Force Choke - Darkside Power or Not?

Luke's Force Choke is just a means to an end. That's the easiest way for him to get by the Gahmmorreann guards, so he does that. What's he supposed to do? Try and Mind Trick some thugs? That's pointless. It's like dogs you have on a leash. You use the leash to back them off. Not commands.

 

I hate to be your dog then. I always used commands to get my dogs to be silent. Not choking them. That's for damn sure.

Jedi do not believe in doing things easily. The Sith do. Using the Force as a means to an end is the way of the Sith, not the Jedi. Qui-gon Jinn, hailed as the true Jedi, never choked anyone. When things were difficult with Watto and the mind trick failed, he didn't choke him. He simply found another, less violent solution. Luke could've easily done likewise. That he didn't is a sign that he is not a Jedi yet.

 

There?s nothing in the films that ever shows any distinction between ?dark? or ?light? powers or ?Jedi? or ?Sith? powers. We have no idea going by the films. We don?t even know how Anakin learned the choke. Can every Jedi just do Sith powers if they wanted to? They just know it innately? The Sith have not been around in millennia and Anakin has only seen 2 in action, neither of whom used a Force choke. And suddenly on Mustafar, he just knows it. How?? When did he pick that trick up?

Just lazy writing and little concern for developing the lore of the Jedi and Sith. So it remains unaddressed.

 

Oh, please. If a Jedi can lift an object, they can crush it or restrict the airway of a trachea (sp). It's not something that's taught specifically. If a Force user can master telekenesis, they can do anything they want so long as they put their mind to it. It is associated with the Sith, because they're not for abusing the Force and abusing people with it. Inflicting serious harm.

As to Sith Lightning, when you have Sidious talking about the dark side of the Force and witnessing its power, one tends to acknowledge that it is of the dark side.

 

What a coincidence that Anakin and Luke both came up with the same idea about 20 years apart!

And I suppose when Yoda did a backflip and beheaded to 2 clone slaves while airborne he wasn?t ?inflicting serious harm??

All these distinctions are fan made. There is nothing in the movies that ever even remotely touches on a ?light side? or ?dark side? power.

 

That's the idea. It's not something they came up with. It is just something that they do. We see Maul and Sidious use intimidation. Sidious believes in using the lightning to inflict pain on Luke, before killing him. Maul has no reason to do this. Dooku has everyone's trust. When he fights, he uses the lightning.

They were going to shoot him, so he killed them to defend himself. But he uses a sword, not the Force.

Uh, the films do.

Palpatine: "The dark side of the Force is the path to abilities that some would consider...unnatural."

Palpatine: "Now you will experience the full power of the dark side of the Force."

Palpatine: "Power. Unlimited power!"

Palpatine: "Use my knowledge, I beg you."

Dooku: "I have become more powerful than any Jedi."

Anakin: "My Jedi powers have doubled since last time, Dooku."

Vader: "You don't know the power of the dark side."

Palpatine: "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side."

Vader: "The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now."

Palpatine: "Know the power of the dark side. The power to save Padme."

Palpatine: "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death."

Palpatine: "My mentor taught me everything about the Force...even the nature of the dark side."

Luke: "Is the dark side stronger?"

Yoda: "No, quicker. Easier. More seductive."

 

You are missing the distinction between a ?dark side power? and ?the power of the Dark Side.? In terms of them being a power source, the OT makes the distinction very clear. Hate, fear, vengeance, etc. all help draw on dark side power. But with respect to specific dark side powers, we get absolutely no explanation. As far as the films are concerned there are NO powers that are exclusive to one side. It?s never mentioned. It?s just a fan made idea.

As for Luke and Vader both ?inventing? the Force choke? I?m not buying that one. It?s just not explained. In the OT, the lack of explanation was not glaring but in the PT where we see the supposed Jedi in their prime, instructing padawans and the chosen one with archives, a temple and the whole nine, we get no explanation and it?s just lazy, poor writing. The PT provided the perfect time to delve into some of these concepts but it gets to none of them.

And as for Yoda he most definitely used the Force to fly through the air backwards and slice two heads. Because as usual, once the move was executed, he returned, to his aged, elderly limp and required a cane.

These distinctions just don't exist.

 

Eh, from time to time you make good points. But here all I see is you wanting to be spoonfed, and reaching when there's nothing to grasp for. Do you REALLY want everything spelled out for you? All the evidence is there, you're simply ignoring it in favor of it being said on screen by one of the characters.

 

this is another of those really good points.

there is nothing in the films to create the notion of dark side and light side powers.

nearest i can figure this came out of the need to have such construciton in video games and has nothing to do with the movie.

there is nothing, absolutely nothing except moral values preventing a jedi from using the force to crush the heart of a person standing in front of them.

nothing prevented kenobi from killing jengo with it, but because he doesn't think that way he let jengo shoot at him and basically fight him to a stale mate on Kamino.

it's not that complicated, there are things Jedi won't do, that doesn't mean they can't do them.

the force choke is the same, jedi don't do this, they certainly could though.

 

Exactly!! This is a GREAT post. Sidious, you are beaten. Why didn't Yoda just mind trick the clone troopers?

 

I don't think anyone's arguing if they could or couldn't. I think it's an argument on which side of the coin the powers are fueled from. No, I'm not saying there's two Forces, however, if you wanna get into that (which I don't) there's the Living Force and the Unifying Force, which really isn't two different Forces, just views. The Dark Side is definitive, the Light Side is Definitive. It's stated as much in the films. But to use Force Choke is to draw upon the Dark Side of the Force. It's used to harm. And to harm is of the Dark Side. Now, Green Sword of Destiny had a semi-valid point Yoda used Force Jump. He used the Force. But the Force did not cause the clone troopers harm. His lightsaber did the work. With Force Choke, the Force is doing the work.

 

Yet, we never see the Jedi do what the Sith do exclusively. To put it mildly.

Why do you think that it needs to be explained? There's no reason to expect an explaination. If you were looking for one, then that's a shame for you. All it is, is simply using a telekenetic grip. Maul had no reason to choke anyone. He scared the bejebeus out of everyone. Dooku didn't need to use intimidation with the Separatist Council. Sidious had Sith Lightning. But Vader was the one who when intimidation alone couldn't cut it and he couldn't fry someone, had to choke them. And since he didn't know how to fry someone, he just reached out and squeezed. During the "Last Stand On Jabiim", Anakin choked a soldier who drew his blaster on him. That was the first time he ever used the Force that way, intentionally. When he did it to Padme, he had already done it once before to punish someone for their transgression. Luke, aware or unaware, just used it. The irony is that we now know that Vader used it on his mother. So Luke is doing what contributed to his mother's death.

Yoda used the Force to get into the air, but he used his sword to kill. Not the Force itself. Big difference. Yoda used the Force to move around in battle, because he has a disadvantage of being about two feet tall. 66 centimeters. He has to use the Force to jump and run. But he doesn't use it once the fighting is over. He uses the Force with great care and not anymore than he has to.

 

Sinister- You keep mentioning things being spoonfed. The saga has been over for over a year now and people are making new threads asking about this, so obviously it was not explained adequately. And to no surprise, there is a similar thread with respect to Force Lightning. So yes, I would have MUCH more preferred to have the movies clear this up.

Did you need to have the history of the Gungan kingdom and their conflict with the Naboo spoonfed to you? Well you got it. The larger issue is that in 3 films GL somehow neglected to show any real aspect of Jedi or Sith training. Or even delve into the philosophies and beliefs of either side aside from brief surface statements. It is this lore and mythos that elevate the story. And it?s severely lacking in the PT. And this is supposedly the Jedi in their prime. It just makes for a weaker story. And we are left with threads like these where there are still questions being raised.

Even this idea about ?Jedi do not abuse the force? is again just fan made. We?d like to believe it but the films don?t ever say that. And they should. Or just say something.

 

The Jedi don't abuse the Force is in the films. Look at the facts. What do the Jedi use the Force for? Blocking blaster bolts, mind tricks, levitation of themselves or another or an object and looking to the future. As well as sensing the thoughts & emotions of others. That's it. Let's look at the Sith. They choke people with it. Inflict harm in various ways. Set up dictatorships using their ability to sense the future and one's emotions and thoughts. Electorcute people and biggest of all, apparently creating life and cheating death. Sidious even says to Anakin that some would consider what the Sith do to be unnatural. Then you've got the Force going out of balance because of the Sith, whereas its in balance with the Jedi. As to it being in the films, I point you to TESB.

Yoda: "A Jedi uses the Force, for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."

Oh, btw, I haven't been mentioning things being spoonfed in quite some time. People are asking about the Force choke because the author of this thread doesn't believe that Luke was in danger of turning to the dark side, early on in ROTJ. And that his choking the Gammoreans is a sign that he's becoming a lot like his father. The lightning is a whole different topic.


As to Lucas somehow neglecting to show real specific training, who is to say that Lucas even intended to show us any training beyond what we see in ANH, TESB, TPM and AOTC. What Lucas did have in TESB, he and Kershner cut out because it was ran too long. Or unimportant. Or could be summarized in another scene.

 

I'd say this isn't true. Qui-Gon didn't need to influence the dice on Tattooine, but he did anyway.

 

Ah, but Qui-gon was right in doing that. He knew that Watto was going to cheat using a rigged chance cube. Anyone who says, "I just happen to have a chance cube" or something along those lines when gambling, they're usually crooked. Qui-gon taught Watto a lesson on trying to rigging a game like that. That's part of the reason in casinos they replace the card deck often and make sure that everyone sees that it's a fresh pack. One without any bends or telltale signs that allow someone to cheat that way. Or why if you're going to rely on something like a pair of dice or a coin, to make sure that you're not being set up to loose.

 

That analysis of Qui Gon's actions is akin to saying if you know someone is trying to pay you with counterfiet dollars, give them counterfeit change back . Of course that is not the right thing to do. he could have easily just called Watto on his fixed dice and found an honest way to barter for Anakin.

Watto leanred know lesson except to suspect that Jedi are devious since QG never told him that he used the Force to rig the game back on him or explain himself. He just abused the Force to get what he wanted.

 

Adjusting a dice roll, so that you can save a boy from slavery and get a part that allows you to get to Coruscant and save the population of Naboo from enslavement, is not akin to using the Dark Side. The Dark Side option would have been to kill Watto and take the Hyperdrive parts you need.

 

No, Sith Rising, cheating is part of the Dark Side as well. Isn't it? Watto cheated in the game and Qui Gon cheated back, using the Force.

 

There is no cheating to a Jedi. Do you think a Jedi deflecting a blaster bolt back at the attacker is cheating?

 

Qui-gon didn't cheat. He merely taught a lesson to Watto. There was no selfishness involved. No greed. The dark side is fear, anger, hate, greed, obsessiveness, possessiveness and jealousy. There was no honest way to barter, because Watto would not barter for Anakin and Qui-gon could not afford to pay for the parts and for Anakin.

As to Watto learning a lesson, he did learn afterwards that gambling will ultimately result in losing. That's why he's in poor shape ten years later, with people owing him money. If he had not gambled so recklessly, he wouldn't have lost as he did and he wouldn't be down on his luck.

 

You guys are getting away from the point. You said "The Jedi don't abuse the force in the movies." I showed you a place where one does. That is all. You admitted that Qui Gon didn't need to do that, so we're cool. No need to bring light side and dark side into THAT discussion. We're clear. The Jedi SOMETIMES abuse the force. Done.

 

No, what I said was that he didn't need to take Anakin then. I never said he was wrong for using the Force like that. I'm making a point about his being wrong to take Anakin in, when he knew full well that he would be a danger and might be rejected by the Council. That's a separate issue, btw.

In this case, Watto was going to cheat and Qui-gon being suspicious, decided to make a point of making this blow up in his face.

 

There?s nothing in the films that ever shows any distinction between ?dark? or ?light? powers or ?Jedi? or ?Sith? powers.

Sure there was. Dooku used force lighting so did Palpatine. Yes Yoda blocked it and sent it back at them. But that's all he did. There are power that both Sith and Jedi can use. Then there are powers that are just for the Jedi and just for the Sith. The Force lighting is just for Sith use. Where is in my view the Jedi mind trick is just for the Jedi.

 

Did Qui Gon HAVE to use the force to influence the dice?