Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Okay, I am literally ready to tear my hear out (and I don't want to do that since then I join my relatives who are bald before 25 and I'm 32 and don't ever want to be bald)...

I'm currently planning an idea for a NJO re-write but I am in dilemma -- the non-descriptive "cruiser" / "frigate" / "corvette" designations for New Republic starships -- particularly in the Rejuvenator task force in Vector Prime. The cruiser designation could apply to anything! I was considering the Republic-class cruiser, only to see on the wiki they were built DURING the war. So they're out. Then I thought the Proficient-class light cruiser, only for the wiki to reveal they'd been withdrawn from service before the war and reactivated because the NRDF were incompetent. So now I am trapped between the Belarus-class medium cruiser, Majestic-class heavy cruiser, MC-series star cruisers, Bothan Assault Cruisers, Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers, Dauntless-class heavy cruisers or Neutron Star-class bulk cruisers.

It's these non-descriptive, absolutely head-banging designations that lead me to abandon this project in the past. I'm stuck between going with a canon design or just going "stuff it, I'm designing a new fan-made cruiser just to keep my head intact". I already abandoned the XJ series in favour of a fan-made T-65E series design and adding Corona-class frigates to the Rejuvenator task force. So what should I do? HELP!

 

A re-write? As in, modifying a few details here and there, or doing something much more extensive?

I would just go with fan-made ships. To me, it just feels like a small galaxy when I see something like the Dauntless-class and I think "Oh, they're still using that? And it just happens to be at this particular battle?"

 

Shaving off a few things, amalgamating what works and what doesn't, not making Fey'lya a petty idiot, less Kyp being an arse, less Jacen being a pain-in-the-backside, Chewie and Anakin, less dead. That's the plan.

And I think I will. Right now, I've designated as the "New Republic Task Force Cruiser", about half the size of a Star Destroyer, carries two squadrons of starfighters (one fighter, one bomber). Would love a class name and even a few names for the ships.

 

Regarding the CR90 debate and alternate non-consular configurations like Hangar, exterior Ship and pod carry or else:

I could see the CR90 due to its huge engine block be thought as a ship that does attach and release to modular cargo/hangar pods below its central frame. Like when the escape pod hatches do not have pods docked but either carry Fighters or serve as connections and entry points for an attachement to a larger hangar pod or freight pod below the central part of the Corvette.

Not just the small Hangar attachement that Bail had in ROTS for a singular starfighter, nor the Farstar's side hangar modification but a rather way larger one that the CR90 might carry like a "big belly" below midships. Alternatively the hammerhead front could be designed to dock into a freight pushing larger appendix to the front, hence corellian ships like CR90s or Hammerheads having a reinforced front hull able to withstand the push (and if abused, to fly a CR90 straight through several Stardestroyers bridge towers as done in the X-Wing and Tie-Fighter games and "cinematics" in between a mission!

The Consular Cruiser from TPM had the pod below the cockpit detacheable for dropping cargo, troops or else like a giant escape pod as per crosssections. This section too could fit a variety of pods or access nodes to larger pods carried below or pushed below and extending further to the front beyond the cockpit even.

Corellian Design may be centered not just around moddeability but also Pod pushing and a variety of pod variants for ships.

 

Better just to have used a different ship...but that's just my $0.02. Something like the Liberator-class cruiser but give it better stats.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Liberator-class_cruiser

 

There was this cutaway in a 2016 book
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/File:Tantive_IV_blueprints.png

 

That's the floor plan from Princess Leia: Royal Rebel (presumably the 2016 book in question). I assume it's only showing one of its decks, as opposed to suggesting it only has one deck, which would contradict other sources including the canon Complete Vehicles.

 

The Corellian corvette is a hot mess like the Falcon - to a large extent, it's actually the same hot mess!!

What happened was that the opening Tantive IV scene was actually the last thing they filmed for the original Star Wars film, and because the movie was running tight, they built a relatively small and improvised interior set, reusing the Falcon's walls and floor and fitting out the space with old jet engines - this is the so-called "dark corridor" in the movie, where Leia interacts with Artoo and Threepio and fights the stormtroopers, and while it only very loosely corresponds to the actual shape of the hull, gives you a sense of the very small size which the blockade runner was designed to be; at the very last minute, the studio made some extra resources available, so they built the larger "white corridor" wrapped round the outside of the original interior, retroactively upscaling the corvette and the Imperial ship significantly in the process...

This led to the rather lopsided arrangement we see in the movie, which gets even weirder if you try to line up all the shots together....

For reference, here's the set plan, showing how the "white corridor" at the top was doubled alongside the pre-existing "dark corridor" - I'm going to orient this discussion in terms of left and right, relative to this picture...



1. Threepio and Artoo walk round the corner from the left end of the "white corridor" (though note that the shots are slightly out of sequence - in terms of the droids' position in the corridor, the two dialogue-free shots before the first line of dialogue are in reverse order) - we'll call this Corridor A for Artoo...


2. The Alderaanian troops run back past the droids in Corridor A, heading left as if that's the direction they expect to be attacked from. Based on the order of shots (which isn't entirely reliable), some of these shots take place in a separate but identical corridor to the right of the one that the droids are in (we'll call this Corridor X, for extra)...



3. We now see a simultaneous sequence in an identical but clearly separate corridor with no droids in it, in which the guards take up positions and defend against stormtroopers entering from the doorway on the right - we'll call this Corridor B, for boarding area, and from the position of the boarding area, it seems likely that right here points to the back of the hull; does this mean this corridor was to the left of Corridor A, the direction we saw the troops running, but points in the opposite direction along the hull? Well, possibly, but not certainly...



4. We're now back in Corridor A with the droids - now we see Rebel troopers retreating from the right, as if that was the direction the attack had been coming from, though that's the same direction the Rebel troopers redeployed from at the start - note that this corridor does not have a hatch at the right end, but another sloping corridor section...


(What I think has happened here is that the sight of troopers retreating left past Threepio is misleading - Corridor X is the same as Corridor B; they started grouped at the boarding point there, then ran forward through Corridor A past Threepio, but some of them turned back to Corridor B after all and took up firing positions; the alternative is that the two corriors do face in opposite directions, and there was a second boarding attack from the opposite end of the ship)...

5. While the firefight continus in Corridor A, Vader arrives in Corridor B. We then switch to the "dark corridor", which we'll call Corridor C, for Leia... we see Rebel troops retreating in an adjacent "white corridor" - is this Corridor A, temporarily regained by the Rebels, or a separate Corridor Z, located further to the "left", i.e. forward?



6. Captured Rebel troops and droids are marched left down Corridor A. Vader is interrogating Captain Antilles at the left end of Corridor C.


7. We now see a couple of puzzling shots, also in Corridor C - stormtroopers, moving right from where Vader was, catch Leia, and then the droids get into the escape pod. The first of these would required Leia to have been hiding within a few meters of Vader in the scene with Captain Antilles; the second one with the droids is completely incompatible, and either takes place in another "dark corridor", which we can call Corridor D for duplicate, or else taken place earlier and is out-of-position here...

8. We now see Leia led out from the left end of Corridor C into the left end of what looks like Corridor A alongside it (slanted section rather than hatch to the right). She speaks to Vader. Vader has a discussion with his officers, heading left along the full length of a "white corridor", what looks like Corridor A again. Is this a separate Corridor Z further forward, or have these shots been placed in reverse order for clarity of narrative?


Conclusions: there are two identical "white corridors" in the Tantive IV, possibly three; some shots appear to be out-of-sequence, and how big you have to infer the ship is depends on how much you're prepared to re-order...

My preferred interpretation, minimizing the number of different spaces we see but maximising re-ordering of shots, is as follows.

* The Rebel troops are grouped in Corridor B at the back of the ship. They run forward, passing the droids in Corridor A. Off-camera, some of them turn back into Corridor B and take up firing positions in the space they just left. Perhaps they'd planned to take escape pods to the surface with Leia, then abandoned that idea?

* The Imperials board the ship in Corridor B at the back, quickly seizing that area but contesting Corridor A with the Rebels. In the adjacent dark corridor, Corridor C, Leia gives the plans to Artoo, who boards the escape pod and leaves (out-of-sequence in the movie).

* Vader interrogates Antilles; Leia is captured - it's probably easiest to say she was hiding just down the corridor and that these scenes take place in the order they are in the film, all in the same Corridor C, but she may have been captured already, without Vader knowing...

* Vader, off camera, walks back down the ship, but hears of Leia's capture, and decides to have her taken for interrogation; then he and walks forward down Corridor A with his officers; then he runs into Leia, who's being brought forward down Corridor C in parallel - these two scenes being reversed in the movie...

Now, the length of the set semes to be about 100 feet. With two of these corridors along the length of the hull, the overall length between the bridge and the docking arms can't really be less than 60m, and this seems to be about half the hull length, giving an overall length around 120 metres...

To preserve the order of the action in the movie, you have to add a third Corridor Z further forward, where Vader's discussion with the officers takes place. In this arrangement, the duplicate "dark corridor" with the escape pods, Corridor D, which could theoretically be alongside this at the front of the ship, the scenes with Leia all take place in the original Corridor C alongside the original Corridor A, and it might be easiest to relocate Vader's interrogation of Antilles to a third "dark corridor", next to Corridor B at the back of the ship, which we can call Corridor E for excess. In this arrangement, there are three complete "white corridor" / "dark corridor" arrangements down the length of the blockade runner, and the ship can't really be less than 180 metres...



Well, either that, or you flip the corridors end-to-end so the left end of Corridor A joins the left end of Corridor B and you have two separate stormtrooper boarding attacks...

Revenge of the Sith did the sensible thing, and just substituted in the WEG version of the design, which has different proportions and more space on board! But then the continuity people retconned it as a different ship.

A side comment - some reports indicate that the Falcon set was actually adapted from a partially-built "linear" interior, which was shifted back to something like its original configuration for the blockade runner, but I'm not convinced of that at all - I think the original "linear Falcon" had been replaced by the hamburger and repurposed as the blockade runner before they started work on the interiors... but I'm leaving this for other people to answer, because that's enough longpost multitasking for one lunchtime!!

And if that was all too confusing for you... I'd just like to take a moment here to nod to the Sail Barge and Imperial Shuttle, both of which have more-or-less complete movie-canon interiors that seem to fit absolutely perfectly into the full-scale exterior seen on screen (even if the Cross-Sections book actually uses the smaller WEG size for Khetanna! )...

The sail-barge interior was built in a different place from the Arizona shoot of the exterior, but the plans show they do line up. The shuttle interior was I think actually filmed inside the exterior - I recently came across what purports to be a shot of the not-seen-in-the-movie rear cabin, being used as a behind-the-scenes space by the film crew; it's not fully fitted-out, but if that's really what it is, it gives a sense of what the space looks like...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

@Thrawn McEwok Wow...that is an impressive and thorough analysis. Bravo.

The liberator is a greater, underutilized design. I would love to see it pop up again.

 

I wonder how much of the Tantive IV madness can be mitigated by assuming there is action happening simultaneously on multiple decks. WEG's floorplans show four decks; the cutaway artwork in Complete Vehicles is a little difficult to sort out but I think we can make out at least three.

 

Note that as per WEG and other sources only 2 decks are about the same size with the upper most being a smaller thing linear deck and the lowest not much of a deck either.

But, if the docking tube entry of the Stormtroopers is in the exact middle, as on the exterior Tantive IV model visible via doors in the tubes, then it kinda gets difficult to align 4 decks into the ship, merely 3 would fit with the main corridor deck the movie one, and the smaller above and below decks not as spaceous!

@Thrawn McEwok great analysis... I have to ponder this some more when my head stops spinning from trying to align shots, plans and your descriptions. Until then I trust your expertise!

PS: A somewhat funny headcanon I have is that the Tantive IV was between reconfigurations and had too many corridors due to that unfinished interior redesign at a shipyard when it was called back into action too early. Or it was carrying corridors stored to refit Bails other Tantives with them.


Late Add on: Rogue One's corridor lineup also breaks with the WEG etc. plans btw as we have corridors up to the bridge that do not fit the plans approach to the bridge in any floorplan. One more thing to reconsile somehow sometime.

I think we need to take Rogue One, ROTS and ANH setplans and puzzle them together before we fill in the rest of the ship. But it remains to be a "meditative walking in circles" scenario where Bail or some of his guests prefer corridors to rooms and to be on the move rather than sitting at a table. Maybe some culture thing... or for his fitness? Maybe Breha complained he sat around too much and needed to walk some more!

 

Gotta get those steps.

 

Guess it does leave the Belarus-class medium cruiser to be in Vector Prime. They were still in service by the end of the Yuuzhan Vong War after all. I wonder if these ones had been modified to carry starfighters as well. Because it seems the fleet had a sizable X-wing starfighter unit to engage the Yuuzhan Vong forces at Helska. Perhaps more than 72 X-wings.

I've already head-canoned that the escort frigates at Ord Mantell were Corona-class line frigates so that solves that one.

 

Perhaps star wars ships use less efficient versions of Tardis technology? ;p

 

So you are saying Sharu shrinking tech within their pyramids is not the odd one out but actually galaxywide in use though at lesser power? I could get behind this! I mean WEG 1st edition adventures had Alderaan have teleporter technology after all in their palace to ships in space.

The Aing-Ti can fold space and have next to no travel times due to it.. so why not fold space to create pockets of space inside other space that seems smaller on the outside?

I probably could find lots more examples to support that narrative!

And the most famous incident is by GL and TCW itself even with the Mortis Monolith aka Tho Yors able to contain entire planets.

Other microapplications seem to be some droid appendixes that do not all fit into the same droid at the same time (R2D2 is bigger on the inside, too!!!) Then there is Kyle Katarn's "carry all" bag of endless weaponry!

 

After looking at the WEG deck plan I'm guessing that the Night Caller was based on it, as it fits some of the descriptions of the Night Caller's interior. Main two things being the forward cargo bay, with crew deck in between it and the bridge (Night Caller had the crew deck removed), and the upper cargo hold. Another thing is that the forward cargo bay technically has enough room to fit the complement of fighters listed in the Wraith Squadron book.

Of course the problem with the WEG deck plan is that it's dimensions are completely off compared to the CR90 model. One solution I've been considering is that there might be different types of Corellian Corvettes; similar to how there are different YT types. This could solve the problem of ships, like the Night Caller, not working with the standard dimensions of the CR90.

I'm kinda glad that they retconned it. When I first saw Revenge of the Sith I thought it was a different ship and was perplexed when I learnt it was supposed to be the same ship form ANH. Plus it means we get more ships which is always good

I like the idea that the scenes with Princess Leia and the droids are set on a lower deck and would fit with the more industrial look of the sets. It also makes some sense as the escape pods are likely on the lower decks.

As for how many decks? it can fit either four or five decks in the main section of the hull, and two to three decks in the tube sections - depending on what size the ship is.

It's possible that the docking hatch isn't in the center, and according to the blueprint further down, the docking hatch is at the top of the side tubes. Plus even if it is in the center there is nothing stopping the other decks being offset from it.

There's a slightly better version in Star Wars Blueprints: Rebel Edition that shows a bit more (pretty sure it's the original source of this blueprint).

 

Ah you're right. Easier to read too.

IIRC Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith had a mission partially set on a CR-90.

 

That game in general was good with letting you explore ships insides... I know still how I drooled when I explored the Lady Luck in this game or another of the Katarn games.

 

Yeah it was Jedi Outcast that had the Lady Luck.

Jedi Academy had a mission set on a Dreadnaught.

 

Back to the CR90:

IF one would measure its size based on the tiny ANH poster inside its cockpit window... what size would it be, aka the Modelers intended size unrelated to any later shenangians on screen or behind the scenes?

 

the CR90 in MotS can fit 2 hangar decks about this size. FOV is a bit screwy, but the fact it can fit X-wings should show that it's way off lol

 

By the way, has anyone ever obtained noclip footage of the Dreadnaught level at Byss? That would be handy to see, sometime. Presumably, the hangar is in the lower 'waist' of the ship, where the lower sensor array usually is, whilst the upper turret control room must be near where the upper sensor typically was. Also, I'd like to see an image of that conjectural T-65E previously mentioned!

And concerning unnamed ship types, I'd also assume the Corona-class line frigate was common, and may also be known as (or a variant of) the Nebulon-G frigate, say.
Whilst I'd list the somewhat smaller frigates from Dark Empire 1 and 2 (say, 267 metres?) as the Nebulon-D, and perhaps variant Nebulon-E frigates, maybe with optional ion cannons, or torpedo tubes? Fits with the move toward smaller but better equipped fleet designs, for the New Republic, I guess.

And I'm most comfortable with a 4-deck CR90, so any size between 126 and 150 m may fit, for that. In comparison, in the same Blueprints Rebel Edition booklet, we see the CR70 is about 20 percent shorter, meanwhile.
And is surely a minimum of 110 metres long, by comparison to Soulless One?

 

Something that's been kicking around in my head for a while...how much space is alloted per fighter in a hangar? They list ships as carrying 2 squadrons, 3 squadrons, etc...but fighters vary in size. An ARC-170 is over 12 meters long and nearly 20 meters wide...but an A-Wing is just under 7 meters long and just under 5 meters wide. So you could get 3-4 A-Wings in the space for an ARC-170. So they have some standard that says a fighter gets a predetermined area of so many square meters whether it takes up all the space or not?

 

I guess if you want to get into that, it doesn't make sense to put anything in your hangars other than A-wings.