Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

I always got the impression that capital-scale cargo ships - as well as passenger and exploration ships - are one of those things that is supposed to be common but we never see for some reason. After all, some rebel ships have origin stories as converted civilian ships, but we never see them as civilian ships.

Come to think of it, passenger ships in general seem kind of lacking. There aren't many in the Wook, and most of those are luxury ships for the super rich. It might only be with a recent episode of Rebels that get a look at the kind of thing an average person might get a flight on, the 747 of Star Wars.
No, wait, I think Galaxies had some as well.

 

Things like the Queen of the Empire seemed to be pretty common passenger liner, it had a for the rich sections, but in general seemed to be more for people on a budget.

 

Have we seen anything like this?


Art by Ryan Wolfe

 

FFG introduced the Indulgent-class starliners said to be the size of heavy cruisers - although those were specifically said to be for the wealthy.

 

This week's Star Wars Official Fact File (issue 44)'s vehicle article is Imperial Star Destroyer.


Imperial Star Destroyer
In the depths of space, the vast, arrowhead wedge of an Imperial Star Destroyer symbolised the Empire's dominion of terror throughout the galaxy.

In order to enforce the will of Emperor Palpatine across the galactic reaches, the Imperial Starfleet required a vessel of unprecedented size and power. Such a starship would be capable of subduing cities, perhaps even entire continents and whole worlds, without the deployment of a massive fleet. Fortunately for the Imperial Navy, such a ship already existed. Built in small numbers from the opening year of the Clone Wars, the Imperator-class Star Destroyer was the replacement for the rather rushed Victory-class model. Designed by Lira Blissex, daughter of Walex Blissex who created the Victory-class among others, the Imperator-class showed early promise and was quickly decided on as the Star Destroyer of choice for the Empire. This was in no small measure because of its earlier limited deployment - it didn't have the association with the Republic that the Venator-class did. Production of the Republic's warships ceased, and Kuat Drive Yards went into full production of the re-named Imperial I-class Star Destroyer.

A Vast Fleet
By the fall of the Empire, it was estimated that well over 25,000 such Star Destroyers had been constructed and put into service, along with many thousands of Imperial II-class ships - the even more powerful successor to the Imperial I-class that started its service a little before the Battle of Yavin. Over half of this massive fleet remained in constant reserve in the Imperial core systems, actively defending the Empire's strategic and military assets. Each sector of the Imperial sphere was typically assigned a Sector Group of 24 Star Destroyers, maintaining the Emperor's rule through the threat of military force.

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The enormous size of later superweapons such as the Death Star dwarfed the Star Destroyers, making it easy to forget just how big they were. A full crew numbered 37,085 life forms, comprising 27,850 enlisted men and 9235 commissioned officers; 275 personnel were required just to ash as gunners for the ship's scores of turbolaser batteries, and to run the ship at even minimum capacity, a skeleton crew of around 5000 was required. A further 9700 infantry were aboard for ground operations.

The vessel was equipped with 60 Taim & Bak XX-9 turbolaser cannons arranged in three sets of four batteries on the forward, port and starboard arcs, and 60 Borstel NK-7 ion cannons arranged with four batteries aiming forward, three each on the port and starboard hull, and two facing aft. These were only the primary batteries; the ship carried many smaller batteries of other turbolaser and ion cannon variants.

Because of their size, Star Destroyers were not particularly manoeuvrable and took a long time to respond to steering input, tending to continue in a straight line for some time. This could leave them at a disadvantage in a fire-fight, where they would be dependent on their shields and firepower, with smaller, more agile fighters able to run rings around them.

With a relatively leisurely sublight speed of 60 mglt, the Imperial Star Destroyer operated a Class 2 hyperdrive for interstellar travel.

For space superiority missions, the vessel carried a full wing of TIE craft - six squadrons of 12 - comprising TIE Fighters, TIE Interceptors and TIE Bombers. Other craft on board included eight Lambda-class shuttles, Skipray blastboats, Gamma-class assault shuttles, Sentinel-class stormtrooper transports, and assault gunboats.

Star Destroyer Design
The Imperial Star Destroyer's armour-plated hull bristled with devastating armaments.

To defend itself, the Imperial Star Destroyer sported a tough hull built from titanium-reinforced alusteel. A pair of Kuat Drive Yards' ISD-72x shield generators were housed inside two spherical domes on the coral surface of the ship's bridge tower. Although these easily-targeted sphere were obvious to any attacker, starfighters intent on bringing these shields down first had to overcome the Star Destroyer's formidable weapons array. The primary offensive systems were a series of 60 Taim & Bak XX9 turbolaser emplacements dotted around the dorsal and ventral hull of the ship; these guns were supplemented with an equal number of Borstel NK-7 ion cannons which could neutralise a target vessel without destroying it. Numerous other turbolaser and ion cannon variants supplemented this already terrifying destructive power.

While the vessel's primary function was ship-to-ship warfare with other capital craft, the turbolasers were equipped with a LeGrange computer-assisted targeting system for use against smaller starfighters. The distinctive dome shape on the ventral hull, constructed from an alloy of durasteel and carbonite, housed the ship's powerful Sienar Flight System I-a2b solar ionisation reactor; the star-like core provided ample energy for all the vessel's systems as well as a sizeable reserve.

Intimidation
The offensive tactical power of an Imperial Star Destroyer was incredible, and it is clear to see why the appearance of such vessels was universally feared throughout known space. A formidable fighting force on its own, the Imperial-class Star Destroyer also maintained a veritable armada of support ships and a battle-ready army of stormtroopers. For planetside operations, a contingent of 9700 ground troops could be disembarked from the ship via 12 armed landing barges, along with 20 AT-AT walkers and 30 AT-ST scout walkers. A contingent of hyperdrive-capable deep space probes with Arakyd Viper probots was also available to the command crew.

With an alternative arrangement of material and equipment, the Imperial-class Star Destroyer could deploy a pre-fabricated modular garrison complex with a complement of 800 troops. In auxiliary bays, a Star Destroyer could carry an additional 36,000 metric tons of cargo.

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Although the shield that they generated protected them from long-range fire, the prominent domes of the ISD-72x shield generators were a tempting target for close-attack fighters. Their destruction would render the ship much more vulnerable.

The ship's many weapons required a crew of 275 gunners to operate. The gun crews had a surprising amount of autonomy - bad judgement by a single member of one of them was instrumental in allowing the Death Star plans to fall into the hands of the Rebel Alliance.

The enormous size of a Star Destroyer prevented it from landing or docking with most other vessels. Ship-to-ship or ship-to-ground transfers were normally handled by one of the Star Destroyer's complement of Lambda-class shuttles.

Although smaller, more agile ships could outrun and outmanoeuvre a Star Destroyer, it was easily capable of overhauling and subduing most of the vessels pressed into service by members of the Rebel Alliance.

Diagram
(Turbolasers and Concussion-Missile Launchers are shown on the neck of the bridge tower, and on the main hull. Atmospheric Manoeuvring Surfaces are shown)

Of these factoids, the bit that seems most new, is the mention that the Imperator-class entered service in the very first year of the Clone Wars (the Date stamp in the article says 22 BBY), as well as the estimate of "well over 25,000" being for the Imperial I-class alone, along with "many thousands" of Imperial II-class vessels.

Most of the rest of the data is pretty standard for the WEG era.

Unlike with the Mon Cal Cruiser & Executor articles, the labelled diagrams are not line drawings from The Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels, but instead either a photo or the Fractalsponge pics (looks to me, more like the Fractalsponge pic, given the sharpness of the edges). The image on the front page is definitely a computer model - looks like the Fractalsponge one.

 

They remind me of the cargo ship from Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight. Sulon Star I believe.

 

Nah, I think the Sulon Star looked more like a cross between a whale and a zeppelin. I don't think these ones resemble anything seen yet but probably seem closest to the Freighter Type K.

 

Very interesting, thanks for the info. It would always be nice to see more new information, especially with regards to its full weapons package, at least for me. The "well over 25,000" certainly got my attention, I like the vagueness. Even better with the fact that it is separate from the the Imperial-II sub class.


Combine that with some Tector-class Star Destroyers, and a bunch of shorter run 1,000 - 2,000 meter Star Destroyer classes, then I might be close to getting happy with the size of the Imperial fleet.

 

Nice to see battery numbers for those 60 weapons, but they still don't match up to the model at all...

 

I'm guessing that there's trench guns, and guns on the top and bottom sides, that are part of the sixty, and that the port and starboard guns only represent some of them.

Even in canon, "60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons" is the figure used (Rebels Visual Guide).

Oddly, the diagram uses what was usually labelled the Imperial-II (small guns, that look like octets, rather than large doublets). Given that the (specifically identified as an Imperial I) Star Destroyer in the Rebels Visual Guide has the same octets - maybe the Devastator in ANH does not represent a standard Imperial I anymore?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WatsonianVersusDoylist

"ANH Model was revised" might be a Doylist answer.

 

Sadly, even LFL forgot the turret guns when describing the ISD-I. So much for being fanboys of physical FX models and kitbash designs.

 

"unprecedented size and power" - ever heard of Lucrehulk-class battleships, Subjugator-class cruisers and Providence-class dreadnoughts? And that is only the stuff, that isn't Legends.

"capable of subduing cities, perhaps even entire continents and whole worlds, without the deployment of a massive fleet" - "the shield is strong enough to repel any bombardement" (General Veers, TESB).

"While the vessel's primary function was ship-to-ship warfare with other capital craft, the turbolasers were equipped with a LeGrange computer-assisted targeting system for use against smaller starfighters." - you don't shoot at starfighters with turbolasers, that is, what the point-defence-cannons are for. Also remember ANH "We have counted thirty Lord Vader, but they are so small and agile, that our turbolaser can't hit them."

"The ship's many weapons required a crew of 275 gunners to operate. The gun crews had a surprising amount of autonomy - bad judgement by a single member of one of them was instrumental in allowing the Death Star plans to fall into the hands of the Rebel Alliance. - ????? Is this about the gunner aboard Devastator, who didn't fire with on the escape-pod with R2-D2 and C-3PO aboard?

Aside from that the usual bantha-poodoo about 60 Taim&Bak XX9 turbolasers and "two shield-generator domes atop the command-tower", although the bit about numbers is grin-worthy.

 

"Unprecedented size and power" may be for a line warship rather than a command ship or converted cargo ship. Sure - the others are bigger - but they're not fielded in tens of thousands - and they usually act as command ships (the Malevolence is more of a superweapon).

Which is repeated in the aforesaid Rebels Visual Guide - the first book with "canon stats" so to speak.

In various TCW episodes, we see Venators shooting at enemy starfighters with their main port and starboard turrets. Sometimes they even hit them.

 

Sorry for the random question, but sometimes I wonder how long it takes to design a warship. The way things are these days, even with only the movies and TCW and maybe direct TCW-related sources, in the first year of the Clone Wars sounds like you've got Acclamators, Venator-class, Victory-class and Imperator-class Star Destroyers? Well, Imperators were only around in limited numbers during the Clone Wars, and Venators were shunted aside due to their association with the Jedi and the Republic, and the Victory was too flawed or wasn't big enough.

I know Acclamators were built for the Grand Army originally, which is why they were ready by the Battle of Geonosis, but it seems silly to say the Victory was rushed, and what, the Imperator launched a month later, all in the first year of the Clone Wars?

I thought there used to be a gradual progression from Acclamator to Venator to Imperator during the Clone Wars, with the Victory-class as a parallel line, but guess that's idea outdated by now?

I'm probably just making too much of a few details. And for saying Imperators were supposedly around during the Clone Wars, would have been nice to see them fighting in some actual battles against Separatist ships, especially considering how many of those ships were upscaled in TCW. Though TCW in general neglected fleet battles later on. Does the Lucrehulk still count as a battleship or major Confederacy ship, since TCW made the Trade Federation officially "neutral"? Well, they're present at the Battle of Coruscant of course, but I half expect they'll be edited out in some future special edition of Episode III.

 

There were "myriads" of Lucrehulks according to "Cloak of Deception" and considering their size and weapon carried a late-clone-war Lucrehulk would have easily been equal to 4-5 ISDs. Aside from that nowhere is said, that the quote refers to "line warships" at the exclusion of everything else, that came before.

Changes nothing, that it is a repeat of the same bantha-poodoo we've got fed for the last twenty years. So what is ANH with its model of Devastator in it? Legends, because it contradicts your precious Rebels Visual Guide? And do the ISDs from the show even adhere to whats written in the Guide?

Most of those instances they were also shooting at CIS-capital ships at the time and probably got lucky hits once in a while.

 

In The Essential Guide to Warfare, I think that was the theme, at least.

Until TCW and its tie-in novels (which placed Venators in the first few months of the Clone Wars - Venators were portrayed as being introduced fairly late. In Republic Commando: Order 66, for example, the Venator fleet at Coruscant in ROTS is portrayed as something that had been kept secret - with its arrival coming as a complete surprise.

I think the (public) idea was that Nute Gunray was a renegade, who left the Trade Federation and took a bunch of its ships with him. I know that Lucrehulks are all over the first 3 seasons of TCW.

Or - it could be a case of "outdated model - don't take appearance literally".

It's like the Tyrant in TESB changing from "Devastator-type" to "Avenger-type" through the ion cannon sequence - we don't need to presume that the ship is capable of shapeshifting, after all.

I have no particular attachment to the Visual Guide book - the point I'm trying to make is - according to the "new canon" announcement - modern material, like for Rebels, books included, are exactly as valid as the movies themselves - it's all one canon - no more levels.

 

That was an accident, unfortunately, that has propagated through canon, from old to new.
Curtis Saxton, who wrote Incredible Cross Sections: ROTS and AOTC, wanted to get in his name for the Imperial-class - the Imperator - so in the description of the Venator he mentioned that the first Imperators were already being constructed (and would be renamed Imperial-class after the Empire was formed). At the time the ISDs had never been shown outside of a decade prior to ANH, and it was the VSDs that were clearly supposed to be the prior Star Destroyer design; but it was there in print; of course, the intent was that the earliest ISDs were coming out at the very end of the Clone Wars, because that's when the Venators were assumed to also be coming out. The Victory-class was said to have the first prototypes mid-war. So, still workable.
Unfortunately, the Venators were showing up in the animated series from the beginning, and the early series was explicitly said to be in the first year of the war - so, the Imperators were dragged back with the Venators to the very beginning.

Filoni revealed at Celebration that Lucas decided early during the series that the Trade Federation should no longer be an active, open participant of the Separatist Alliance; he half-jokingly said that Lucas would do just that for an ROTS Special Edition.

 

Technically it wasn't his name - it was Geoffrey Mandel's:

though I'm told Mandel confirmed that his stuff was fanon.

 

Too bad the magazine doesn't say what you just said, then.

"In order to enforce the will of Emperor Palpatine across the galactic reaches, the Imperial Starfleet required a vessel of unprecedented size and power. Such a starship would be capable of subduing cities, perhaps even entire continents and whole worlds, without the deployment of a massive fleet."

The text is just laden with decades-old fanwank, since the same ship is supposed to be built during a conflict that saw three contemporary designs just as big or larger on the opposite side. At least one of which chewed up groups of Star Destroyers at a time. LFL's editors just make a habit of forgetting everything else Lucasfilm makes when it comes to profiling the Imperial-class.

Which means nothing if he came up with it, which is the point in question. If he was 19 and wanted to make a fanart, that's what he did. Got lucky when it got added to canon. Guess what, it's not a unique thing in franchises that run long enough. Same artist made fanart of ST ships around the same time and got to work on official stuff later. That doesn't mean he didn't invent something. Latin-based names are cool.

Who? What? Where?

"According to at least one person who stated they contacted the artist:
" Regarding the Geoffrey Mandel blueprints, I emailed him and asked him why nothing star wars was on his site, he said he never worked on star wars or for lucasfilm that the blueprints were a fan effort.""

Oh, the angry anonymous poster on a random sci-fi board, with no sources, who's obviously jealous? No, no, I believe that.
Taking this seriously: What exactly did he ask, if he even did? "Did you work on official SW stuff?" or "Did you do fanart of SW stuff?" I'm not understanding the point.

All the more reason to put their so-called fanboy credibility to good use and actually adress the appearance in ANH. Especially since the original model was detailed in the first Cross-Sections book by Reynolds and even points out the heavy turrets on top...
I guess Pablo and Chee are more interested in the spelling of "Meiloorun" or whatever it is they actually do at LFL.

Going back to a point I forgot to answer, way back:

Which means nothing, since they have the similar effect as other shields in battle and the same amount of problems for an enemy.

Going by your shield-logic, the stealth ship could have just snuck up and blasted the bridge instead of leading the torpedos to begin with. In fact, it's the problem that shields of any kind exist which leads to fighters having to find a weak spot. For instance, Wedge doing a U-turn around a strike cruiser in SOTE to get at its unprotected side while it's blasting away at the Rebel fleet.

Droideka shields allowed the tip of their guns to pass through before firing way back in TPM, btw. Which means they couldn't fire through them and I don't think they were thermo-shields.

There's plenty of instances in TCW where fighters struggle with capital ships when they go head-on. If any kind of shield would let them slip through, then why don't they? Why the need for subterfuge?

 

Does the appearance need to be addressed?

 

True, but as you noted Mandel had made it clear it was fanon. Saxton had always championed it as what should be the official name, especially since he loathed the name "Imperial-class".

What does that have to do with Mandel's design or name originally being fanon? Especially when there wasn't a 'canon' around at the time to begin with? I'm not even sure what you're arguing about here, other than just to argue.

 

I've noticed that most of the early post-ROTS comics, depict ISDs that look more like the Avenger model than the Devastator model (shape of the tower, shape of the domes).

The Exactor, for example, in the Dark Times comics:



It does seem like nobody makes any real effort to depict the Devastator-type model in the appropriate timeframe - why should The Official Fact File or Rebels be any different? (Of course, the Rebels ships have one trait that makes them look different from the Avenger-type as well - the tall "neck" to the tower - but that may be artistic licence).

 

Don't need that any more than I need adressed what the wings on a TIE fighter do. Don't need adressed where the hyperdrive motivator of an X-wing is located. Don't need adressed what a focusing crystal in a lightsaber is. Don't need technical manuals to enjoy SW, really. What I do need is for tech manuals, when they are made, to at least put in some effort.

Um, you were the one arguing Saxton came up with the name.
"Curtis Saxton, who wrote Incredible Cross Sections: ROTS and AOTC, wanted to get in his name for the Imperial-class - the Imperator -"
Or is this another one of your selective memories?

 

True enough. Some things can be addressed with out-of-universe explanations though (Wedge's change in appearance in ANH can be explained by "Change Of Actor").

I'm surprised they didn't do that with the guy in TESB "Good. Our first catch of the day" - the novelization says he's Needa - but for some reason it was decided that his slightly different appearance meant he was a different character - Xamuel Lennox of the Tyrant rather than Needa of the Avenger.