Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

reminder that the Design a Ship Contest entries are due on Dec 18, tomorrow people!
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Lack of evidence is as meaningful in its own way as positive evidence is. It means there are things we can't know for sure, and that the "evidence" that does exist is inconclusive and open to different interpretations...

Heavy Turbolaser turrets are a perfectly decent size to contain pairs of XX9s, including their turbines. We know that the actual barrel sections are interchangeable, and your argument depends on the rest of the external housing being a standardised and integral part of the design, which is hardly conclusive. An XX9 is a turbolaser, a combination of turbine, capacitor, and (interchangeable) barrels - not a chassis.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the reference to the twin-turrets as "Heavy Blaster Stations" - a TL is just a large blaster, after all.

I'm proposing the idea as a way to reconcile statements that the ISD's main armament consists of 60 TLs and 60 ion cannon (identified as XX9s and NK7s respectively) with the six highly visible twin-TL turrets.

IF the six twin-turrets are part of the ISD-I's main armament, AND its main armament consists of sixty XX9s THEN the six twin-turrets contain a percentage of the 60 XX9s.

Simple.

Sure, there are other ways to interpret it, but this one seems the most logical to me. You can disagree, of course, but you can't say that you're RIGHT any more than I can...

Actually, the length of the Ex was decided based on the studio model, which isn't a guarantee that the movies are accurate...

It's not an assertion, merely a suggestion. Based on the size of the Imperial fleets directly described, and the victory of the Rebellion, the accuracy of claims that there were "25,000" Imperial-class Star Destroyers can be questioned.

There are three ways to explain the two "25,000" references: as accurate statements of the nuber of ISDs, as accurately indicating something other than ISDs, or as misinformation.

No, I'm suggesting that:

1.) The Navy claims to have 25,000 Star Destroyers.

2.) This claim is accepted by officers like Pellaeon at the time.

3.) They become senior Admirals in the aftermath of the redeployment of the fleet and the loss of territory to the New Republic.

4.) They find themselves commanding just a few hundred Star Destroyers in total.

5.) They automatically assume that the Navy has lost 24,800 Star Destroyers.

This doesn't require the initial claim to be accurate, just that it was believed.

However, Remnant suggests a Navy far smaller than 200 Imperial-class Star Destroyers, so I suspect it's easier to read Pellaeon's 25,000 figure as simply relating to a wider group of ships...

Did I mention Coruscant?

Grunger thinks he can make himself the next Emperor with just thirty Star Destroyers...

I suspect that he probably plans to seize Coruscant and depose Isard, but the main point is to do with the size of the fleet he uses.

 

If this were true, then the XX8, which has admittedly the came components as the XX9, just in a different chassis, would be the exact same designation. But there is one, indicating that even simple changes as puching the whole thing into the hull somewhat deserve a new designatior. A complete reconfiguration of the elements to fit them into a flank battery would certanly rate the same.

She used her fleet to conduct an assault on a single lightly defended planet, and conduct a series of hit and fade raids on random worlds, losing ships when they came across opposition (Chardaan cost three VSDs to fighters) To call it any sort of sucessful Galaxy-wide campaign is a farce.

 

Strange, because the XX-8 is obviously differentiated from the XX-9 via chassis and internal mechanisms, and every single identified XX-9 has the exact same chassis and internal mechanisms.

You realize you?ve yet to provide evidence that the internal mechanisms of a Turbolaser can be redesigned without a designation change, and have managed to provide positive evidence for exactly the contrary.

If the only difference between an XX-8 and XX-9 were internal mechanization, then internal redesign, as you are proposing for the Heavy Turbolaser Turrets, would warrant a new designation.

?Blaster Cannons? are referred to in the NEGTW&T as atmospheric artillery pieces. While the basic Blaster Cannon is less powerful than your standard Laser Cannon, the Heavy Turbolaser Turrets on the Imperial-I are identified as ?Heavy Blasters? and ?Heavy Turbolasers? indicating a possible link between the two pieces.

I can however point out that your ?logic? is nothing more than a personal rationalization based on assumptions that you can redesign an XX-9, that the XX-9 is the only Turbolaser type on the vessel, and that for some reason multiple explicit statements of 60 XX-9 Turbolasers can be interpreted as 60 XX-9 Turbolaser parts.

Personally, I would like to retain as much of the canon as we can, opting not to eliminate either the established WEG numbers or the established ICS numbers, and instead combine all the statements as if they were all true.

You would like to hold only the WEG numbers as true and forcibly integrate all other statements into those WEG figures.

Tell me this, how are we supposed to address the existence of the 64 flank cannons and 8+ Proton Torpedo clusters on the ISD-II with the 50/50 WEG figures?

Leland Chee said; ?We've agreed that new size Z is more accurate to the film, so that's what we're going with.?
And in case you haven?t noticed before, every instance of ISD/Executor visuals within the movies are consistent with the length.


?and I almost forgot, Leland Chee also posted something else at the OS about Role Playing Game Numbers?

?Conversely, I think it would be a determinant if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.?

Dodging the Burden then?


The Director of Imperial Intelligence is authorized to seize control of the Empire?s civilian government and superimpose herself as the Commander in Chief in the absence of the Emperor?

I somehow doubt that, as well as the legal authority of the Imperial Ruling Council to seize control in the absence of the Emperor.

I do like how you consistently refer to the Empire as a unified political and military body post-3 ABY however.


If the Imperial Remnants have 6,000 Imperial Star Destroyers at their command, Grand Admiral Thrawn?s personal 6-month offensive has to share those capital ships with the ?nominally loyal? warlords, the Moffs and Admirals considered to be dictators who maintain command of their own fleets (ref; Kaine, Krennel) and apparently refuse to supply Capital Ships to the Loyalist Fleet, the Starfleet elements protecting those fortress worlds, and the basic Loyalist Sector Groups that would be required for the IRC and Thrawn to effectively command a Loyalist defense of the ?Empire?.

Consider for a moment the time period in which Grand Admiral Thrawn is conquering Sectors.

The Empire doubles in size over 6-months an expansion of ~250 Sectors.

 

Does the XX8 have exactly the same components? It certainly seems similar, and it does seem to be always tower-mounted, but it could be the very ability of the XX9 to be mounted in different ways that leads to the different designation - that and/or some minor modifications.

It's also possible that the twin-turret guns could be a different subtype, with a designation like "XX9t"...

That can be attributed to the fact that two of the three elements were commanded by Daala and a Fett clone respectively, and the third was thrown out-of-position by the Jedi...

The Imperials don't have any hesitation unleashing this force against the New Repubic - and the New Republic is caught seriously off-guard.

Moreover, the fleet remains intact.

At Chardaan, Cronus lost two VicStars operating without fighter escort to a concentrated multi-squadron fighter attack. Cronus' command ship and two others are destroyed at Yavin by Galactic Voyager and her escorts, plus Knight Hammer crippled by sabotage...

This leaves the Empire with forty-five ISDs (I don't know what the other twenty-eight that aren't with Pellaeon are doing) and 107 VicStars, of which 90 are continuing their raiding when Cronus brings twenty to Yavin...

If it wasn't for Callista's sabotage of Knight Hammer, it would be very hard to call this attack a failure...

Uhh, you need to learn to differentiate between evidence and proof.

If all we had on the XX9 were the statements indicating that XX9s were the "Death Star trench gun" design, then that would be the basis of any consideration of them; however we also have statements that they form the homogenous main TL armament of the ISD-I.

As there's no proof forcing us to limit the XX9 to the single chassis design (indeed, we know that at least two turret/barrel variants exist) that means the twin-turret guns can be identified as paired XX9s.

Assuming that the turrets hold the entire TL units, they're pretty much the right size, after all - and their placement above the engines suggests that they don't combine those turrets with "internal" components of anything like the same relative scale as the XX9s' turbines...

You have no grounds for saying that this interpretation is impossible.

Quotes, please? Does this say that blaster cannons are "atmospheric artillery pieces", or does it identify certain "atmospheric artillery pieces" as blaster cannons?

 

"The Director of Imperial Intelligence is authorized to seize control of the Empire?s civilian government and superimpose herself as the Commander in Chief in the absence of the Emperor?"

You must not understand what a regent is.

"I somehow doubt that, as well as the legal authority of the Imperial Ruling Council to seize control in the absence of the Emperor."

What are you talking about? Sate Pestage ran the Empire since at least Hoth. People like Dangor and Pestage had more than the legal authority to run the Empire, since that's what they were doing even when Palpatine was around.

"I do like how you consistently refer to the Empire as a unified political and military body post-3 ABY however."

That's because it is. Warlord elements that broke away like Kaine, Zsinj, and Harrsk aren't part of the Empire, and it's ridiculous to think they are. It wasn't until Isard took over that there can be any real questioning of legitimate governance over the Empire, but after Isard went warlord herself on Thyferra, governance fell to Dangor and a Moff Council and gave Thrawn command of the military (and judging from how many elements of the Empire's former government structure came to Coruscant after it fell, civil authority stayed very much intact up to that point). As the sole surviving Grand Admiral (Grant doesn't count), Thrawn has perfectly legitimate military authority over the Empire's military forces.

"The Grand Admiral has nine named Imperial Star Destroyers in his fleet and a maximum of 30 based on the Bilbringi fleet seen in the sourcebook."

Uh, no. Visual confirmation of the existence of 30 ISDs at Bilbringi makes 30 a minimum. It's common sense.

 

Technically speaking we can only confirm nine named Imperial Star Destroyers in Thrawn?s armada. Although combined with the Grand Admiral?s usual taskforce of 1 Superiority Fleet it is possible he has another four taskforces under his direct command, but can you assure me no Loyalist forces were diverted from a Sector Fleet to protect Bilbringi?


So the Ruling Council and not the Emperor is in command of the Empire? Good to know?

Where does the authority of the Ruling Council come from?

 

"Technically speaking we can only confirm nine named Imperial Star Destroyers in Thrawn?s armada."

Uh, sure, but who cares what their names are? You can only confirm the names of 9 Star Destroyers that Thrawn has. We can confirm Thrawn commands at least 30 based on your apparent exhaltation of the drawing in the Sourcebook.

"Although combined with the Grand Admiral?s usual taskforce of 1 Superiority Fleet it is possible he has another four taskforces under his direct command, but can you assure me no Loyalist forces were diverted from a Sector Fleet to protect Bilbringi?"

What are you talking about? Thrawn's in charge of the entire Imperial military and a Grand Admiral with the power and right to do so. You think he depended upon the gracious donations of the Moffs and remaining IRC members for military assets, or something?

"So the Ruling Council and not the Emperor is in command of the Empire?"

Right. The Emperor actually did very little. Administration was carried out by the IRC.

"Where does the authority of the Ruling Council come from?"

It was granted to them by Palpatine, of course (though there's a chance the Senate needed to approve it first), but that power and authority exists after the Emperor's demise regardless of who granted it to them.

 

So you are proposing that the XX8 and XX9, which are described as virtually identical barring how tall the tower is and whether some of the components are sunk inside the hull as components are different enough to merit a new designation, but not a turret that has barrels far larger than the XX9, a visibly different layout, and volume 2.5+ times more than the XX9? That is definately in reverse of logic. Due to similarities, you could argue that the XX8 and XX9 are subtypes of the same basic design, but not the flank turrets

Let's look at the objectives and records here:

Pellaeon- destroy the Jedi, or at least prepare the way for Knight Hammer to finish Yavin.
Result- Jedi throw his ISDs so far they exit the Yavin system and end up weeks away. Total kills- 1 Jedi
Colonel Cronus- sow chaos among the NR, strike targets of opportunity. Support Knight Hammer.
Results- Khomm (undefended) bombarded. Chardaan starfighter shipyards destroyed, loss of 2 VSDs. Porus Vida art museum (undefended) destroyed. Diplomatic convoy (unarmed) destroyed. Cronus calls mission accomplished, heads to Yavin with 20 VSDs, sends the rest onto "secondary targets." Loses 3 VSDs in battle with MC-90 and 4 Corellian gunships (one of which immediately destroyed), despite support from Knight Hammer, an Executor class dreadnought. Oddly, Corellian gunships eferred to as "battleships." Thanks KJA. MC-90 switches between battleship and battlecruiser. Maybe MC-90 not 1255 meters long?
Total losses- 5 VSDs confirmed. Total kills- 1 shipyard + fighters, 1 art museum, 1 diplomatic convoy, 3 corellian gunships, presumably "secondary targets.
Daala- destroy the Jedi, later destroy Galactic Voyager.
Results- 3 Corellian Gunships destroyed. No confirmed Jedi kills, despite planetary bombardment. Engines sabotoged (engine banks said to be "kilometers" from bridge tower ) Engine sabototage sufficient to cause rear third of ship to seal off. (How many bombers were in those bays? And why put them next to a reactor?) Ship lost to Yavin.
Total losses- 1 SSD, 5 VSDs, numerous ground troops. Total kills- 1 Jedi, 3 Corellian gunships, 1 shipyard+fighters, 1 art museum, 1 diplomatic convoy, secondary targets.

Based on those numbers, how is that a victory?

Other notes on reading the final Darksaber battle for the first time in a year: Rebel fleet sufficient to overwhelm Knight Hammer and the VSDs arrives. 5 Mon Cal cruisers, and scores of ships, including Assault Frigates and Strike cruisers. Maybe those Mon Cals are like the MC-90 and far larger than 1255m. Later joined by numerous battleships.

I

 

Well, we certainly missed the point by an AU?.

If Grand Admiral Thrawn is capable of conquering 63 Sectors in 6-months with a single Superiority Fleet of 6 Imperial Star Destroyers, with a maximum deployment of nine Star Destroyers, the Imperial Loyalist Navy requires a mere 24-36 Imperial Star Destroyers.

If Grand Admiral Thrawn is capable of conquering 63 Sectors in 6-months with Five Superiority Fleets the Loyalist Navy requires at least 120 Star Destroyers.

If the 20+ unnamed Imperial Star Destroyers at Bilbringi were attached to Loyalist or ?nominally loyalist? local Sector Fleets, then the former number is valid, if they are members of Thrawn?s armada the second number is valid.

There is no mention of any Sector Force reinforcements, Thrawn specifically precluded any movements of the fleet that may betray his ambush, and positioned his personal fleet at Bilbringi to the best of my knowledge.

I would argue there was no Sector Fleet reinforcement, however to do so questions the idea of an Imperial Shipyard without Sector Fleet support.

It is likely Thrawn?s armada is 5 Superiority fleets, it is not however definitive.


And by the way, Thrawn did require the support and gracious donations of the Starfleets and the Moffs, and he apparently spent 6-months attacking the New Republic and consolidating Imperial Forces to prove he deserved that support. Support that in the end was described as a ?tenuous alliance? with the Remnants, and ?far from universal.?

??directed by a single sovereign, chosen for life.?

Supreme Chancellor Palpatine made it quite clear in his ascension to the Imperial Throne that he derived his just power as leviathan from the consent of the Republic Senate. The Empire itself was founded legally by an action of a Senatorial Super-Majority, with the ability to amend the constitution at will, mostly Palpatine?s.

We are unaware of any Imperial Rule of Succession, and the DESB apparently makes it clear Palpatine left no final orders or mechanism to facilitate that shift.

In the absence of any constitutional amendment, technically speaking the legal authority to appoint a new Galactic Sovereign lay with the out of session Imperial Senate.

Instead the Senate remained essentially disbanded from Palpatine?s order 0 ABY and the Imperial Ruling Council took control.

Given that no attempt to reconvene the Senate was made I would consider this moment the divergence from explicit legal authority.

The de facto Regent of the Imperial State would seem to be Grand Vizier Sate Pestage, who apparently ran the day-to-day affairs of the Empire by the Battle of Hoth, and would seem the implied ruler of the Imperial State in the absence of the Emperor and Senate.

Pestage however was deposed by Isard and the Ruling Council 6 months into his rule, and Iceheart sized the throne.

One could make an argument that, in the absence of the Sovereign and the Legislature, Pestage as a de facto regent was implied to be the successor to the throne.

Pestage lasted a mere 6-months, Isard deposed him via political machinations, wiped out her political adversaries, and Ars Dangor the technical head of the Ruling Council without the Vizier, although still apparently issuing orders to the likes of Admiral Zsinj during this time, was left as a subordinate.

Isard appears to have superimposed herself upon the throne, with no actual implicit legal authority to support her.

That she ruled from Coruscant and a majority of the Imperial Starfleet assumed her to be the Commander in Chief is beside the point.

She is a warlord, albeit a loyalist.

Grand Admiral Thrawn on the other hand is undisputedly the highest-ranking officer of the Imperial Starfleet known to the galaxy, in a

 

You could argue that, but my argument's not based on that alone - the driving imperative is the need to reconcile the flak turrets with the main armament of 60 XX9s and 60 NK7s.

The fact that it's not a victory is primarily due to the destruction of the Knight Hammer, combined with the Force-throw that puts Pellaeon's Star Destroyer squadron out-of-position at Yavin - neither of which is done by the New Republic Defense Force.

If the New Republic had arrived at Yavin to find a Super-class Star Destroyer, seventeen Imperial-class and twenty Victory-class, then the Empire might well have won...

And I don't think Khomm, Chardaan and Porus Vida were the only targets of Cronus' attacks. Chardaan is a significant starfighter construction centre, and should probably be taken as typical of the targets.

On passing notes, Calling the Corellian gunships "battleships" makes sense in terms of the "small Corellian battleships" of the RotJ script, though...

And I don't think "the kilometers of armored metal and sealed bulkheads" neccessarily refers to the distance from the drives to the bridge, rather than the hull in general...

*nods*

I don't think the Mon Cal cruisers need to be particularly large. If each is a task-force command ship (f

 

If they could have they would have and since they did not, they could not, and therefore the ships do not exist...

Amazing deduction...

The destruction of the Rebel Alliance would require a coordinated pacification campaign capable of containing the fleet in a particular portion of the galaxy and systematically hunting then down and destroying the Rebellion with superior force.

Palpatine found this difficult and opted to draw the Alliance Navy to the Death Star II and awaiting ambush.

In the aftermath of Endor, during some 6-8 Months, the Rebel Alliance was suddenly growing in power.
Key strategic assets were attained, most importantly the defection of the Fondor shipyards.
?Hundreds of planets? were won over with diplomacy while the Alliance consolidated its forces.

Fondor and Mon Calamari place two major galactic shipyards at the disposal of the New Republic.

8 Months after Endor the Rebellion launched an ?aggressive push into Imperial territory? prompting Isard to recall ?hundreds of Star Destroyers? to protect the core worlds. Ackbar however is said to have killed Grand Admiral Syn at Kashyyk, as well as scored victors ?in the Mid and Inner Rims.?

Ackbar?s invasion prompted the recall of Black Sword Command and apparently Admiral Zsinj?s Quelii Oversector Commands. Ars Dangor, as head and founder of the Emperor?s Ruling Council on Coruscant issued orders to Admiral Zsinj.

Interesting is the description that, ?no one had the raw power Zsinj commanded; he controlled the resources of the Quelii Oversector, not to mention the awesome firepower of the Iron Fist.?

Grand Moff Kaine?s Penstar Alignment with Reaper and apparently Jerec?s Vengeance comes to mind as a contender for opposing Zsinj, however Oversector Outer does not appear to cover nearly the expanse of space Zsinj?s fiefdom controlled.

It is also interesting to see Dangor issuing orders for the Emperor?s Ruling Council approximately 8-months after Endor, a time period in which Isard is acting as Regent.

A number of the Starfleet defected in one way or another, however, ?the bulk of the fleet, including Captain Pellaeon of the Star Destroyer Chimera, remained loyal to Isard.?

What did Isard do with ?the bulk of the fleet??
She moved it Core-ward, recalling hundreds of Star Destroyers, Oversector Commands, and Grand Admirals.

Interesting note, the NEC points out that, ?had the surviving Grand Admirals united against their common enemy, the New Republic would have been wiped out while still ion infancy. Fortunately, that threat never materialized.?

BY 6-7 ABY the Empire was, ?still the galaxy?s dominant government. Despite the rise of rouge warlords, Imperials held a majority of the settled planets and held a stranglehold on the important Core Worlds.?

The Loyalist Faction was still entrenched in the Core and, ?Without an aggressive military push, the New Republic would never bring an end to the Galactic Civil War.?

Essentially, if Isard had maintained control of the Grand Admirals, retained the fortress worlds, and protected Coruscant the New Republic would be stopped at the Inner Rim.

The question is, why did Isard give away Coruscant and allow the Empire to disintegrate?

?.Operation Shadow Hand.

Palpatine, alive and well by 4 ABY did a lot to undermine the factions in the Empire.

An argument predicated on the acceptance of the WEG statistics above all other sources as correct.

Galactic Voyager was an Mc9

 

I'll take a look for it!

This works... which would mean we should probably drop the 450m Strike Cruisers below the fifteen major ships - though even so, it's worth noting that two of them are worth a VicStar, so four of them across five battlegroups even out the battle, even before you start to think about gunships and fighters...



And you're absolutely right about the force they take into Hutt space. That works very nicely. The Dreadnaught is never mentioned explicitly in the novel (and I can't see a reference in the original Essential Chronology either), but the fourth gunship isn't in Ackbar's "fleet" for the show at Nal Hutta, and three corvettes are missing when Wedge takes his force into the asteroids after Darksaber... so we know that we never see the full group at once...

The Dreadnaught and one gunship could have been left out for "balance" during the display, and the Dreadnaught and three corvettes presumably remained outside the asteroids when Wedge attacked the superlaser - and perhaps some other ships, as well, both times?

One MC90, one Assault Frigate, one Dreadnaught, and at least six corvetets and four gunships, probably the flag task force of the Coruscant Sector Fleet/Home Fleet...?

Wedge's escort frigate could have been added to the taskforce temporarily, perhaps, since he should really be commanding the Third Fleet from Lusankya, or else Ackbar lent out a ship from the Home Fleet to him in JA3...

*wonders if the JA3 Sourcebook says anything*

Sarcasm doesn't change the fact that I'm right.

We know the Empire regrouped and consolidated its forces, ceding territory deliberately to the "Rebels" - now it seems they did this twice; if the Empire had 25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers, then this movement would have allowed hundreds, probably even thousands of them, to be used to strike back against Ackbar's front-line forces...

So: why weren't they used?

And what reason do you have for placing Zsinj's recall to Coruscant eight months after Endor, out of interest? The ERC are the Cabal - the group of Advisors uneasily coexisting with Pestage the months immediately after Endor - and Cracken's Threat Dossier says that after defying the ERC, Zsinj learned that "the Alliance of Free Planets" were looking for representatives to "the Galactic Caucus", so he mounted a misinformation campaign to make the Rebels think that the Empire had left the area.

The reference to the "Alliance of Free Planets" places this in the month after Endor...

You also misunderstand Zsinj's territory. His core "Quelii Oversector" may be rather small - perhaps associated with the Empire's war against the Drackmarians; the vast volume of space he acquires later isn't part of Quelii, although Rancor Base at Dathomir is inside the original Quelii Sector...

Because she regarded the Rebels as unbeatable in open war, and planned to take over the New Republic itself politically...

By being at Thyferra, she forced the NR to deal with her through the bacta cartel; as she explains in The Bacta War, she was sure that the Rebels would be unable to functi

 

The point is that victory is measured in how well objectives are accomplished. The goal was to sow chaos and destroy the Jedi. The end result was one Jedi killed, a handful of minor strikes on unarmed targets and one starfighter shipyard.

You don't get to seperate the Jedi actions from the battle, their actions did happen and contributed to the battle. They were part of the equasion going in- Daala knew she was attacking Jedi. Yes, if they had not did their thing, the NR taskforce would be facing a major enemy. And probably lost their force, at cost to the Empire. But as it happened, the attack was an utter failure, and typical of Daala. She likes attacking symbolic targets of relatively minor strategic value, and loses heavily in the process.

Chardaan was a shipyard, but the other two targets were undefended planets. The typical attack should be estimated as the average of those three targets.

The shockwave is mentioned as travelling through "kilometers of armored metal and sealed bulkheads" and then the bridge tower is rocked. Not the other way around.

 

Or, we could use Ackbar's description of it in the novel:

I agree that Daala (and to an extent, Cronus) made decisions that blunted the impact of the attack; but my point is to do with the scale of a fleet the size of the one Daala assembled in the Imperial Core, its relative strength compared to other fleets we see, and its impact on the New Republic...

Don't let the narrative mislead you too much; for all that Knight Hammer was lost at Yavin, and for all that the narrative focused on the undefended targets Cronus attacked, the purpose of the Imperial campaign was to hit the military-industrial infrastructure of the New Republic and - as a secondary target - psychologically assert Imperial dominance in the best Tarkin way. If it wasn't for the loss of the Knight Hammer - or indeed, the Yavin attack generally - the outcome of the campaign would have been very different.

Also, bear in mind that the Jedi resistance - the entire NR alert, in fact - hinges on two damaged Jedi ships escaping the Deep Core and Hoth. If that shot had taken out Kyp's hyperdrive rather than his sublights, there'd have been no Galactic Voyager, no rescue fleet, no Callista or Luke, and no Force-throw to drive the Star Destroyers to the edge of the system...

... and none of them would have mattered, anyway...

The Jedi Academy would have been overwhelmed, and Daala's fleet would have remained intact...

The meaning of "the kilometers of armored metal and sealed bulkheads" isn't tightly defined; it could mean the distance from the blast to the bridge tower, but it could also mean simply the spaceframe in general...

Also, where exactly is the hangar? If it's at the very rear of the Star Destroyer, behind the engines (so that the opening faces backwards, and the bulkhead with the engines on the other side is forward), then it would be more than 1km from the bridge - probably more than 1.5km...

Or how wide is an 8km Star Destroyer, if the bay is tucked in at the end of one of the "wings" of the hull?

We also have the problem of where the engines are. Was KJA working with The Imperial Sourcebook, which only clearly showed engines right at the stern? The three sets of three engines implied by the EGtVV are far more widely spaced...

Ultimately, though, I don't think this one line overrules the multiple references to Knight Hammer as an 8km ship, any more than the description of a Corellian gunship as "only a quarter the size" of a Victory-class Star Destr

 

On the Thrawn fleet: The impression I got from both the trilogy and the WEG sourcebook that the fleet was only the one that Thrawn had personal, direct control over - he was a hands-on kind of admiral, after all - whereas he still commanded various Imperial actions all over the galaxy at the same time.
It seems like the focus is on Thrawn's fleet because (in-universe) Thrawn's most spectacular victories are where he personally commands and (out-of-universe) the stories are going to focus on the main characters.
Frankly, brilliantly using a small fleet of ordinary warships seems to have been a lot more effective than stupidly using super-ultra-megaweapons...

Not at all, and you know that's not what I said.

Gosh, it almost looks like we should agree, especially since (as I'm sure you know) I don't shy away from "aggressive" posting myself when it warrants.
You've almost grasped my point - now replacement "civil" with "aggressive" and you're there.

My general frustration is this is the same sort of behavior that I see in many of the same people who say they resent this behavior in him - the main difference, of course, is in the way they act.
And saying that someone's "civil" behavior, regardless of whether you think their arguements have merit, is an incitement to rage and attack someone (as one person has claimed) is beyond contemptible.

 

IceHawk-181:

"There is no mention of any Sector Force reinforcements, Thrawn specifically precluded any movements of the fleet that may betray his ambush, and positioned his personal fleet at Bilbringi to the best of my knowledge."

Betray his ambush? There was no way the Republic could have known Thrawn predicted Bilbringi was Ackbar's real target. If the Rebels could mass a force and make it about 99% probably the Ubiquitore base was the target, then Thrawn could mass a force and make it look like he's responding to the supposed threat.

Based on accounts of the Imperial fleet's reversion to real space, 30 ISDs was the tip of the iceberg.

"And by the way, Thrawn did require the support and gracious donations of the Starfleets and the Moffs, and he apparently spent 6-months attacking the New Republic and consolidating Imperial Forces to prove he deserved that support. Support that in the end was described as a ?tenuous alliance? with the Remnants, and ?far from universal.? "

"Tenuous" and "far from universal" regarding the warlords, some of whom may not even have joined Palpatine when he reemerged.

Regardless of the warlords, Thrawn had the rank and legitimate right to command the Imperial military, and there's no indication I've seen that suggests he committed his campaign without complete control of the "loyalist" military forces.

If you have evidence suggesting otherwise, please bring it forth

"Given that no attempt to reconvene the Senate was made I would consider this moment the divergence from explicit legal authority."

Reconvention of the Senate is irrelevant (and since it was disbanded "for the duration of the emergency"... ) in the case of the IRC's legal authority in running the Empire, because that was their job before the death of the Emperor as well.

"The de facto Regent of the Imperial State would seem to be Grand Vizier Sate Pestage, who apparently ran the day-to-day affairs of the Empire by the Battle of Hoth, and would seem the implied ruler of the Imperial State in the absence of the Emperor and Senate."

No. Pestage did not become regent, but instead simply continued to run the Empire as he had before alongside the IRC and the civil authority which persisted past Thrawn's death, keeping it relatively stable until he retired to Byss to oversee the Emperor's restrengthening. His power, and that of the other members of the IRC, was authorized by the Emperor, and simply persisted after the Emperor's death, as it should be.

"Isard appears to have superimposed herself upon the throne, with no actual implicit legal authority to support her."

She was regent, not empress. She made no bid for the throne.

"She is a warlord, albeit a loyalist."

Those two terms are mutually exclusive.

There's even apparently a belief on this board (from a thread way back in '02) that Isard was actually in contact with Palpatine after Endor. I'm unsure how true that claim is, but if it is....

"Grand Admiral Thrawn has technical command of all Imperial Forces, outside of the core.
He appears to have literal command of the loyalist forces pledged to his flag and an ability to extort material support from the fiefs not directly recognizing his command."

This is not in question.

Unless your idea of "fiefs" includes the loyalist Empire.

"The aggregation of the Imperial Remnants might have a majority of the Starfleet at its disposal, but it would seem to be an unwarranted assumption to assume those elements are all at Thrawn?s disposal."

Why? Thrawn's rank is unassailable. The military would follow him. Otherwise they would have gone warlord earlier, rather than stick with the IRC.

 

Cronus was either extremely competant, or only attacking undefended/mildly defended targets- he loses 2 VSDs at Chardaan to hastily launched fighters, which are the only two losses of that phase of the campaign. I'd hesitate to believe that anything too important was defended as shoddily as even Chardaan, which had construction workers piloting fighters.

Nothing wrong with "Corellian gunship" referring to a series of ships with different appearances and scaling. Same reasoning as trying to cite Imperial Star Destroyers as any triangle ship over 600m There appear to be at least two major variations of the corellian gunships in canon already. Larger variants are not impossible.

That aside, going by the ISB and quick measurements, even the rear of the engines is at most 1.5 Km from the bridge. The wing engine banks are about the same total distance away. It may be only one reference, but it does fit with the quote that "only Executor was this big!"

At the least, it seconds for the shockwave to travel the distance, from an explosion large enough to knock out the entire engine array and damage the entire rear third of he ship. (It reads as though the TIE bomber squadrons all exploded, but it's a bit more believable if they also managed to cause the engines to explode)

 

Sate Pestage was the leader of the Imperial Inner Circle, a direct line to the Emperor, and was described as running the day-to-day affairs of the Empire. He is explicitly referred to as the ?man responsible for keeping the Empire together? and that he ?assumed the Imperial Throne upon hearing of his Master?s death.?

Sate Pestage is the de facto Regent of the Imperial State and called, the ?new Emperor?.

Members of the Inner Circle, referred to as a ?group of Palpatine?s advisors? as well as ?Palpatine?s former advisory staff? rallied around the persona of Ars Dangor to form the ?Emperor?s Ruling Circle?.

Their prime goal was to wrest control of the Imperial State from Sate Pestage and affix their Circle as the Sovereign.

Ars Dangor, under the auspices of representing the Emperor?s Ruling Circle, issued a command recalling Admiral Zsinj from the Quelii Oversector between 1 and 8 months post-Endor.

If this command was issued before the end of the Grand Vizier?s reign it represents a likely political challenge to the ?new Emperor? and his authority.

To say likely is perhaps an understatement, Ars Dangor and the Circle planned on overthrowing Sate, actually impeached and censured him, and demanded he retire to Byss apparently ?within weeks? of his assumption of the throne.

Ysanne Isard placed herself as an intermediary between the two factions and successfully engineered Pestage?s fall. After Sate was ?killed? by Admiral and thereafter warlord Krennel the NEC describes the preceding actions on Coruscant coming to a succinct and prompt conclusion.

?On Coruscant, Ysanne Isard ruthlessly exterminated the Ruling Circle and assumed the throne in their place.?

Ysanne Isard is a Loyalist in that she represents her rule as a stewardship of the Imperial Throne and operates in recognition of the Emperor?s authority.

She makes no claim to be Empress, at least publicly, and presents herself as a Regent.

The truth is she used her status as Director of Intelligence to exterminate political rivals and seat herself as Galactic Sovereign, in the process being the architect of the assassination of Palpatine?s advisory staff.

Sate Pestage and Ars Dangor have claims to authority from their duly appointed stations, just as Grand Admiral Thrawn has authority from his.

In fact the Advisors led by Dangor are referred to as ?the surviving Imperial hierarchy?, implying legal authority.

However, if Sate Pestage, Ars Dangor, and the Inner Circle were assassinated as Thrawn seized complete totalitarian control of the ?Loyalist? Empire I doubt we could call that legal assumption of power.

Considering that Thrawn did consider himself Imperial Sovereign, and acted as such despite his protestations to the contrary, might explain why Palpatine allowed, or perhaps facilitated, Thrawn?s destruction.

You could claim Regency on behalf of Pestage or Dangor, but Isard seized power for herself, and post-4 ABY any person claiming authority over the Imperial State is a warlord, loyalist or no.

That at least seems to have been the Emperor?s view of things from Byss.

You apparently missed the point?this line of reasoning?

If they could have they would have and since they did not, they could not, and therefore the ships do not exist...

Is not logic, it is rationalization.

I posted the quotes, which made it quite clear that had the Grand Admirals united the Rebellion would have been annihilated. Had the fortress worlds been maintained and the Starfleet unified, the Rebellion faced a hopeless task of never-ending war.

The Starfleet did not mobilize against the Rebellion.

It fell back towards the Core, systematically and foolishly, but it did retreat, under orders.

It?s the deadline?

?These agents painted a picture of space that was free from Imperial dom

 

At Chardaan, they obviously try to get as many planes and pilots launched as possible - considering that they make starfighters, they have fighters simply asking to be used...

The question is who the "off-duty fighters" are who fly the ones that aren't piloted by the "construction workers". Does this mean that the defence is in the hands of reservists, Chardaan personnel who fly snubfighters when "off-duty"? Does Chardaan have a lot of Starfighter Command personnel on leave? Or does this mean that front-line pilots are rotated to guard the shipyards when they're "off-duty"?

It's not entirely clear, but since some of the fighters are "old" as well as "new", is it possible that what we're seeing here is the defending starfighter squadrons assigned to Chardaan (however they're crewed), supported by "construction workers" flying newly-built planes constructed at the facility...?

You're right, in principle. It's not impossiple that there's a larger ~225m anti-starfighter "gunship" design of some sort. All we really know is that it's "Corellian" like the others, and "cylindrical"....

That said, I'd maybe account for at least some of the visual differences between gunship depictions by "impressionism", and the three gunships at Nal Hutta are certainly "smaller than the Corvettes", which had already been described "smaller" than Wedge's escort frigate...

I do take your point... but it is ambiguous, and it's outweighed by the repeated, unabiguous "8km" references...
'

The whole thing doesn't make much sense, if we're thinking about an SSD with multiple banks of physically seperate "stardrive engines" (to use the EGtVV's term for even the ones on the 8km version)...

One thing we do know is that the armoured bulkhead that Callista attacks is explicitly "behind the Knight Hammer's powerful bank of engines", showing that the TIE bay is to the rear of the engines...

Three options: Knight Hammer represents the design in The Imperial Sourcebook with just one bank of engines at the stern (even this I think is silly, though it may have been what KJA was working with); or in fact the damage to the ship was actually much less severe than computers thought; or - and this is probably the best idea, IMHO - the "bank of engines" that Callista targeted represented something seperate to the individual "engines" visible on the hull, just as there's a difference on the ISD between the power-generation systems and the massive particle thrusters...

Thoughts?

 

So now the phrase Star Destroyer applies to second-rate troop-transports and patrol ships?

This theory is officially without any merit?.

The Imperial Heavy Cruiser hull, the Vindicator, mounts 20 Quad Laser Cannons on a basic Immobilizer 418, quad Laser Cannons that have 4D damage potentials.
The Acclamator Assault Ship mounts 12-Quad Turbolaser mounts rated at 200 Gt each, meaning it outputs Teraton yields and can withstand Teraton yields.
The Victory-class Star Destroyer has 10 Quad 5D Turrets and 40 Dual 2D turrets.

The Mon Calamari Star Cruisers that make up the Heavy Cruiser backbone of the Rebel Alliance Navy sport 48 XV9 Turbolasers, 4D damage potential.

A pair of Vindicator Star Cruisers would mount 40x4D turrets and 2 Star fighter squadrons, while a single Mc80 would mount 48x4D turrets and 3 Star fighter squadrons.

Even if it required a three to one Cruiser advantage for the Imperial Starfleet they would need less than 3,000 Vindicator Star Cruisers to overwhelm the entire Rebel Alliance Starfleet.

The Imperial Starfleet, even your personally dilapidated fanon, has more than enough firepower to wipe out the entire Rebel Alliance 8-10 times over. (Assuming they had ~1,000 Star Cruisers themselves?)

The point is that the Starfleet did not mobilize a full-scale front against the Rebellion and force a conventional fleet battle.

No, McEwok, it is not.
The Rebellion renamed themselves the Alliance of Free Planets ?within days of the Battle of Endor? and then subsequently spent ?several months? engaging in diplomacy.
The actual date of Zsinj?s defection is unknown, the NEC simply places it within the first 6-months of 4 ABY, it must have occurred before 8-months into 4 ABY because Isard exterminated the ERC, and must have happened after the declaration of the AFP and during the subsequent months of diplomacy.

That gives us a minimum of 1 month and a maximum of 8 months into 4 ABY, likely within the reign of Pestage, not an exact date.

As far as I know we don?t have a canonically set date, and it really doesn?t matter.

The point is that Ars Dangor and the Emperor?s Ruling Circle were issuing orders on behalf of themselves and their authority at a time when Pestage had assumed the Throne.

Cracken?s Threat Dossier: - What page?
Based in the regions they formerly governed during the reign of the Empire, these warlords began gathering men and resources for the inevitable conflict with the former Rebel Alliance.

Where in this statement is a planned couter-offensive mentioned?

The Empire was retreating towards the core, fortifying entire systems in a defensive posture, and did not launch a full-scale counter-offensive, and did not undermine the Rebellion?s beachhead in the Core.

I remember no statement about Imperial Counter-Offensives retaking massive amounts of the Inner and Outer Rim...

Once again?you need proof they can be and are what you are suggesting?.

As far as we are aware it is the only difference.