Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Since "some people" seem to have a reading comprehension problem:

On the Warfare thread last year:

This book is for telling stories and anecdotes, while adding new info and profiles in the narrative. Minimalists are gonna get those stories they've demanded from ship-classes that are bigger than their precious ISD.

When gathering ships from all over the galaxy, like Palpatine was said to do for his Operation Shadow Hand, there's gonna be ships from areas never visited in the lore or with histories we don't know of.

There's literally tens of millions of Imperial solar systems, more millions of inhabited systems the Empire has a presence in, whether it's hunting oppositional forces or establishing military colonies.
Not all the Rendili Dreadnaughts nor all the ISDs are going to be in every one of them.

Has there been enough stories yet that would add up to 25,000 unique ISDs shown? No.
Why then expect everything to be covered by now?
That's obviously what the minimalist agenda pertains to be in these debates and I'm getting sick and tired of this passive-aggressive posting.
No, not every system is gonna use the same two capital ship classes.
No, the Empire isn't going to field the same units all over the galaxy. Yet this is somehow expected by minimalists, since those two are the only things (besides starfighters) that they care about.

WEG is outdated material beyond occasional name-drops, this isn't the mid-90s, where the Rendili Dreadnaught was said to be the largest CW-era warship before the Victory-class. Lucasfilm shot that down, they're gonna keep changing canon regardless of minimalist complaints.

 

Alright gents, lets simmer down a bit. This thread has room for everyones viewpoints.

I have seen these same minimalist/maximalist arguments a thousand times before over the past eight years, so just remember that we can all politely agree to disagree. Having lived through the SSD Wars and some downright nasty arguments between both sides several years back, I sure as hell don't want to see that kinda tone come up again.

This post isn't directed at any one individual. It serves as a general reminder that we are all fans who are passionate about this stuff and love it, but we need to make sure it never, ever, gets personal.

--Adm. Nick

 

the very fact someone would say there aren't many new Legacy-novel ships proves my point; it only seems that way due to the lack of adequate pictures, RPG stats, and reference coverage

Legacy novels to date have at least 33 new and unpictured classes of warships: 17 fighters/small combatants and 16 capital ships/carriers; also at least 6 support craft

SMALL COMBATANT--17
A-10 interceptor
Aleph-class ?Twee?
Bes?uliik
Blade-36
Eta-5
Fondorian fighter
Kyr?galaar-class
Owool interceptor
Skipray 24r Blastboat
Starhunter
T-65XJ6
T-65XJ7
TIE Recon ?Blur?
Tra?kad
Verpine Stinger
Vyyrhawk fighter-bomber
YT-5100 Shriek-class bomber

CAPITAL and CARRIER--16
Bothan frigate
Chasemaster-class frigate
Corellian Dreadnaught
CSA gunship
Cutlass-class corvette
Fondorian cruiser
Fondorian destroyer
Galactic-class carrier
heavy carrier Blue Diver
Hutt light cruiser
Javelin fighter
Megador
Nargi-class frigate
picket destroyer Resolute
Scimitar-class frigate
Turbulent-class Star Destroyer

SUPPORT--6
EE-104 FishEye stealth ship
Freebooter-class transport
Hapan landing craft
Kondo-class assault shuttle
Nonvideor-class minelayer
scout flyer

Clearly, it is unrealistic to expect Warfare alone to illustrate all of these; a Guide to Warships or 'Starship Spotter' counterpart is needed; or maybe a comic series tie-in for this era

There are many people's tastes that would find a treat in this era; we've got new KDY, Mon Cal, Mandalorian, SFS, CEC, and CSA designs; plus some oddball alien contributions from Bothans, Wookiees, and yes, Hutts!

and we've never even seen the Fondor Shipyards design aesthetic, so would provide a lot of free range for a creative artist

 

It's all about reading the author's own words and not keep asking redundant questions. I get tired of it, just as I get tired of the constant goalpost-moving. I've read these discussions for long enough to see the same repeats, just in new forms.

I swear, first it was this design-argument that had jumps from the Rendili Dreadnaught < Victory-class Star Destroyer < Imperial-class Star Destroyer < Super-class Star Destroyer that WEG introduced. Ignoring the fact that the company didn't bother writing about older material like Giel's flagship or most of the ships from the Marvel comics at all. Nor some of the ships from the early books, like the Wennis, for instance.

Then TPM came out, things started being added to the canon and then the argument was that "oh, the Lucrehulk-class isn't a true warship", which was followed by AOTC and the Acclamator-class. Then came ROTS and the related lore where the Banking Clan had Munificent-class frigates long before the CW started and that argument petered out.

Then came stuff like the KOTOR comics and the tv show and we suddenly got an influx of designs that were these mystical ships that were never supposed to exist before the Executor, because there was only supposed to be a magic jump between the Imperial-class and the Executor. Things started diversifying a lot more than the first 20 years of SW starship lore.

Now, when an author is saying there will be some fleshing out of bigger designs, "some people" apparently can't take the hint and wait. I guess books like Slave Ship that mention "destroyers and battle cruisers" in passing weren't good enough to warrant anyone's attention, so that's why "some people" are still passive-aggressively posting about how they don't see any references to larger-than-ISD ships. Enough already.

 

It already does every nth page

 

Pretty much like the A-9 I would guess

Ugly as sin from the way the book describes them ^^

Propely a lot less pretty YT freighter ^^


@ Rest
X-Wings and TIEs propely same old. Alien fighters/ship would be great though I image SFS/CEC/Mon Cal/KDY stuff will likely look along the same lines as we have seen before.

 

A new Separatist ship, of Umbaran design. Strange that it's in The General concept art. Was it in the background of the airbase?
I was thinking the same thing.
I think the design will be featured more prominently next episode, as their goal is to take out a "separatist supply ship".

Fun fact: Like the Malevolence, this is a recycled and modified unused episode 3 ship design.

Some nice Militia starfighters would be great happy the Naboo can?t be the only ones that have custom build fighters.
Certainly, but I think it is fair to say that most militias seem to use a fairly standard array of designs, presumably because it is easier to just buy some weapons than make them yourself.

 

Judging from your general conduct you seem to want to be included in that group.

Let?s hope so otherwise whats the point of the book.

Or just droping 2 TIEs and a Shuttle along with a not to popular governor.

Dreads and ImpStar just seem to very common.

You need to stop seeing Conspiracies and secret agendas behind everything.

Most properly don?t even get capital ships.

Why should it? It makes do with what it has, which just happens to include lots and lots of Dreads and ISDs.

What gives you such an idea?

If you start counting WEG name drops the occasional fades very quickly against a lot of way more obscure sources, like Marvel, older novels, easy reading guids etc.

 

WEG itself already pointed at other big ship designs in the past. And lots of other stuff has been thrown arround way more then WEG stuff, which made extrem efforts to keep the Clone Wars stuff vague.

Or anyone elses.

Then ignore it or move on.

Everyone was told to ignore Marvel back in the days and what was there to add? It was a one time used dagger shaped armed transport that nearly got shredded by a TIE fighter. For all we know WEG actually did hint at the vessel with references to big Imperial freighters/transports.

WEG Centrality guide would properly have included it.

Öh one is a huge freighter (WEG actually gave as bigger Transports then the Lucrehulk as well) and the other a troop transport ship, used direcly in beging the Clone Wars.

Its a armed comm ship, not in Republic use, plus they don't hold up all that well for their size. Plus read the WEG references to the Dread they are all vague and allow lenience, just like with the Z-95er as the "starfighter of choice for the defenders of the Old Republic"

What old, big warships that fought in the day of yore that the WEG guids mentioned on many occasions?

Says who? Sources just agree that there was no point in a ship like the Executor, because small ship do just fine.

 

Slave ship was such a bad read some vague comments about ships certainly did not help it. Though the note that Bounty Hunter freighters/patrol ships can shoot through battleship armour was rather intresting.

I think you should read up on the definition of passive aggressive

 

Which is actually also what Naboo kind of does, as its designs and most ship components come from Nubia. But then we also need some Z-95 love so lets hope Jason mentions them in use

 

First off, great list Cilghal. I had forgotten how many new starships have been introduced over the course of the post-NJO novels.

Of the captial ships you list above, I think the ones that I would love to learn more about are the Corellian Dreadnaught and the Bothan frigate. It was a shame that both classes didn't get used more in LOTF (I would also say this in general of the Confederation-GA war, but I digress). In the case of the Corellian Dreadnaught, it was described as egg shaped. That doesn't strike me as too CEC in design, so I hope that it we ever get an image for it that it incorporates some of the hallmarks of CEC starships for some nice visual continuity.

In the case of the Bothan frigate, I would really like to see a design that incorporates the design asthetics of the Bothan Assault Cruiser. Not only was the BAC a handsome design, but if the Bothan frigate was built along similar design/shape (albeit on a smaller scale), it would be nice confirmation of what the Bothan style is when building warships. There was a great fan rendering of the Bothan frigate online a few years ago. I can't find the link, but it really captured the look and feel of what a Bothan frigate should look like.

On the Galactic Alliance side, I really do want to see what both the Galactic-class battle carrier and Mon Cal heavy carrier look like. I know that some fans aren't as interested in seeing yet another KDY wedge shaped warship or another lumpy Mon Cal craft, but in the hands of a good artist both vessels could be protrayed in a very new and exciting light. In my mind, they would have the basic hallmarks of a KDY or the Mon Cal shipyards, but also have their own "modern" features that would provide a degree of uniqueness.

Fondorian designs would be rather interesting to see. I have long wondered if Fondor even has its own design style. Fondor seems to be capable of building or maintaining numerous types of warships. We see Fondor build KDY designs like the Executor-class, build and/or repair Mon Cal cruisers (Marvel SW), and build Star Destroyers for the New Republic (exact class unknown). Fondor coudl simply be an all purpose yard that is capable of building warships on license from other builders. Such a business plan could be very, very profitable for them.

--Adm. Nick

 

And yet here you are, doing exactly that.

I've also noticed that virtually every time that Nick steps in when he senses that the fleet discussions are taking an unproductive turn, you always feel the need to have to get one more post in, instead of letting it go.

I'm sure Jason and McEwok will do a great job with the EGTW, include all sources from the early WEG material to the ISCes and everything else.

Take the "hint" yourself and wait; and next time, I suggest taking Nick's advice and move on.

 

http://www.swagonline.net/files/images/Bothan%20Assault%20Frigate_01.preview.jpg

This one? Looks rather nice though the bridge strikes me as kind of "retro" ^^ but then New Fleet ships also have similar bridge sections.

Hmm... might really just be MCs with bigger hangars or ImpStars with bigger Hangars and broader hull.

Dident the old Wizards Article about the Solo class combat freighter include a picture? Though of course armed ore freighters might look nothing like their warships.

 

That was a strange departure from their normal design philosophy. I wish they had actually been used elsewhere in the series...

Here's a question - since the shipyards at Bothawui were established, do you think they were producing capital ships early in the NR, or that the shipyards were constructed much later? (I also suspect that the Assault Frigates were adopted by the NR because of the influence of a certain Bothan politician...)
Oddly enough, the ship is described as being constructed at the Tallaan shipyards.

The former I believe was described as a Star Destroyer as long as the original ISD, but 50% broader in width.

Well, they were apparently members of the Techno Union during the Clone Wars (albeit minor ones, apparently, that contributed little to the war) and the starship corp Zentine Dynamics had shipyards there during the KOTOR era (they made the Ministry-class shuttle). During the NR era, they appear to be the main shipyards for the REC.

The Solo-class was said to be constructed as a joint effort between SoroSuub and the REC, at Fondor - which matches earlier sources describing REC vessels being produced there as well.

 

Hmm? I always imaged them as kind of looking like huge Thrustships and yes would have been nice to have at least one escape and give the ConFeds some much needed profile during the series, which they so badly lacked.

Properly after the whole Battle of Bothawui mess that nearly got the race wiped out, because they seemed to lack a proper fleet during that event to defend the world. Under the Empire they also just had a few small capships and Y-Wings, though we know at least Borssk had a Dread or two under his control.

Assault Cruiser? ^^" And most certainly a "Bothan Connection".

Hmm.... Bothan Tapani frigate Hybrid?

Ah thx somehow I recalled them having also been designed by Fondor. Sadly all the Wotc HP stuff is down

 

An interesting new unit was the ships of the Themian navy from one of the UK CW comics. They weren't starfighters, but gunships/corvettes.

 

Are you sure? ^^ Because going by the window the Admiral must be somewhere else, as the Themian ships have diffrent windows then his command room.

 

While it would obviously take time to build up substantial shipbuilding capabilities, I am pretty sure that capital ship construction is a brand new thing for teh Bothans. IIRC, the original SOTG mentions that the Bothans ordered these cruisers in the aftermath of the Caamas Crisis. Bothan Space has always been wealthy, so it is possible that trillions of credits were shoveled into making the BAC's in short order.

Of course, the only way for the Bothans to get a return on their investment is outside sales, hence why once Borsk Fey'lya becomes Chief of State the New Republic Defense Force starts purchasing Assault Cruisers.

I had forgotten that bit about the Bothan frigates being Tallaani in construction. I suppose that the design could be completely different from the BAC. The frigates were brand new purchases made at the start of the war, so it is probable that the Bothans bought whatever native frigate design was available.

--Adm. Nick

 

Just reviewed the Atlas, and noticed Bothawui was marked on the 4 and 5 AE maps as being one of the NR's main shipyards...

 

Wait.

What?

McE's contributing to the canon, now?

AWESOME!!!

 

Jason and McEwok make a decent combo, keeping the end result from being too maximilist or minimalist. I hope.

Crazy insane theory regarding the Corellian Dreadnoughts. What other large capital ships do we know of that are egg shaped?

[image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051020030335/starwars/images/9/9a/BulwarkBattlecruiser.JPG]

Perhaps they were not homegrown ships, but say Bulwark-class built locally? They do seem to have the strength and firepower to be included in the Dreadnought category...

As for the idea of maintenence, that makes an excellent argument about the sudden lack of larger ships after Endor. ISDs have enough maintenence issues that the fragmentation of the Empire breaks up the logistics badly. High Maintenence ships like the ISD, which devoted about 30% of it's complement (13,900) to maintenance alone, would likely break down more and more as parts and trained crews became more scarce. Larger ships, many of which seem to be older Clone Wars built ones, likely have even worse problems trying to keep running. The Executor-class, on the other hand, has a comparatively small crew for its size, thus making them highly prized, far more than just their firepower and capabilities alone. On the other hand, we could justify many of the Super Star destroyer losses and poor preformance to undertrained or undersized crew, and poor maintenance, especially Lusankya which was canonically short on parts for repair. As parts and crew start to be in short supply, you end up with the result you see in the EU- Executor class ships are highly prized, and Imperial class vessels accompanied with smaller ships.

With the Empire fragmenting, many of the ships in between were likely lost to combat or simply cannibalized for crew and parts for more efficient vessels. You see fragmentation starting early after Endor, and a lot of major assets were lost early in this process- Battle of Corellia for one. Zsinj takes a major chunk of the galaxy, and seems to have a well established network of construction and resupply, which gave him a major advantage. Then he is killed, and Kuat falls to the NR, making the situation critical. Palpatine is secretly recalling ships to the Deep Core, where Byss has the yards to resupply and repair them. Thrawn is left with practically nothing available, most ships needed for Garrison duties, thus his push to stealing and buying ships, and then the Katana fleet. Suddenly he dies, and another major yard, bilbringi is lost.
Palpatine returning sees the reappearance of larger fleet elements. His leadership and byss to supply them keeps them running, and you see much of the galaxy fall to him in a matter of months. World Devastators, besides their destructive potential, anr mobile factories, making them extremely valuable. But he is killed again, the World Devastators are lost, and Byss destroyed with a good chunk of fleet in orbit. Everything falls apart then, and the NR feels the threat of larger ships is over, until the Intimidator shows up out of nowhere, provoking them to keep the Lusankya in service, find and capture Guardian and start work on their own heavy ship, the far more efficient and self sufficient Viscount

 

The funny thing was, the Luskanya was a variant designed to operate on its own - so the others were even worse off.

The entry on the Guardian from WBC noted that the NR had managed to learn and exploit a number of weaknesses discovered in the Executor-class design - while they were still a major threat, they weren't apparently the overwhelming force they were presented as during the Rebellion Era.

I'm guessing that the Imperials were severely overstretched during the Dark Empire era because they expected the World Devastators to be providing virtually unlimited resources and stepped up production accordingly... I'm beginning to think that during DE2 and EE they were it a lot worse shape than they appeared, and had to finish off the NR quickly before they collapsed - explaining why they managed to lose so much of their territory overnight once Palpatine died for good, despite the IRC attempting to hold on to as much as possible.
With the Viscount, I'd like to see more of the "Star Defender" design philosophy - it makes a good justification for a large capital ship for the NR.

The cat's been out of that particular bag for a while. Where have you been?

 

To be fair, most sources said largest Pre Clone Wars ship in the Republic, except for the occasional mistake that said it was Clone Wars era.


Also, since the Republic only had a police force, that just may be true. Who knows what rules limited the size of ships in the Judicial Fleet.

I'm not exactly in the minimalist camp. I have my own ideas about the Imperial Fleet that would make any so called "minimalist" cringe, but I have to say that in the end I didn't feel too much that was said about the Clone Wars era before the prequels came out, was contradicted. Far from it, most of it ended up being used in some way in Clone Wars stories.

Saying that all that was used were occasional name drops, isn't exactly completely truthful.

On the other hand, I think the prequels have shown that we are not dealing with something like the Star Trek universe. This needs to be acknowledged as well. I think that can be done while also respecting established facts from older sources as much as possible.

 

As for the idea of maintenence, that makes an excellent argument about the sudden lack of larger ships after Endor.

Atlas and sources before it went more along the lines of them mostly getting destroyed during the Post-Zsinj death camapings and before that, or as you mentioned leeched to Byss. ^^


ISDs have enough maintenence issues that the fragmentation of the Empire breaks up the logistics badly. High Maintenence ships like the ISD, which devoted about 30% of it's complement (13,900) to maintenance alone, would likely break down more and more as parts and trained crews became more scarce.

Might be a factor but ImpStars are build for some 6 years of indigent operations, they should not break down that quickly, though of course lack of maintenance and battle damages that might not be as easy to fix as before would take their toll.


On the other hand, we could justify many of the Super Star destroyer losses and poor preformance to undertrained or undersized crew, and poor maintenance,

Might be but pre Endor models already die in rather inglorious ways and ships like the Aggressor and Guardian already got butchered a few months after Endor, where the resource drain can?t have been that massive yet.

especially Lusankya which was canonically short on parts for repair.

Actually the Lusi would be the only ship in Isards fleet that would not have that problem, as she never deployed her for convoy duty and before that did not see battle except for her departure from Coruscant, she should be mint fresh. Unless just keeping the ship in Orbit or before that under ground alone would already tax it massively, which would just seem strange.

As parts and crew start to be in short supply, you end up with the result you see in the EU- Executor class ships are highly prized, and Imperial class vessels accompanied with smaller ships.

Hmm? the only warlord who actually seemed to use his SSD kind of offensively was Zsinj who sent it raiding, always striking where he would be clearly superior and running when he needed to, properly aware what happened to Drommel when he went on a raiding spree with the Guardian. Kaine kept the Reaper at home, as did the Duskhan League aside from attacking a few underdefended colonies in their neighborhood.
They always struck me as more of a symbolic thing to display Imperial might and serve as siege platform. Zsinj would for example would have been just as dangerous without the Fist and with a command fleet like Thrawn, though he might have had more problems keeping his fleet together.


Palpatine returning sees the reappearance of larger fleet elements.

Actually it ?sees? only his 2 command ships, the Allegiance (whatever she may actually be) and new super weapons. Sedriss who rules the Empire after Palpatine blowing up the Eclipse is back to what looks like a ImpStar (and who can really tell in Dark Empire) as command ship.

Lusankya in service
Refitted as medical laboratory

Viscount
Also intended for crisis intervention and catastrophe support, which I imaging would be the only to get funding for a thing like it

PS: They do seem to have the strength and firepower to be included in the Dreadnought category...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Hole-class_salvage_dreadnought