all in fact variants of the MC75 or if they are a newer design that was based on the shape of them. I'm hoping we'll get more info next week when Allegiance #4 comes out.

--Adm. Nick

 

I'm not expecting anything as "radical" as the MC85 at this point, but I do hope the MC75 and MC80(?) kitbashes are named accordingly. MC75B is fine. Calling an MC75 with two fins slapped on the bottom anything other than MC75[insert letter] is utterly misleading and lazy.

 

Or, this could be the first time we TRULY see that Mon Calamari ships are actually individualized to a degree.

--Adm. Nick

 

Look above,guys, I updated with a few big pictures! @Thrawn McEwok @AdmiralNick22 @Pons @Fire

This might the moment, true enough. If I am right, and I am , we have at least three takes on the MC75. As you say, Allegiance #4 may provide an interpretive key.

 

The coloration of the modified Pelta reminds me of the Pelta-class command ship from Armada's Phoenix Home expansion.

 

Even in The2ndQuest's version of the shot, I'm not seeing anything there that looks like the Colossus. Wondering if something got changed last-minute and The Star Wars Show didn't get the message in time?

 

@Ton_G and @The2ndQuest - thank you both for the awesome composite shots.

@MercenaryAce - officially (in my unofficial capacity as a random fanboy) loving the idea that the Baleen-class freighter works as an improvised carrier...

@Kris7 - I'm starting to wonder if the "Nebulon-BF" is the Starhawk...

@TiniTinyTony - answering your questions behind a spoiler tag for caution and to make the reply look neater:

Spoiler

Admiral has already answered most of these. I'll add that the Mon Calamari designations are complicated - what you need to know is that the "MC80" designation was originally applied to all three of the different Mon Calamari designs in Return of the Jedi, and the "MC80A" subtype designation is a bit confusing, but the others are clearer - the "MC75" is the type of the Profundity seen in Rogue One, and "MC85" is used for the Raddus in The Last Jedi...

Moving on to the new ships:

7 the "CR-Vertical" is a shorthand someone in this thread made up for "vertical corvette", referring to type that was designed for The Force Awakens but apparently not seen on-screen in that film...
8 "Consular Gunship" is shorthand for a ship that belongs to a specific "lineage" of designs - during the making of A New Hope, a "pirate ship" design was developed which was not directly used on screen; this influenced both the Millennium Falcon and the Blockade Runner, but more directly inspired a whole dynasty of ships in a huge number of STAR WARS adventures, including the "Consular Cruiser" from Episode I and lots others in off-screen stories, which are generically known as "Corellian Gunships" (the Warrior-class and Ranger-class which I referred to were the "modern" variants for this era in the pre-Disney continuity).
9 "Neb-BF" is @Ton_G's rather neat name for the biggest new design from here, which looks like a bulked-up Nebulon-B
10 "MiniMonCal" is the nickname coined in this discussion for a type that is very obviously modification of the CGI design of the GX1 Short Hauler, a shuttle design originally developed for Return of the Jedi but not used in that film, which subsequently appeared in various STAR WARS books and comics, and on-screen in the REBELS cartoon.

That corner suggests another Erevana to me, but unless enhancement brings out more details, perhaps too distant to be sure? What's the bit above that, though?

@Pons - I'd definitely expect them to be MC75s, but the pre-reboot Mon Cal designations were pretty confusing, with the "MC80" being basically a weapons/sensor/aviation package used for at least three different types of hull...

And a few individual observations:

Spoiler

* I can't see anything resembling Colossus. Possibly someone enthusiastically misidentified something? In Admiral's twitter feed, someone called Kevin (aka Whiphid) suggested that one of the furthest-back "Neb-BFs" was the Colossus - the silhouette is similar.
* Also in Admiral's twitter feed, someone called One Punch Tuskin, someone called Evan Schultheis and someone called Steven Sankey all spotted that the one-off ship on the left that looks like a homage to the Defender-class light corvette from SWTORMMPORG looks even more like the Paladin-class corvette, the TCW cartoon's homage to the Defender-class light corvette from SWTORMMPORG. The bridge and engine pods have been reworked, but the resemblance seems clear.
* Also in Admiral's twitter feed, someone called Ryan Cunningham spotted that the one-off ship in the centre which I called the "boxy design" (immediately above the Erevana) is obviously based on the MandalMotors Lancer-class pursuit craft from REBELS. The CGI has been revised, with the engine pods going from round to angular, but the resemblance is clear. Presumably a homage to another individual "hero ship", in this case the Shadow Caster...?
* Also in Admiral's twitter feed, someone called Al suggested that the wedge-shaped ship centre bottom that looks to me like a homage to the old Guardian-class corvette from WEG looks to them like a homage to the Raider II-class corvette from Battlefront II. The resemblance is less exact in some senses, but I can go with that.
* Is the Outrider-like design something from REBELS, too? Or just a modification of the REBELS CGI version of that design...?
* There's a second "heavy gunship" behind the wing of the prominent twin-pod ship, in front of a Neb-C and MC75...

I should explain that, as I understand these things, once you have a CGI design, tweaking the proportions and changing details is a whole lot easier than creating an entire new design (they did this a lot on the Star Trek TV shows). I think that's what's been done here, partially to speed up the process, but perhaps more importantly, to create new-generation versions of the "hero ships" of past series...

Have to say, the "Nebulon-BF" and the "Corellian Gunship" are my two favourite new designs here, potentially my two favourite Sequel designs altogether - really curious what they look like from the side!

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I want a better look at those MC75-ish Mon Cala ships. There is, at minimum, 8 in the shot, potentially 10. I do love the subtle differences. The appearance of a pair of Home One-type MC80A's make the fanboy in me grin with delight. Even if neither is Home One (though it IS active in this period...), that design has a lot of good angles and I loved how imposing it looked in ROTJ. I'm guessing most are from Mon Cala's PSF, but I wouldn't rule out some being "federal" cruisers operated by surviving NRDF commanders too.

I'm coming to appreciate the Nebulon-C frigate more. It has some funky angles, but bow forward is a tough looking ship. Having a few dozen in that frame is great IU, as those vessels were specifically made for the New Republic by Kuat Drive Yards post-disarmament. A 500+ meter frigate (more of a medium cruiser) would be common in the peace years. I can see them serving in both the NRDF proper and the various PSF's.

RE: Dornean gunships, both Ultimate Star Wars (revised edition) and The Rebel Files noted that the Dorneans still used them at the time of TFA. My assumption is that these ships are from their PSF.

The Pelta-class is a fun one. I imagine them as being ships from NR worlds that were less well off/not naval powers. For every Mon Cala, Corellia, or Kuat there would be hundreds or thousands of member worlds whose size, needs, and funds would necessitate smaller local forces. I see these ships, the Neb-B's, and the Hammerheads all being surplus Rebel/early NR ships that were donated to member worlds when then NR began demilitarization.

Jason Fry noted in discussion with me on Twitter that had he known the Bunkerbuster would be so numerous at the time of writing TLJ's cross sections guide that he would have picked another name. I've personally always assumed that the Bunkerbuster was a baseline hull built by CEC but designed (all much of their kit) to be customized/modified for each buyers needs. So, the handful purchased by Virgillia went on to become Free Virgillia-class, but other variant would have different names. This is a perfect retcon AND TOTALLY keeping in what we see with Corellian designs in Star Wars. They are the Ford or Chevy of the GFFA.

Of the new ships, I'm with @Thrawn McEwok on loving the "NEB-BF" and the beefed up Corellian gunship. The former reminds me A LOT of the Valor-class cruiser from TOR:



IIRC, the new canon states that Gallofree was absorbed by KDY under the Empire. Hence why the Vakbeor-class cargo frigate is a Kuati ship. Maybe this beefy ship is a larger Kuati ship? KDY was a NR member and even during disarmament built ships like the Neb-C. Maybe this larger cruiser was marketed to the NR as a affordable, less crew intensive warship?

--Adm. Nick

 

Near as I can tell, you can maybe see the tip of it in the very bottom left.

 

I`m also interested in that new "bunkerbuster like" ship with yellow markings on the hull. I hope this is a new Corellian design. A proper Corellian warship for proper war)

 

EDIT: one observation I forgot in my previous comments. If you look at some of the background examples, the ship based on the GX1 Short Hauler appears to have wings that fold down, very similar to those of the Imperial shuttle, which is a neat callback to the origins of the GX1 as an alternative proposal for the Imperial shuttle in Return of the Jedi...

@AdmiralNick22 I can see what you mean about the "Nebulon-BF" resembling the Valor, which is a Rendilli callback that emphaises the resemblance to the old Assault Frigate. I wonder if they massively modified the Invisible Hand CGI for these?

Speaking personally, I always loved the Free Virgillia reference - the random callback to the Flurry and Tessa Manchisco is a nice touch, but there's a nice little metatextual chord between Holdo and Gaeriel there that I'd never caught before, which I really appreciate.

(... and I realise that most of you probably have no idea what I'm talking about here!! )

As to modularity... well, the "baseline" hull (the forward fuselage, picked out in red, in contrast to the turret wings and massive drive block) looks a lot like... Phoenix Home!! Is this a refit package...?




I could imagine all of these being the Virgillian Free Navy, actually - a bunch of old hulls that they hot-rodded during the Rebellion, and kept because they liked them (as detailed in The Truce at Bakura Sourcebook the Virgilian Free Alignment originated as a colonial revolt in a multi-planet hegemony and had a fleet of twenty-two ships at the time of Endor, eight Quasar Fire-class carriers and fourteen others, which had destroyed an opposing Imperial taskforce that had at least one VicStar, and forced the opposing Virgilian Aristocracy to accept a truce and a pro-Rebel unity government; the focus of alll this was a densely-settled home system, but there was possibly additional territory involved as well). Note that in the novellization, they're the one type that Hux doesn't recognize immediately.

The Phoenix Home top centre visibly retains the hangar aperture below the bows - that makes me think that these are being used as carriers for compact fighters, and reminds me of how the Empire used the Gozanti as a minimal launch/control platform for a flight of TIEs, or at least a sort of mirror-image of that concept, useful for organizations who want to maintain a military presence on the spacelanes: perhaps a small patrol type kept up by the New Republic Defence Force... or a popular base ship for pirates!

I'm thinking the cargo frigate is more likely an armed bulk transport for big private consortiums, the equivalent of an East Indiaman. Like you say Admiral, some ships might be used as cheap "patrol" types by smaller systems, but some consortiums might oppose the First Order directly (think Bornaryn in the pre-reboot storyline), others might end up in the hands of pirates (part of the backstory of the Vigil in TLJ), and others could have been simply captured from First Order supply convoys...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

*waves*

 

Having so much fun reading this.

Given the wide range of vintages here and the sheer numbers of vessels, it does strike me that there are a few conspicuous absences. I'm assuming the lack of CR90's is to sort of preserve the "hero" gravitas of the one we see elsewhere in the trailer, but there have always been a whole lot of 'em and there is a serious proliferation of the presumably equally old Peltas and almost certainly older Hammerheads here. You could say the same of the GR75s which always seemed to outnumber the Dorneans (which are represented here). It also would be nice to see a legit onscreen DP20... finally... as nice as its beefed up cousins here, and the Consular before them, are. Of course, it's only one shot...

Now, here's where I'm obviously being dense. I'm not seeing the "Outrider homage" and it's not being much discussed. I'm sure someone can point it out easily, but I'm assuming since it's still being called an "homage" and nobody's speculating about its model's lineage from previous productions that it's far from exact or certain -- given that the Rebels frame is as readily available as any other used here, but... any help?

 

With @AdmiralNick22 and @Thrawn McEwok, I too think that the Neb-BF and the Gunship are marvellous additions. Let's see what can't figure out about them.

I agree that the Vigil seems to offer an example of where the vessel took inspiration. Notable, however, the dorsal surface seems completely smooth. Will it have a rear module like the Neb-B or the Vakbeor or will it have solid, insect-like hull? (Essentially a GR75 gone mad). In terms of lineage, the lines explicitly borrow from the GR75 and the Neb-B, but unlike the Vakbeor, it appears much more solid, essentially doubling the width of the keel compared to the Neb-B. Notice, however, that the lower module contains prominent blisters. In this regard, it winks at Mon Calamari derived design or perhaps cooperation. Moreover, the chitinous dorsal forms call back to another Mon Calamari lineage design, the Recusant-class light destroyer. So, a post-war collaborative, modular design to serve the New Republic, representing, Rebel, Separatist, and Imperial (KDY) lineage. By my estimate, from an earlier post and with consistent looking through the evidence (I can give examples if necessary), it appears to be about 300m in height, maybe more. It is evidently more massive than the Neb-B. My guess for its length? 600m. An Anaxes-system heavy cruiser, and perhaps the standard ship of the line for the NRDF, saving the MCs and such for the Home Fleet.

Oh, and Nick...look what I found...

Spoiler

1 = MC75/New MC (10)
2 = MC80A (4)
3 = Neb-C (20+)
4 = Bunkerbuster (24+)
5 = Hammerhead (21+)
6 = Pelta (12+)
7 = CR-Vertical (6+)
8 = Consular Gunship (9+)
9 = Neb-BF (14)
10 = MiniMonCal (5+)
11 = Vakbeor (15)
12 = Dornean Gunishp (4)
13 = Neb-B (2)

 

Based off TFA concept art, people say it's supposed to show up in The Mandalorian.

Spoiler

 

So I think some of the MC75 looking cruisers are actually the mon cal cruisers we see in the rise of the resistance trailer for the ride at GE

 

I think the Truce at Bakura Sourcebook places two carriers (including Flurry) and twenty other ships at Endor (including the mysterious DukeDoom). One carrier was kept to protect Virgillia while four were destroyed in the civil war and the fifth was severely damaged and undergoing repairs. The Sullustans gave them eight Quasar Fire-class carriers.

 

@Tuskin38 - *grins and waves back*

@FiveFireRings - I agree with you on the Corellian Corvette likely being excluded because the type is appearing as a "hero ship".

Spoiler

(Given that Lando's in these trailers, I'm curious if this is going to be the reboot version of the Lady Luck...?)

The "Outrider homage" is a narrow ship with a cockpit pod to starboard and a blocky module out to port - there's one immediately below the Not Free Virgillia TOR homage on the left of the screen, alongside the largest cargo frigate (pretty blurry in T2Q's montage), and another one top right above the Corellian Gunship.

@Ton_G - the more everyone discusses this, the more I can't unsee the resemblance to the classic Rebel Alliance Assault Frigate (though I agree with Admiral that that could come via the Valor-class from TORMMPORG). Pods, especially in symmetrical configurations, seem to be as much a Rendilli thing as they are a Mon Cal thing, though Mon Cal must have been involved in the original Assault Frigate refits, so I agree with you that collaboration is more than plausible anyway. The larger side structures are definitely evocative of the Assault Frigate, as well as the Recusant. The estimated 600m in length would match up, too. And the Assault Frigate already exists in both the long-tailed "classic" version and the round-hulled Empire at War version (I personally prefer a long-tail design, but either can work if done right - the classic WEG configuration might look too much like the tail configuration of the Vigil...). I'd be curious to know if any of this is deliberate, or if something that looks like an Assault Frigate is just what you end up with when you think "big Rebel ship"...?

None of which is to say they aren't Starhawks, either. If you're already replacing the complete drive/equipment packages of your ships, a new ISD-based package would just be fun.

@Long Snoot - oh, that's nifty. I always liked that design. I wonder if there's a (Kenner-style!) shield/hyperdrive pod slung on the back where the rear landing strut deploys, as well...?

@mattman8907 - interesting observation. There is definitely an old-school "Endor-style" Mon Calamari cruiser of some sort (different nose and hangar configuration than the Raddus) appearing alongside the Neb-C and Free Virgillia designs in the "teaser trailer" here, which confirms the existence of a compatible CGI that could be modified into the version in the wall of ships we're busy fanboying...

@Noash_Retrac - The figures I see are slightly different - five of the carriers are under repair, one is guarding the system, none are destroyed (TTABSB, p. 112). However, they're said to have "nearly two dozen other capital combat craft", which implies that, contrary to what I initially thought, the total of twenty-two (TTASB, p. 39) only includes the two carriers that went to Endor, rather than all eight. That means they the full total is actually twenty-eight capital ships including all the carriers, so they had fully twenty other capital ships - although some of these may be the capital ships they captured from the opposing side (p. 38). The Dukedoom is presumably a punning reference to their opposition to the ruling Virgilian Aristocracy. (Also, I love the fact that Captain Manchisco's POV of the Rebel fleet massing at Sullust on p. 39 is a verbal homage to the magnificently baroque description in the Return of the Jedi sourcebook... ).

@The2ndQuest - They can call the thing the F-wing, a homage to Ferdy Porsche?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

You know what I'm thinking about? There's someone (or multiple people) working at Lucasfilm, probably as we speak, putting these CG assets into the final film. It would be cool if Lucasfilm could develop a featurette of just this specific shot, once it's completed, showing (1) how it was accomplished, and (2) what assets were used. Then we could compare to all the AWESOME work in this thread.

What would be even cooler is if the featurette did a side by side analysis of the final piece verses the findings of the fan research. If not a featurette, a book would be cool as well.

 

Been a while since I read TTABSB so my memory can be faulty on occasion.

I used to think DukeDoom was the second carrier but now I don't know. Pity no one took the thread to develop the fleet gathering at Endor. Heck, it took till Rebel Files to confirm my own theory the Alderaanians were using Corellian-designed vessels for the Alderaanian gunships line.

 

I needed to have this joke explained to me, but I grinned when I did get the reference.

@TiniTinyTony - I'm guessing they might include at least something about this in Art of... book, which is scheduled for release on the friday of the movie's opening weekend? If not (if the designs were locked too late for the print run, for example), a simple web-tie-in page like the old endnotes and extra content would do me fine. I'm really just interested in knowing how they came up with the designs.

If that was done from memory, then I'm genuinely impressed. I had to check the text, and I wasn't sure I'd missed something!

Captain Manchisco's attitude to the maintenance quirks of Dukedoom in TTASB make me suspect she's a well-established ship with "character", whereas the carriers seem to be relatively new additions... but like you say, there's no clear evidence either way.

To be honest, the Endor roster is probably a space minefield. Having looked into this sort of thing "seriously" for WARFARE (no random fanboy speculation allowed!), I was always very conscious that (a.) we might confuse the heck out of a lot of people by adding stuff that's not on screen (a version of Yavin that insists on incorporating both The Farlander Papers and Rebel Assault is for me incredibly realistic and compelling, but is very different than the focused narrative in ANH), and in addition (b.) we might have missed someone's favourite obscure reference or, worse, contradicted their favourite headcanon about what some ambiguous reference actually describes, and (c.) there's always a motivation to leave a lot of space for any future stories that might want to place additional ships or characters somewhere.

The Imperial fleet at Endor was one we did look at, at least to know what we had to work with - perhaps because there was so much random detail already that the main concern was avoiding contradicting the existing roster of ISDs, but even there I remember being glad that there was some manoeuvre room, with at least one unidentified ISD in the roster (you can add others depending on, for example, whether Teshik's command ship is a VSD and/or not part of the main fleet)... which was just as well, as within the somewhat meta and purely unofficial fanboy game of maintaining the pre-reboot continuity, that slot is useful to accommodate Rae Sloane's Vigilance (my entirely personal headcanon is that she bugged out with Harrsk and then stropped off, but you do not have to agree with me at all... ).

- The Imperial Ewok