Lit Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

So i guess the new Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know, Updated and Expanded book reveals that Home One is now a modified MC80a star cruiser? MC80a? never heard of them before.

 

I've never understood why it's "Width/height/depth" rather than "Width/height/length".

 

is that the pilot Tallie Lintra in that pic of the pilot?

 

In another preview image for the Incredibuilds book where that image comes from - there's references to R-22 Spearheads of Tammuz-an as the chassis for the A-Wing (image 4 - Introduction) - basically, they took R-22 hulls and replaced things, including engines.

https://www.amazon.com/IncrediBuilds-wing-Resistances-High-Speed-Interceptor/dp/1682980952/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1507034574&sr=1-1&keywords=incredibuilds a-wing

Does this recanonize the R-22 - or should Incredibuilds sources be taken as mixing both Legends and newcanon content, but therefore, not recanonizing Legends content?

Like Ultimate Star Wars, the Absolutely Everything You Need To Know book, and so forth?

It wouldn't be the first time an Incredibuilds book made references to the Legendsverse that should be treated with caution.

Incredibuilds: Millennium Falcon, says that the Falcon's hyperdrive had been "jury-rigged Vandangate-style" - but that doesn't mean Doc Vandangate is canon now.

https://www.amazon.com/IncrediBuild...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=ZQTRRD4R7SQJ9XDW5VFG

And the Incredibuilds figures for the X-Wing (length and width) are very slightly different from those in Rogue One (which was specifically a T-65C-A2).

https://www.amazon.com/IncrediBuild...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SBVVEYWRJSV9KEVG680B

Maybe theirs represents a "regular T-65"? Which would be 13.31m long and 11.46m wide - whereas the C-A2 model is 13.4m long, 11.76m wide?

 

The fact that these books use elements that originated in Legends is not reason to deem 'em invalid. Otherwise, Rebels would be invalid too, because of, you know... Thrawn.

I mean the whole point about Legends is that they were free to reuse EU concepts if they wanted to. That's what they do here. I doesn't contradict anything, so why not?

 

The point being that we just had "Newcanon Complete Locations" come out that specifically removed an R-22 Spearhead reference and replaced it with "Phoenix Squadron A-Wing".

I can't be certain, but think Pablo might say that these books don't have full Story Group oversight.

Their TIE Fighter size figures don't match those of Rogue One, too.

True - but for some of the books, a "Uses content that Lucasfilm has deemed Legends" disclaimer in the back, was enough that Wookieepedia treated them with caution.

 

Think of it this way: the Complete Locations book simply contained a throwaway line about the R-22. There was no need to keep it. But here, they had an opportunity to explain things in detail.

 

We know from Ahsoka that the Rebels had something called "A-Wings" 1 year after ROTS.

And the narrative in the preview, calls Phoenix Squadron's ships A-Wings rather than R-22s, saying that their "trademark speed and agility did them little good against Vader".

Would you say that this book, combined with Poe Dameron: Flight Log showing ROTJ A-Wings labelled with shield generators, is indicative of them actually retaining some shields during the "stripping down for speed and agility" process described in the Databank?

If the even faster RZ-02 has shields - surely the RZ-01 didn't lose them completely in the process of conversion from R-22 to RZ-01.

After all- it's possible for the shield generators to tap into surplus engine power.

 

All- as a reminder, exercise caution when posting images/discussing stuff from TLJ. This thread has historically been given a pass when discussing the ships themselves, but only in a manner that doesn't reveal/hint at plot points. I wanted to remind everyone, as there are pages in that preview that reveal a major plot point.

--Adm. Nick

 

I'm going to have to rewatch that battle scene. Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily...

And are you saying the carrier is attacked by ordinary TIEs somewhere?

If I recall right from the pre-reboot canon, the type was originally a cargo-oriented "bulk cruiser", with the carrier role being a secondary conversion (all courtesy of Kathy Tyers in The Truce at Bakura), with the "cruiser-carrier" definition being later (WotC?) and specific to the conversion; but regardless, I wasn't thinking that the Quasar Fire was exactly built to tangle against capital ships... but I'd need to check at least wookieepedia to be sure, and I'm writing this reply quickly, so don't trust me to be accurate.

No, I mean 900m long.

That would make the smaller docking bays 100m high, and the big ones 150m.

We could say everything we see in that screencap is actually inside the trench, and the trench we see there is simply an inner trench. But that way the ISD-I would be 275m long. Which would mean all the Tantive IV's corridors would have to be in the engines...

If that is actually supposed to be the trench, then guestimating that the smaller hangar doors are ~10m high based on Docking Bay 327, the diameter works out at a mere ten miles.

Regardless, the image looks really cool.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

A-wings? I like that they've wrangled the length down to something more screen-accurate. Around 7.5m for this lengthened-looking and possibly all-around enlarged version seems reasonable.

The 9.6m WEG figure never fitted the size relationship between the cockpit and the hull - though I suspect that they upscaled the type to fit the WEG figure in REBELS, and I don't object to that approach either.

Hmm, maybe the Spearhead was 9.6m and the Rebels physically scaled down everything by one-third to create a lighter version...?

And this was supposed to be an edit, not a double-post. Oh well...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Given that Poe Dameron: Flight Log repeats the 9.6m figure (though the photos carefully remove the pilot model - what's shown is an empty A-Wing) - it would appear, especially in conjunction with Rebels (which shows very roomy cockpits, and a two-seater that uses the same chassis), that the RZ-02 is smaller than the RZ-01.

I'm guessing that Docking Bay 327 is smaller than most of the docking bays visible in Rogue One. Presumably the biggest docking bay visible is for Star Destroyers, the smaller ones are for light cruisers and for launching large TIE wings all at once - and Docking Bay 327 is smaller still.

 

There's no way that the cockpits we see on-screen in RotJ are consistent with a 9.6m length. So we have three types.

The "Endor variant", which is around 5m long, absolutely diminutive. I'm going to suggest that this is actually the R-22 Spearhead, which is equally-diminutive when seen in DROIDS.

The "REBELS variant", which is also the "WEG variant", which is 9.6m, and which is consistently associated with the RZ-01 designation. This is the first Rebel version - upscaled, not downscaled. Upscaling all the components would make production easier, and make room for concussion missiles, something I can barely imagine fitting on the miniature version. Note also that the guns are the type (from the McQuarrie production art) which recur on the RZ-02, different from the ones on the "Endor variant"...

The "RZ-02", which is 7.628m... and which, as an old New Republic design, can be equated with the "Mark II A-wing" seen in The Bacta War - effectively a reverse-canonization of an existing design from the Bantam era. Nice.

And re-watching that scene with Krennic's stealth shuttle and Tarkin's technological terror, I'm reminded that the shot pans up to the dish, so that is very clearly the whole trench.

Now, you're right that those hangars don't have to be as small as Docking Bay 327. In fact, re-watching the Falcon's arrival in ANH, they're clearly significantly larger. But not nearly so much larger that they can be scaled to 100m-150m - and we can be pretty precise about that, because something else this shot allows us to do is scale up from the Docking Bay 327 entrance to the overall trench height by combining footage from the Falcon's arrival and Krennic's departure.

Based on a ~10m height for Docking Bay 327's entrance in ANH, I get a height of about 250m for the "docking recess", and very roughly 500m for the entire height of the trench. That means that the two types of hangar seen in the shot with Krennic's shuttle are around 35m and 50m tall. I also reckon that if we're generous, we can wiggle up the ISD-I's height to nearer half that of the trench, and the Visual Dictionary gives us a precise height-to-length ratio of just over 1:3.75...

So Tarkin's technological terror is around 50km in diameter, and the ISD-I is... no more than 940m Which as a very rough guestimate in the first place, fits with the 900m size that I was seeing a lot of evidence for already...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

In Droids we see R22s that fit 3PO, R2, and the pilot, all in the same cockpit. They can't be that diminutive.

Regarding Docking Bay 327 - it should be noted that the Falcon is big - some 34.37 metres long, and 25.61m wide. (Using Incredibuilds: Millennium Falcon. The Databank, and the TFA ICS book, show it a few centimetres longer - but close enough that it doesn't make much of a difference).

Here, back when the Falcon was thought to be only 22m wide - the hangar's estimated as 17.55m high:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWdeathstarsizes.html

with extrapolation producing a main trench of 1.23 km.

Using the upscaled 25.61m Falcon, produces a 1.43 km high trench, if this guy's extrapolation process is right. Not far off the previously suggested 1 mile high trench.

 

We can't actually tell if the Falcon is inside or outside the docking bay in that shot.

Given the uncertainty about the size of the Falcon, I was extrapolating the Docking Bay 327 height from the height of the stormtroopers.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

From the shots of the Falcon inside the bay itself, it's reasonably consistent with it being halfway in, and the bay being on the order of 20m high rather than 10m.

Regarding the 9.6m A-Wing - Saxton's Model Dimensions page tells us the model was 60 cm long.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/exhibit/scale.html

He thinks it might have been 1/12 scale ("Speculative" is listed next to it). I checked and, if 1/16 scale - then it would be exactly 9.6m if scaled up. Maybe that was how WEG got the idea - they asked, they got model dimensions, and somehow, the scale given to them for the A-Wing was 1/16?

He also lists X-wings & Y-Wings as built to a different scale than TIEs. If X-Wing Miniatures got told that they were built to the same scale, that might be how we got the 8.99m TIE, when older works said it was only 6.3m.

(I'm also not sure how 46 cm x 91 cm for the Devastator, is compatible with this image, from the same site, of the Devastator sans reactor dome, which looks proportionally a lot wider than that) :

 

I keep seeing these low range ISD length estimates but I have no idea what the sources are. We have given lengths for ISDs, and numerous CGI models thereof, which are scaled directly to the other ship and character models. ILM isn't stupid and they aren't liars. I don't understand how this myth continues to exist.

 

Lt. Hija's probably one of the most enthusiastic arguers for the following:

Devastator is much more than a mile long
Avenger is quite a bit less than a mile long
Rogue One Star Destroyers are a lot less than a mile long, more like 0.6 miles long

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...idges-of-the-original-trilogy.50044307/page-3

mostly based on bridge modules, Falcon on bridge tower, Tantive IV in hangar bay, etc.

 

Seems like an odd thing to argue considering CGI models are necessarily scaled to one another in real time, from X-wings and TIE fighters, to CR90s and Imperial shuttles, to the Profundity and ISD.

 

Especially with cg models, we now get more consistency with depicting different scales in design given they all occupy the same digital space and said space must be able to rotate to give filmmakers more options in terms of what to film. They pioneered this in TCW and we even got the minidoc on it in R1.

 

Exactly. My only issue is how stingy LSG is with what those dimensions actually are. We know they have these properly scaled models that match whatever in-house metric it is that they're using relative to the characters, but they are very mum on what exactly those metrics are supposed to be except for a comparatively small amount of vehicles; those delineated in the canon reference books, ROVG, TFA ICS, the Rebels visual dictionaries, and maybe the TCW Incredible Vehicles book, which I don't think was officially included in the new canon but which was clearly using internal ILM model references, so if they were being truthful about the dimensions of those, they're probably more or less trustworthy, unless the authors of the book were just pulling random figures out of their collective butts.

So we wind up knowing exactly how long the Ghost and the ISD are, yet we still don't have an official length for the CR90. I don't really care whether what they say matches the screen model to the pixel, I just wanna know whether it's supposed to be 120 odd meters or 150 meters or what.

On that subject I did some rough estimates on the Nebulon B model from Rebels using a screenshot of the episode Secret Cargo where you see it pass right by in profile, but the small size of the image makes it difficult to be exact with the mspaint pixel arithmetic. At any rate, the most conservative estimates, which I don't believe are accurate, place that model at about 280m, while my most liberal calculation results in a length of almost 450m, which I'm certain must be wrong as a whole one-and-a-half times the commonly understood length is a huge scaling error, unless ILM changed it and forgot to tell anybody.

 

Concerning the new A-wing info this is turning out to be a very good year for fleet junkies.

 

Here's the image I'm talking about btw. Length in pixels for the bottom Nebulon is 440, height of bridge window is 2, results in a ratio of 220. Multiply whatever input you wanna give for the window height by 220 and you get the length of the model, at least in theory; again this is hardly the most detailed image for the task, perhaps it shows up better on the bluray.