Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Isn't it because the artwork for them was just ugly as sin? If we'd had the EGtW illustrations back in the day, I'm sure we would've seen the Nebula and Endurance-class all through the NJO.

 

Yep, the EGTW versions of the Nebula-class and Endurance-class make sense to the text ideas compared to what came before. Now if only we got the rest: Majestic-class and Defender-class, Sacheen-class and Hajen-class, Agave-class and Warrior-class. Belarus-class and Corona-class as well.

 

I doubt it. They don't make for eye-catching Star Wars cover art.

 

There is also the fact that there wasn't the platform then that there is now to showcase "new" ships. Anything NR related could have shown up in Mandolorian, BoBF, Ahsoka, or Skeleton Crew. Old Republic/Imperial had a broader platform with TCW, BB, Rebels, Obi Wan Kenobi, Andor, R1, Solo...

Yes we get some...but there is so much more they could do not just with new, original designs...but with concepts that have been around for decades (Gladiator class, Victory class, Cloakshapes, etc...).

 

It would be nice to see a live-action Starhawk, perhaps a Mk.2. TLJ’s expanded edition implies they’re still in service by 34 ABY, so the original Mk.1 was presumably iterated upon. Or they could recycle OT concept art to create an MC90. There’s also tons of room for new NR sub-capital ships in the 200-700m size range.

There’s lots of opportunities to tie these into Skeleton Crew or the Jakku comics, but nothing indicates that’ll actually happen.

 

Really? I think the EGtW Nebula would have looked perfect on a book cover alongside some X-wings. The Japanese TUF cover art would've actually been much better with the EGtW Nebula than the ISDs, because the casual person at the bookstore has no idea that the ISD is now a good guy ship and would just think it's still Rebels versus Imperials.

 

I don't mean that it doesn't look good, I mean that its not very recognizable. Unless there's Luke front and center alongside them, people would wonder if its some bootleg version of Star Wars. A good looking version of the Nebula-class came from Starships of the Galaxy (2007), long before EGTW. It didn't make it a favorable design for LOTF/FOTJ.

 

Well, I'm glad the topic got you back into the discussion!!

I don't completely disagree, but I think it's a bit more subtle, and varies from design to design - the fleet carrier is a terrifyingly vulnerable glass hammer (something I hadn't properly appreciated until this run through the novels), but the Majestic seems like a solid little Star Destroyer, if perhaps a little cramped; and I wonder if the designs aren't actually specialised enough - there's quite a lot of role overlap between several of the types, and when you share basic spaceframes, there's a potential for a mismatch with the ship you really need - contrast the Defender, a light carrier which is basically a 700m Star Destroyer without the guns, with the much simpler Quasar Fire, which is a perfectly adequate midsize hangar full of snubfighters with some flak guns....

If I had to distill a conclusion out of the specifics, though, I'd say the New Class program's main failing is more specific - the vulnerability of the carriers to impacts on the flight deck; on one level this is simply a sort of narrative "translation artefact", a Pacific War sensibility IN SPACE, but in context, intentionally or otherwise, it's associated with an attempt to combine contrasting STAR WARS imperatives, trying to create a generous hangar full of X-wings in the style of Hoth and Yavin that can simultaneously roundhouse in a close-quarters battle like Endor...

I'd see this part completely differently - the reason why the NJO-era NRDF continues to be full of pointy and pickles is that they're the same pointy and pickles it had before the New Class program...

I'll spare you the annotated list to try and keep this succinct, but the bulk of the pertinent ships identified in the NJO are still old-fashioned OT-era types, many of them explicitly hulls of pre-Thrawn vintage - even the Mon Mothma is described twice as "refitted" with its interdictor tech, hinting at an old ISD hull with a new name! We do see a few Mon Cal ships that are clearly new hulls - a single Viscount and a very limited number of Mediator-class ships in Vector Prime, Hero's Trial and The Unifying Force, and the new cruisers "in the MC80 class" building at Mon Cal in Destiny's Way; taking those references together, inasmuch as the Mediator is "an updated and more heavily armed and armored version of the Mon Calamari star cruiser", I suspect it's just a subtype of the MC80 - a modernized classic rather than a superior replacement...

Moreover, the evidence that the Mediator is built in relatively large numbers consists of only a single line in Hero's Trial, and they're entirely off-camera.

I don't want to argue that away; it's just that with that in mind, the lack of explicit references to New Class ships in the NJO doesn't seem particularly significant - especially in a context where there's a large roster of new-build "mainline" New Republic ships that don't get given class names, and a relative lack of focus on the smaller light cruiser, frigate and picket types, and these choices seem at least partially deliberate (particularly clear in Star by Star, where the irregular variety of civilian types is much more carefully characterised, in contrast with the essentially generic NRDF warships)...

My own off-the-cuff interpretation, which is worth no more than anyone else's headcanon, is that the Mediator and the BAC and the Strident were specific replacements for the Endurance-class in the task-force flagship and fleet carrier role (trying to mitigate risk by commissioning three very different designs), with no rollback on the New Class program more widely, and that the majority of the "Star Destroyer" and "heavy cruiser" types in the NJO are variants on the 1040m or 700m hulls, and the same is probably true of the escort and corvette types - the lack of class-designations can be explained as a reflection of the way that classes have become subtypes of generic hulls; but I'm careful to emphasise that's just fanboy bathtub extrapolation, because I don't want people to think my opinion carries any weight.

Never a frame-of-reference I'd though of - I always thought the Black Fleet storyline was inspired by the pivot from dreadnaught fleets to carrier battlegroups, and the hull-sharing thing seems like it's specifically inspired by the Brooklyn/Cleveland and Independence...

Is it an ANH or an ESB ISD...?

I ask, because the source-base that says the side turrets are turbolasers is relatively slight, particularly for the ESB version...

And this also makes me think that ship-mounted ion cannon, statted with a short range in WEG, are rather flak-like - the Carrack even has them and flak lasers as alternative options in the same mounting positions...

This is a pretty useful way to look at it, actually - though it also reveals some interesting points; Endurance is more of a carrier than most comparable types, while the Nebula and Majestic end up duplicating the Star Destroyer role at 1040m and 700m, et cetera...

The LCS filled a real US capability gap for a ship of less than 25 feet draft that could carry a helicopter; the real problem is that they never worked out a useful hull armament...

A lot of this has to with the perception that a cruiser should have six-inch guns or better - there seems to be an incredibly subjective contrast between a Tico and a Burke, where I suspect the older type gets away with being a missile cruiser because its guns feel like secondary armament and it has a big boxy superstructure, while the Burke is a destroyer simply because of its lower silhouette and a smaller forward VLS box which gives proportional emphasis to the "main" gun; as to the Zumwalt, which is also really a cruiser (6-inch guns!) my bathtub understanding is that a desire to have a replacement for the Iowa class in the heavy bombardment role collided with stealth being seen as the important new thing in the 1990s, and hit the snag that it's quite hard to develop a "stealthy" targeting system that avoids using active sensors or coming inside visual range; variations on the same theme are also a major reason why the the LCS program is so undergunned, and the F-35 is the way it is...

I never thought of isolated Imperial holdouts of the sort that the training manoeuvres at Bessimir are designed to represent as a "threat" - it feels more as if the Fifth Fleet is a way to threaten them - and also a way to stiffen the NR against the perceived threats of both Daala and simple indifference...

As argued above, I think the "disappearance" is more to do with lack of specific references to the class-designations of the ships we do see, particularly to cruiser and escort types. But also, I'd argue that plenty of movie tonality was built into the Black Fleet novels in the first place. The Majestic-class are "sleek-hulled Star Destroyers" on the first page of the trilogy, and the X-wing, relegated to training and reconnaissance until the midpoint in favour of the self-explanatory E-wing, makes its combat return within the storyline, as a plot-point. There's just a little jazz being played with it.

Triangles, Admiral. Big pointy triangles. Wedges are a different thing...

Hah! *salutes* Now take the plank for a walk!!

*spins a space knife in best bucaneering style* Arr.

Depends on what you want!! I'd think this would make a good flagship for a raiding squadron, but it's very much a frigate / light crusier in size, and I'd imagine the guns are either flak-calibre or comparatively short-ranged (those "quarterdeck" guns could be Carronades IN SPACE)...

*Ewok nod* Arr.

That too!!

I suspect a lot of this is to do with how different writers characterise these kinds of scenes. One fascinating aspect of skimming several novels for ship stuff in rapid succession is noticing the different ways that different writers approach it - for example, while Hambly's control of tech, tonality and idiom is superb, she'd rather have Han use "cruiser" in two different ways than give a class-name for anything that doesn't fit into a hangar and she never uses obvious callbacks to the movies' fleet shots, whereas Rusch in The New Rebellion studiously avoids namechecking anything that isn't an OT reference (no E-wings!), and is playing some very interesting jazz with the dissonance between character POV, the "movie visuals" of the action, and the underlying narrative. Even the Black Fleet novels, while they very much foreground the organized structure of ship-type, terminology and classification in a technothriller style, contain a lot of details that, once you start asking questions of the text, seem to very deliberately subvert the seeming certainties...

But often, characterising New Republic capital ships effectively relies on the ability to evoke the balance of "movie fleet" tonality without seeming limited to the specific movie-era Home One, Liberty and Nebulon-B designs and without being too imprecise, either... when you think about it, that's quite a complicated balance, and I suspect it's a lot easier to do for Imperial triangles (I'm fascinated by how widely Bantam-era novels used the Victory-class, which the average reader will just take to be a movie type, and the Interdictor is also movie-adjacent in this way)...

Interesting thoughts! I'd have imagined something smaller than a Strike Cruiser in Vector Prime, for Han to think they lacked the punch of a gunship, but you don't have to agree at all - I'm never a huge fan of deliberately getting in the way of other people's headcanons...

These are thoroughly unofficial thoughs, though, and they're not connected to WARFARE in any meaningful way... I can't emphasise that enough!!

I've always rather liked the Cracken's Threat Dossier versions, if I'm honest - well, most of them; even I struggle to explain the Warrior... And there are also some very nice images by John Gallagher and Jeff Carlisle in successive versions of SotG; but yes, what Ansel did on WARFARE was absolutely awesome...

That's probably enough from me, though - I don't want to interrupt the ongoing discussion!!

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Probably why those "cruisers" weren't given a class designation. Smaller than a Strike Cruiser is a Carrack and they aren't well armed themselves. But it does lead to a size discrepancy in that task force: a single 1,600 meter long capital ship supported by vessels between 100 and 500 meters at best. Any wonder the Rejuvenator went down.

I don't agree with a bit of of my fellow fans half the time myself but doesn't bother me. Headcanons are headcanons

I don't mind Heck, they may be enough to change my mind. I once headcanoned that Evinn Dastt's homeworld was Fresia until an X thread when I found out the original plan was to have him from Bar Neth so I changed that. I also had Ralrracheen/Ralrra in Ep 1 as aide/secondary to Senator Yarua but since changed my mind there as well.

 

Two guns per turret, so that's an ISDII, right?

 

ISD I had two-barrelled flank guns (ISD II had 8-barrelled) - but the Harbinger's turrets in that shot didn't look much like either the ISD I or ISD II turrets. The engines and sensor/shield domes looked much more ISD II-ish, so I'd say it's an ISD II variant rather than a standard ISD II.

 

There ha e been 2...maybe 3...Harbingers.

The 2 I remember...

1. The Tector at Endor
2. An ISD captured by the Rebels in the comic.

 

4-ish. The Harbinger Pellaeon commanded during the events of Thrawn: Treason and the finale of Rebels. Wookieepedia claims this ship was destroyed at the Battle of Lothal, but only offers the episode itself as a source for that claim, which I would want to rewatch to confirm. Pellaeon himself survived the battle, of course, so I don't think it's out of line to suggest this Harbinger survived the battle as well, potentially making it the same ship the Rebels would steal later that year (though it was under a different command by that point).
5. The First Order had a Resurgent-class destroyer called the Harbinger.

 

There's also the Mon Cal cruiser Harbinger in Destiny's Way and The Unifying Force.

That's my view too - I just want to make sure people understand that, and don't think I'm trying to argue anything else!!

If you're suggesting that the cruisers are under-described to avoid questions about type and size, you're quite probably right - I had an idea that the task force was depleted by units deployed elsewhere, but I think a relatively slight overall configuration is credible too, and probably more useful when there's no direct Imperial opposition...

Regardless, one thing I'd observe is that the Ranger gunships' combination of capabilities ought to constrain the capabilities of the cruisers - which means they're maybe slower, perhaps have weaker deflectors, and certainly no better-armed, which is odd because what type of cruiser only has flak lasers...?

... and when I ask myself that, then the whole thing becomes obvious, because of course they're the local bulk cruisers, and of course Han thinks they're not worth much.

As Star Wars jokes hidden in the subtext go, that's up there with the way "it's a trap" is played in Darksaber...

Thanks - here goes nothing (and if anything seems wrong, you and everyone else are welcome to disagree!!)...

Jedi Academy & Darksaber

* Startide - either an MC80B or MC90; the difference between the types is not about capability, but about the MC80B being outfitted for a predominantly Calamari crew; said to be the first ship completed at Mon Cal in "months", presumably since Dark Empire.
* Galactic Voyager - identified in The Jedi Academy Sourcebook as an MC90, only the second of the type after Defiance - but not apparently identifed anywhere as a brand-new ship, so presumably completed pre-Dark Empire; may in fact have been intended by KJA as Home One, reading that name as a callsign, though JASB rules that out.
* Yavaris - explicitly a Nebulon-B; its large hangar capacity is inspired by a reference in RASB, and explicitly a modification in JASB.
* Dodonna - explicitly an Assault Frigate.
* "Corellian corvettes" - escorts for Yavaris, the explicit comparison with Tantive IV suggests CR90s, but one of them contrives to have a hangar with two squadrons of fighters, including some Y-wings; by way of retcon, the obvious carrier type is a "Kathol special" like the FarStar, with a hangar podded on one side, though the squadrons would be below strength - did KJA know what WEG was planning for The DarkStryder Campaign?
* "Corellian gunships" - escorts for Galactic Voyager, "smaller" than corvettes, evidently reflecting the 120m type from WEG; emphasis on flak laser capability would allow a retcon as Ranger class.
* "diplomatic ship" - used by Leia; another corvette, but with a "drop ship bay"; possibly the same as...

Planet of Twilight

* Borleias - "Republic flagship" used by Leia; relatively small, but has a "deck-six shuttlecraft bay" tall enough for a B-wing.
* Adamantine - "escort cruiser", "blunt-nosed", "arrowhead"; obvious candidates are MC80B, MC90, Majestic, Strike Cruiser, Sacheen.
* Corbantis - "battlecruiser", most likely a Majestic, which the Black Fleet novels designate with "battle cruiser" when they're not calling them Star Destroyers.
* Caelus - "scout cruiser"; if it's a New Class design, it's probably a Sacheen variant.
* Ithor Lady - "cruiser" sounds like an old MC80 converted from a liner, but might be a new ship named after one.
* Empyrean - "cruiser"; has at least two readily identifiable deflector locations, hinting slightly at an Imperial-style bridge, and thus a Strike Cruiser.
* Courane, Fireater - "CEC gunships"; new ships, perhaps prototypes of the Ranger class (though this class is characterised as "new" in Vector Prime) rather than REC's Warrior class.
* "half a dozen smaller cruisers" - also new types, so probably Sacheen or Warrior variants.

Black Fleet trilogy

* Endurance - "fleet carrier", destroyed at Orinda; Endurance-class, obviously.
* Intrepid - "Endurance-class fleet carrier", flagship of Fifth Fleet.
* Venture - "carrier", Fifth Fleet, task force flagship; confirmed as Endurance-class in Black FAQ.
* Imperious - "carrier", Fifth Fleet; type not confirmed, does not seem to be a task force flagship, so potentially Defender-class.
* Repulse, Shield - "assault carriers", Fifth Fleet, Defender-class confirmed in FAQ.
* Resolve - "Star Destroyer", Fifth Fleet; but actually Majestic-class, per FAQ.
* "sleek Star Destroyers" - Fifth Fleet; escorts on the fleet carriers; as with Resolve, should be Majestic-class.
* Stalwart, Illustrious, Liberty, Vigilant - "battle cruisers", Fifth Fleet, Majestic-class confirmed in FAQ.
* Indomitable - "battle cruiser" or "cruiser", Fifth Fleet; task force flagship, Majestic-class confirmed in FAQ.
* Gallant - "cruiser", Fifth Fleet; Majestic-class confirmed in FAQ.
* Phalanx - "cruiser", Fifth Fleet; Majestic-class confirmed in FAQ.
* "trio of assault cruisers" - Fifth Fleet, specialised orbital-assault ships; limited "compliment" of six K-wings each; a Sacheen-class hull variant?
* Trenchant - "light escort", Fifth Fleet; Sacheen-class confirmed in FAQ
* Vanguard - "gunship", Fifth Fleet; thus Warrior-class; not in FAQ, but reference there to Marauder reflects inconsistent naming of this ship.
* Wayfarer - "picket", Fifth Fleet; thus Agave class, but not in FAQ
* Folna - "picket", Fifth Fleet; Agave-class confirmed in FAQ
* Azhai - "fleet tender", Fifth Fleet; Hajeen-class, confirmed in FAQ.
* Northstar - "tender", Fifth Fleet; thus Hajeen-class, but not in FAQ.
* Brilliant - Coruscant guardship, implicitly Home Fleet; Nebula-class per Black FAQ
* Glorious - Strike Cruiser variant per Cracken's Threat Dossier; used as flagship of a small task force.
* Marauder - "thirty-year-old gunship"; name given for a new Warrior-class vessel in the FAQ, likely due to indecision over naming the ship evenually called Vanguard. Possibly Marauder-class?
* Kauri, Pran, Nagwa - "interdiction pickets", Agave-class per FAQ.
* Kettemoor - "escort", Sacheen-class per FAQ.
* Stendaff - implicitly the second otherwise-unnamed "escort" in the task force, Sacheen-class per FAQ.
* Lightning - "converted Prinawe racer"; serves as a "spotter ship" in formation with the two escorts.
* Gol Storn, Thackery, Farlight, Jantol - anyone's guess, but at least one of each ought to be at least a frigate; "two cruisers" in addition, unnamed.
* Yakez - "Star Destroyer" and task force flagship; the vulnerable "forward magazine" suggests a VSD-I, Nebula or Majestic.
* Starpoint - "carrier" and task force flagship; possibly Endurance class, but a Defender-class assault carrier is credible; a Ton Falk or a Quasar Fire or a Battle Horn seems less likely. Are there other carrier types?
* Volant - "carrier", only seen in a simulator; could be any of the above.
* Floren, Polaron - unknown, but not flagship-sized.
* Thunderhead, Aboukir, Fulminant, Werra, Garland and Banshee - destroyed at N'zoth; based on the task forces deployed, most should be Fifth Fleet and thus New Class, but specific types can only be guessed at based on name-patterns.
* Ballarat - "fleet carrier", task force flagship; based on the task forces deployed at N'zoth it ought to be a Fifth Fleet ship and thus Endurance-class.
* Mandjur - "cruiser" escorting Ballarat; ought to be a Fifth Fleet ship, so presumably Majestic class; could also be Sacheen-class, but the standard escort type don't ever seem to be called "cruisers" in the BFC.
* High Haven - Nebulon-B, Corona, Sacheen, or by way of retcon, the TLJ type?
* Endor, Shooting Star - "Alliance frigates", though Endor must be after Endor, and identified in the FAQ as Corona-class; Cracken's Threat Dossier, by saying that the Corona-class pair are still in service as of 17 ABY, implies two successive pairs of ships with these names.

Novels of 18-19 ABY

* Yavin, Tatooine - "Mon Calamari Star Cruisers" in The New Rebellion; Yavin at least being a purpose-built warship of the New Republic era; movie tonality evokes the Home One and wingless jumping into hyperspace in Jedi, but Yavin's weak hull and provision of flak lasers would support a retcon as an MC30 frigate.
* Calamari - "battleship", commanded by a general and associated with a squzadron of B-wings; if it's a Calamari ship, it need be no larger than MC40.
* Naritus - "Mon Calamari cruiser", Assault at Selonia; identified as an old MC80a in Cracken's Threat Dossier.
* "two or three other ships" - unidentified; part of the force deployed at Coruscant, then deploy with Naritus.
* "twenty-five modern ships with modern weapons" - unidentified; the force Ackbar shows up with at Corellia, Showdown at Centerpoint. As a retcon, the most obvious candidate is Task Force Gemstone from the Fifth Fleet (the "modern ships" suggest the Fifth, the larger number fits the Endurance's flag task force better than the other units, and the other two fleet carriers, Venture and Ballarat, had large sections of their flight decks destroyed at Doornik-319 and N'zoth respectively, and there must be some doubt if they'd be back at full strength), though obvious isn't the only route available...
* Assault Frigate - unnamed, flagship of Admrial Vriss, deployed near the Empire, Specter of the Past.
* "two Star Cruisers" - unnamed, based at Havering, near the Empire, Specter of the Past.
* "two Nebulon-B escort frigates" - unnamed, in the Peregrine task force along with the eponymous Katana-fleet Dreadnaught, Specter of the Past.
* Freedom's Fury, Spirit of Mindor, Starline Warrior, Stellar Sentinel, Welling's Revenge, Garfin, Beledeen II, Webley - unknown types, assigned to the enlarged Peregrine task force, Vision of the Future.

And as I said, that's really just a set of over-detailed fanboy notes - any thoughts, additions or disagreements should be shared!!

Remember, even though the ANH and ESB models are generally regarded as WEG's "ISD-I" and "ISD-II", that's really only an old fan conjecture with very scanty support - defining the difference between them isn't helped by the fact that the two models are used interchangeably for the same ships, as with the Tyrant at Hoth in ESB (the reason being that the mounting points on the "ESB-ISD" don't easily allow low-aft shots, so ships seen from this angle use the "ANH-ISD" model). In terms of movie canon, all Star Destroyers are schroedingerian anomalies that are simultaneously both versions - and as I've said often enough, I'm inclined to regard the "ESB-ISD" as properly a VSD-II...



So, while the images of Harbinger I've seen seem to primarily use "ESB-ISD" details, there may be some "ANH-ISD" ones used too; so it's perfectly possible that its flank turrets are ion cannon, whether we take them as an oddly-drawn interpretation of one or other of the existing turret types, or an alternative configuration...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Not worried overly-much about that one...I am focused on the Imperial/Rebellion era for the ones I am thinking about.

And I am going to double down on my head canon...there is a dept of the Imperial Navy that keeps track of what ships are destroyed then automatically re-assigns that name to a new ship coming out of the shipyard.

 

Given that in the real world we have classes of warships being built and procured for 3+ decades or more (while upgrading the tech on the otherwise standard hull along the way), I'm totally fine with standard MC80's being new built in Destiny's Way. In fact, I'd argue that any MC80, MC80A, MC80B, MC90, and ImpStars built in later years are more akin to the modern surface combatants like the Arleigh Burke-flight III- they mostly LOOK like the original Burke's, but their weapons, sensors, and other tech are more modern and advanced than their original forebearers.

As for the Mediator-class, regardless of the few scant named appearances in the novels, I don't discount that fact that they are new builds that are stronger than their predecessors and that they are part of a major shipbuilding program. I'd argue that the vessel having a distinctive class name vs. an alphanumeric designation makes this a truly new design, but beyond that, the only safe assumption if it's newer and stronger is that it is more powerful than the MC90.

A little side bar RE: Destiny's Way. I'd have to dig WAY BACK into my archives, but I distinctly asked the author WJW why he used MC80 and MC80B cruisers vs. newer ones. As he was new to Star Wars, his answer back to me was that he was given a copy of the EGTVV and since the MC80 and MC80B are the only cruisers mentioned, he used those. Since the guide said they were slow to build, that is why he invented the Republic-class cruisers to be a quick build ship.

While I'd argue that Mediator-class/BAC/Strident-class are more common than being flagships/carriers, choosing three designs (from three of the most prominent New Republic member worlds- Mon Cala, Bothawui, and Corellia) is a VERY New Republic thing to do.

And- don't forget that the MC90 was considered a contemporary of the New Class. I've always suspected that these cruisers are alot more common that the text otherwise shows.

Oh, I agree that KMac's inspiration was the pivot from battleships to carriers and the hull sharing from WWII. My analogy to the failed or misguided US Navy attempts with the LCS, Zumwalt, and the never build CG intented to be the Tico successors was merely a modern example that I used to illustrate my idea that the New Class could have been a misguided attempt to "pivot" or a partial failure.

I always read the "sleek hulled Star Destroyers" as Nebula-class and the "assault cruisers" as being the Majestic-class personally, but the text doesn'y really rule either out I suppose.

I'm at the office, but I seem to recall the JASB specifically listing the Startide as an MC90. But I'll have to check later.

--Adm. Nick

 

Which the Jedi strike force sent to the scrap heap. The Remnant lost a lot of assets in that system. Dominion and Harbinger were only two of the named losses. According to Han’s ruminations, the dozens of Star Destroyers the Moffs brought to secure their new holding were reduced to a mere handful by the time the attack on Shedu Maad took place. Certainly explains why Lecersen, Rezer and the others were so bitter towards Caedus and so readily changed sides.

 

I'm not following - if the existing categories can be given a sensor/weapons upgrade while retaining their type-designation, then how can we infer that a Mediator is innately "more powerful than" an MC90?

At this point, I've curtailed the reply - partially for speed of response, but I would really just be butting heads with your headcanons, and I have no desire to do that...

(EDIT: And then I edited it down even further over brunch. )

When you line up all the known names and numbers, there simply isn't space for multiple Nebula-class ships as task-force flagships, and the carrier-escort role within each task force is assigned exclusively to the Majestic class - authorial intent per the Black FAQ is that the "Star Destroyer" Resolve in the same sequence is Majestic-class, too.

Now, it's entirely possible that the Fifth Fleet structure wasn't actually planned-out in any depth, and it's also possible that some intended continuity points were derailed by edits and ad hoc renaming (the most obvious example being the Vanguard / Warrior / Marauder at ILC-905), but the details as given on the page don't leave much room for manoeuvre.

In fact, I can't find a single shred of evidence for any Nebula-class ships in the Fifth Fleet at all.

*looks again*

I still can't see it in any of the obvious sections. Anyone?

If it is there, it's there; but I wouldn't be surprised if we all just assumed that anything built after Defiance was an MC90, when that's not really the way Mon Cal designations work...

On the other hand, I'm capable of even missing my own thoughts - I forgot to revise my notes to tag Mandjur as a Sacheen (as well as the convoluted juggling of ship rosters, there's also a broad contrast with Indomitable in how the hangar configuration is described)...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

@Thrawn McEwok

Well, we DO know that the Mediator-class is newer than the MC90, based on passage below from the EGTW:

"Neither program included battlecruisers or dreadnoughts, which the New Republic’s military strategists saw as obsolete. But the lessons of the Dark Empire, the Battle of Orinda, and the Black Fleet Crisis forced a change in philosophy, leading to the Mon Calamari creating the Mediator-class battlecruiser and then the massive Viscount-class Star Defender."

I believe you mentioned in an earlier reply that you didn't see any evidence for the Mediator to be a new build, but this passage clearly states it is.

As for being more powerful than the MC90, since it IS newer than the MC90, when we take the text from VP into account as "an updated and more heavily armed and armored version of the Mon Calamari star cruiser", it's pretty clear that the MBC is a newer and more powerful.

But hey, you are entitlted to your own headcanon.

--Adm. Nick

 

Sorry for the double post (no longer a Mod, I can't edit after 90 minutes), but RE: Startide.

@Thrawn McEwok is right. The primary reference the JASB has to the Startide does NOT state it is an MC90. Just that it was the only cruiser under construction during the Battle of Calamari that wasn't destroyed. So I suppose it could be an MC80, MC80A, MC80B, or MC90.

It might have been classified one in the Star Wars Encyclopedia, but I'll have to check this when I get home from work tonight.

--Adm. Nick

 

Nah.

The first of these quotes says the Mediator represents a departure from the Defender and New Class programs, which topped out with a compact 1040m Star Destroyer hull. The second says it's updated compared with an unspecified earlier baseline, which could simply mean the movie pickle - and in terms of what it's trying to communicate to the reader, I'm pretty confident that's exactly what's intended...

Neither of these remarks requires the Mediator to be anything more than a new iteration of the existing MC80 type - whether that means they're an MC80B or MC90 or something else...

(To clarify what may be a misunderstanding, though, I use the term new-build to mean simply that the actual ships are new, and I do think that's the case with the Mediator - your analogy to modern destroyer "batches" / "flights" is a good one!)

I have my moments.

Seriously, though, let me know if the Complete Encyclopedia says anything?

Isn't any new-build Mon Cal cruiser in this period an MC80B or an MC90 by definition, though?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

If we DO agree that the Mediator-class ships are new construction of actual ships, why do you think they have to just be newer versions of the MC80/MC90 line. I understand that is your interpetation, but there is nothing I see precludes my assumption of them being an entirely new design being just as likely.

Using my modern destroyer flights analogy, they are all still called Areligh Burke-class DDG's. They don't change the class name. The fact that Salvatore chose to give us a new vessel with a distinctive class name just gives further evidence that it is an entirely new creation. He wasn't opposed to creating new classes, as we see with the Ranger-class. Though knowing you, you simply state those are DP20 gunships with a different name.

I'll check in 3-4 hours, unless Sinre or someone else gets to it quicker.

Depends. Even if the Mediator-class is a new class entirely, there isn't anything that means that the Mon Calamari aren't still producing new hulls of existing ships like the MC80B or MC90 as well. Each might fill a different niche in the NRDF's fleet structure.

On a related note- where does the MC90 fall into your thinking for your task force layout as seen in the Fifth Fleet? The only distinct MC90 reference I recall from this period was Starships of the Galaxy noting that the New Republic tended to keep them based in the Core, only dispatching them to the Rim for emergencies. Is your assumption that most of the task forces comprising the First, Second, Third, and Fourth Fleets are all commanded by an MC90? What of the MC80B?

Personally, I tend to imagine the old Legends NR fleets (outside of the Fifth for a very specific period) each being built around a battle line of a few dozen Mon Cal cruisers and supported my multiple lines of escorts, pickets, and fighters, ala the RASB.

--Adm. Nick