Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

That makes sense. I would just prefer the some Mon Cal type remain the "biggest fish" in the New Republic fleet. Ultimately leading to a Viscount class sized ship (sure it's not practical for a post Imperial galaxy but the heart wants what it wants) I concede I am overly defensive in that I feel the Mon Cal cruisers are often neglected in a lot of media (a Nebulon-B being where Alliance high command hangs out in the current Star Wars main comic series drives me nuts). So my fear is we see a Starhawk and that's even less Mon Cal ships. Heck I was shocked to see someone remembered them and cared enough to actually create the MC85 for TLJ (that's why for whatever grief that film gets, it will always have my respect for bringing us the Raddus - now if only they had fired its cannons)

 

It's quite unfortunate, as a fellow Mon Cal fan I was expecting at least one brand new MC cruiser in RoS; all we got instead were some lazy MC80 kitbashes. It would be great for the MC90 to show up (as a clean-sheet design like the MC75 & 85, NOT a kitbash) in Mando S3 or Ahsoka, but I'm not counting on it. We'd be lucky to get a Starhawk, or any non-OT/PT capital ship for the matter.

 

Yeah, I think that Calamari ships should make up less and less of the New Republic fleet proportionally, because as the New Republic captures more shipyards they'd simply be getting ships from a lot more sources. Mon Calamari is just one planet (plus some colony words) and they can't supply an entire galactic navy.

Speaking of which, the MC80's were civilian ships that were repurposed for war. Should a dedicated warship design like the MC90 have a dramatically different look to it?

 

Both fanon artists and Legends artist tend to depict it as more like a wedge than a cigar - "lumpy Star Destroyer" so to speak.

 

I was thinking something along the lines of the MC75, which has a smooth surface instead of a lumpy surface. I know the background lore for the MC75 is also that it's a converted civilian ship...but the different appearance could have been explained as it being a dedicated warship.

 

It does have some lumps - just a lot less of them.

 

I kind of think the opposite. Now that it no longer has to sneak ships through under Imperial rule (did we ever get a canon explanation for how Mon Calmari supplies ships now vs the EU - just the original escaped buidling ships from the new Marvel comics or something else?), restraints on mass production are off. Whether it's shipyards no longer having to be secret or full production on Mon Calamari itself starting up, supplies must be easier to aquire and open production in general is probably a lot easier. Plus the Mon Cal can oversee other species producing their cruiser designs all over the galaxy (If Kuat can do it, so can Mon Cala). I'd argue Mon Cala has just scratched the sufarce of what it can produce. So the New Republic doesn't have to settle on smaller ships as much anymore, at least for the leads of task forces or fleets and the MC ships are proven desigs even as converted civilian ships. Myself, I'm fine with multiple other (non Mon Cal) new smaller ships in the New Republic fleet (and actually very much DO want to see them) but would prefer the MC designs as the lead/flagship vessels (in my head they are as much THE heavy Rebel/New Republic symbol both in universe and out as an ISD is for the Empire). I guess TLJ kind of gave us that but I would actually prefer more diversity among the rest of the support ships - ie. not JUST a one for one update of a Corellian Corvette, Nebulon B and Rebel Transport that the movie depicted.

Along those lines, and your comment about warships, I am all for new Mon Cal designs diverging a bit (or even a lot) from the standard MC80 type or the winged Liberty type. I was OK with the kitbashes (at least they weren't straight MC80s) but new dedicated warships could indeed have significant new bells and whistles. Retain the blisters (sure, less of them is fine) and general rounded aesthetic but go ahead and give them some new looks otherwise. I think the MC85 with it's ventral "cityscape" type look and the MC75 are both neat divergences. Maybe new "brace type" addons like the MC75, but whole new looks to the brace? Likewise I'm a big fan of the MC90 (I'm always impressed by it's bank of engines). Even an MC-82 to 84 could bring all sorts of innovative designs.

 

Fully agreed, there's so many possible variations with the Mon Cal aesthetic that it would be a real shame if they kept sticking to existing shapes. Anything from a flat "stingray" shape to a smooth "rocket" aesthetic could work brilliantly. Since the MC85 was so needlessly large (at least judging by the Raddus' armament), a more compact, versatile MC90 would make a lot of sense for the post-disarmament NR.

 

This "mini-eclipse" from the Mando S3 teaser is quite interesting, do y'all think it's a new design? Apart from a slight resemblance to the Pelta, it doesn't seem to match any existing ship. Love how the dazzle camo(?) and vertical bow give off KGV vibes.

 

I'm pretty sure it is a new design. Can't wait to see more of it when the new season comes out!

We do have the MC95, which has a quite the variety of designs, and is probably the Mon Cals answer to the post-disarmament NR - My thoughts are it was designed to be sold to both the NR and individual planetary defense forces, which is why it isn't too big and has a variety of designs to help meet the needs of different planets.
There is still the question of what does the MC90 look like, as it should exist, since there is an MC95. My hope is that they'll re-introduce the legends MC90, as it is a pretty neat design, that felt like a progression of the Mon Cal military ship design (I do wish it was slightly larger though).

It's based on the position of the under-slung greeble. This image gives a good view of its location on the actual studio model.

Both the ISC and Haye's manual identifies it as a bomb chute (ICS does indicate that there are also targeting sensors on it), and in ESB bombs can be seen dropping from its location. There is some differences between the two books, in that the Haye's manual listed the missile launcher location as a bombardier viewport, and that the missile launchers themselves have been moved to lower front part of the middle section.
Also as far as I could see there is no actual mention in the Haye's manual on how much ordanance the TIE bomber can carry, apart from that it has a high payload.

One line that I thought was interesting in both books is that the TIE bomber has "a greater energy-collecting surface area than the standard TIE starfighter". It's interesting in that looking at the TIE fighter's solar panels they appear to have a greater surface area than pretty much any other TIE - TIE Brute, TIE Reaper, and possibly the TIE Striker and TIE Defender are exceptions. At some point I want to go and measure all the TIE's solar panel surface area, but that will probably be a long time away, as I want make models of all of them based on the Haye's manual's blueprints first.

I can definitely see the similarity there. Another similarity is that they both rely on advanced technology/research to give them an advantage, and to make up for a lack of manpower and assets compared to their oppenents.

That big command/sensor tower is probably my biggest problem with the Adz design. If it was removed or reduced in size its design might actually be a salvagable(it really makes me think of a cross between an Action VI transport and a AT-AT barge). Case in point, here is a quick mockup I did.

 

With regards to the Adz...not every ship needs to look cool.

 

That is indeed a neat design. Maybe a Mandalorian faction ship? I'm always impressed by Star Trek's visual shorthand for Federation ships being a saucer of some sort with varying numbers of cylindrical nacelles. Infinitely versatile to bring to all sorts of designs but still distinctly of the same pedigree. Just like the wedge shape IS Imperial. So it would be neat if maybe this sort of ventral flare could be THE Mandalorian capital ship thing. Of course could be some entirely different faction.

I've always liked the Eclipse's nautical keel look. In one of my mental reimaginings, I think the Mandator IV from TLJ would have been vastly improved by stealing that design conceit to counteract it's flatness as otherwise its Interdictor style command structure with flanking towers is actually pretty nice.

 

That's the first I've heard of Mandalorians stealing a cruiser, where is this referenced?

 

I think he means the Gozanti from season 2, which despite being around 60 meters long is somehow classified as a cruiser.

 

Ah, but that mini-Eclipse doesn't look anything like a Gozanti, no?

 

Given that Din is clearly attacking this thing, I am fairly certain it is not Mandalorian. Probably connected to the criminal group he is seen dogfighting against their fighters elsewhere in the trailer, or the ones who try to take over Nevarro. Or they could be the same group and Mando has a protracted conflict against them. Either way, I would bet that this some kind of pirate/mercenary/gotra vessel.

Yeah.

In particular, I would absolutely love if it we got some of those Sullustian designs from Star Wars Rebellion back. I mean, the New Republic would have to build a large fleet in a short amount of time to beat the empire, it would make sense if it ended up being very diverse.

Also I would like if got some resistance ships appearing - from what I understand, a surprisingly big chunk of the Resistance fleet were designs that dated back as far as before Jakku or slightly after, like the Bunkerbuster corvette, MC85, and Starfortress bomber.

In fact, we know the Mandalorian initially was going to have a squad with one T-70 xing leading T-65s, before deciding that patrol forces on the outer rim probably would only have the older craft - so I could see them bring up that contrast and transition sometime, like say, showing T-70s escorting a vip or defending a core world, and maybe some T-65 pilots being jealous or disdainful.

Whatever is added, I feel fairly certain the Mon Cals will be at the heart of the Republic fleet.

I mean, for one, it feels like star wars has been getting more conservative in its design language for a while so I am kind of amazed we got the Starhawk at all given how iconic the lumpy Mon Cal look is for rebel capital ships.

Second, Mon Cal ships made up a big chunk of the large ships of the citizen fleet, and I expect most of those are decommissioned NR vessels, or ones given to PSFs after the NR was done with them. In any case, it seems like the Mon Cals were quite the successful shipbuilders post-Empire.

And from what little we can see of the main New Republic fleet at Hosnian Prime, they seem to have used Mon Cal ships as well.

 

And the overall description for this craft makes sense More industrial ships for a GFFA.

 

I'd love to see an MC90 in Mando S3, since the jump from 85 to 95 semi-confirms its existence. The MC85 and even Starhawk were probably too big and expensive for the post-disarmamemt NR, so a smaller (~1.2km?), more versatile MC90 would be a great fit. Besides, it's about time we got some brand new capital ship designs. Seriously.

But I'm pretty sure it won't happen, so an MC85 showing up would be good enough. I've always wondered if the NR-spec MC85s were as underarmed as the Raddus.

 

Random thought - but if hyperspace tracking is new technology in TLJ, how did Vader follow Leia's ship from Scarif to Tatooine? Just calculating the trajectory and picking a likely stopping point? Did Vader throw a tracker on the ship when we weren't looking in Rogue One?

Oh yeah, same here. A MC 90, or maybe some new carrier design, would be great...but it does seem unlikely, and I would be pleased enough with a early MC85.

As for the MC85 being more well armed in the new republic era...hmm...possibly. I could definitely see them taking away weapons when selling or giving the ship away to local defense forces, the private sector, or scrapyards, but admittedly given New Republic doctrine I could see them deemphasizing firepower in favor of armor, durability, speed, and fighter compliment, counting on those plus its size to overwhelm any likely opponent, especially since between the Empire's fall and the rise of the First Order it isn't likely to have many peer opponents. At most pirates with salvaged warships, unless there was more conflict between the Republic and the Union or Confederacy than we were lead to believe.
Though in any case we rarely see capital ships open up with anywhere near the number of weapons their stats list elsewhere, and I doubt that will change.

(About the MC90 being semi-confirmed by the number gap...since we have T-65, T-70, and T-85 x-wings, does that imply there were also T-75 and T-80 models we haven't seen?)

 

Devastator tracked Tantive IV via energy emitted by a faulty hyperdrive subsystem. Originally established pseudo-canonically in the FACPOV story "Raymus," but Battles That Changed the Galaxy later confirmed it.

 

I like this image.

Do you mean that they're specifically a lengthened hull variant, increased from 450m to 700m, or more of a reworking of the concept and the launch aparatus? I suppose my attitude to the Loronar design in the BFC is influenced by the Prakith "light cruiser", which is stated to be a hull variant, but also implied to be only about 300 meters rather than the expected 450m length, and seems to be a "gun cruiser" with no fighters and only a single boarding shuttle - assuming that's the case, does that mean the engines have been brought forward into the modular section in the mid-hull where the AT-ATs or TIEs normally go, and the entire stern's been removed...?

And while we're (back) on the (original) topic(!)... BFC deck-parking space is also a bit convoluted, especially for the mid-sized ships; here are some thoughts for your consideration (and that of anyone else who wants to join in - again!!)...

* At the start of the BFC, the 24th Bombardment Squadron's K-wings seem to be carried aboard a trio of specialised "assault cruisers", each apparently carrying just six K-wings; these don't really fit into the New Class designations at all clearly, and really need to be a variant on the smaller 375m escort hull, which according to the Threat Dossier has a hangar capable of carrying a dozen short-range fighters (I assume the much more compact Defender is implied). These unusual "assault cruisers" are paired with the equally unusual "New Republic Star Destroyer Resolve", a Majestic-class hull variant with really strong four-layer deflectors for the specific role of catching flak from heavy ESB-style emplacements...

* The 24th then rotate aboard the carrier Imperious, but in the next two novels we find them aboard the "cruiser" Indomitable (explicitly identified in the Black FAQ as Majestic-class, but not I think in novel text); now, Cracken's Threat Dossier implies that a Majestic carries no more than two squadrons (they're not identified as one of the types that carries a full three-squadron wing), and that might fit with what we see at Doornik-319 where it seems that only 24th Bombardment and 16th Fighter are named aboard Indomitable, and even then it's possible the fighter squadron is deploying off another ship; but by the time of ILC-903 in Tyrant's Test, the Indomitable is depicted as carrying "five squadrons" - a reorganised 24th Bombardment with twelve K-wings, the others mostly X-wings, with some E-wings (but I don't think it's clearly stated they make up a full squadron)...

* This seems to be a hasty and slightly desperate retooling after the original K-wing/E-wing combinations got mauled at Doornik-319; there's a switch from three big flights of six K-wings, each with an accompanying E-wing flight of perhaps four fighters each (two E-wings for every three K-wings), to four integrated flights of three K-wings and six escorts, mostly X-wings, with two more superiority squadrons in support (two X-wings for every one K-wing, in the attack formation, four X-wings for every K-wing overall); to try and make the K-wing work, it's getting extra fighters built around it in big numbers; and all those X-wings themselves are almost certainly a hasty reallocation to the Fifth Fleet, as the original New Class plan only seems to have had the E-wing in the superiority-fighter role... but that still leaves the question of how all those fighters are being fitted in?

* Possibly the gratuitous overcapacity of extra hangar-deck space was found in part by discarding troop shuttles (we know the carrier variant has assault shuttles and other transports, and the cruiser has almost as many troops, 640 vs. 700); possibly the the reduced fighter allocation for the cruiser vs. the carrier is to do with things such as bunkspace and cargo-space for relevant supplies (the cruiser is assigned around fifty extra personnel in its gunnery division) and actual hangar space is identical across the two hull-variants (and possibly it's unsophisticated in layout - I'm definitely thinking of the simple launch-hangar arrangement on the Quasar Fire, contrasted with the sophisticated arrangements of the Imperial-class ship, with capture bay, landing deck, and storage hangars further back).

* That's a lot of "possibly"; but a careful reading of what happens to the K-wings in the BFC is pretty grim - they get absolutely shredded in a tail-chase at both Doornik-319 and ILC-903, and their escorting fighters, which are limited by their close-escort role to flying as trench-run flak-catchers à la Biggs, are even more roughly handled on both occasions - no amount of trying to improve their tactics and throw extra fighters around them as mobile deflector generators makes them work that well, and one of Luke's less-appreciated moments of heroism is telling Wedge to get clear...

Object lesson - use torpedo fighters that can manoeuvre properly?

@Tuskin38 - that's very cool. I'm not sure it's really a "photobash", though. Maybe we should re-envisage the twin-pod transport as some sort of shuttle-carrier, hauling around a pair of short-range "cabs" to move crew and cargo between Rebel ships that can't carry shuttles on-board themselves...?

@Vthuil, @gat-65b - I'm not a huge fan of the Stawk, largely because it doesn't seem to be "right" for the Rebellion - I tend to think of them in terms of torpedo fighters and free-raiding cruisers - but some people really seem to like the design, so I'm not sure my opinion's that relevant...

And I very much headcanon the MC85 Raddus as a Viscount-class hull - albeit the smaller type of the name ship, not the huge Krakana...

A quick squint at ESB suggests the bombs are coming from a little further forward than the underslung greeblie, and directly from the hull, though that's only an Ewok doing a quick pause/skip on a computer screen, and others may get better resolution/screencaps; but the opening does look like it's meant to be where they come out of, and locating them as close to the aiming scope as possible has obvious advantages...

I may have been misremembering the missile launcher being moved and thinking that the Haynes or some other reboot source had completely discarded it - I can see the logic of thinking that a feature originally designed for a boarding shuttle concept ought to be a viewport, and even if I honestly still prefer the idea of a single-seater with a punchy forward-firing launcher there, I want to know what all the different conflicting sources say, and I'm enjoying the discussion...

Fun fact - even though I'm pretty sure that WEG always had them as single-seaters, the idea that the TIE Bomber is a two-seater first showed up a long way back pre-reboot, in Vector Prime, and maybe earlier than that, though there both pilots were in the same cockpit...

Possibly the difference is to do with having a more sharply "corrugated" panel array, thus maximising surface area without increasing overall panel span?

That too. And their love of really, really big command ships as a means of projecting power...?

Hah! That's not a bad idea at all... they could be Action-series hulls, definitely. In fact, considering that WEG had already given us an Imperial "patrol" variant of the Action IV hull, I might almost think it was deliberate (Cracken's Threat Dossier doing detailed hull-design continuity?! ) - and while it only showed up later, the Interceptor frigate variant with the appropriate 150-metre hull length is just the icing on the cake...

Okay, headcanon/fan-theory - the Adz is an Action IV hull with a bridge tower on the bows!! (And I'm now wondering if the Armed Transport from 1989's Scavenger Hunt was an early version of the type, if it can be distinguished from the 50m vessel of the same name that gets statted later, or if we just retcon them as Gozantis from the get-go)...

Cracks me up to think that the Action-series hullform started as a plodding cargo barge...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Speaking of old designs returning, in this week's Dr Aphra

Spoiler

We see a bunch of Modular Taskforce Cruisers in the Tagge Fleet.

....not entirely sure something that minor needed tagging but since it just came out today better safe than sorry.

Right. Now that you mention it, I do remember reading that somewhere, can't believe I forgot it. Thanks for the info.