CT Force Ghost question

Exactly. Luke is given larger responsibilities that he cannot shirk as opposed to being a farmer. Owen and Beru knew this, but Owen's fears kept him from letting him go.

 

Well, that doesn't refute anything I said in that quote, and it's a lame explanation.

I don't think that burst when Palps died had to do with the dark side. I think it was just an explosion.

 

It looked to me like he got stuck in a dark Force lightning feedback loop. He was merrily zapping away when Vader pulled his "Stop hitting yourself" move and he couldn't stop until he overloaded and exploded.

 

Is that what happened? I thought he exploded because the One Ring fell off his finger when he hit the side of the reactor shaft.

 

When Obi-Wan’s body dissappears, Vader is confused, and Vader tells The Emperor that “Obi-Wan can no longer help him (Luke)”, so I think it was clear that Vader doesn’t know about Force Ghosts.

I doubt it considering that Vader clearly doesn’t know about Force Ghosts. If all Force Users became Force Ghosts, Vader would have noticed that all the Jedi he has killed dissappeared.

It’s explained that Exar Kun drained the life out of the Massassi (a species that lived on Yavin IV and built the temple for Kun) in order to become a ghost. There’s more on Exar Kun, the Massassi, and Sith ghosts in the Tales of the Jedi comics.

 

I don't see how it amounts to the same thing at all. Surviving injuries through the dark side simply keeps you alive but as a living being, you're still able to die. And once dead, the energy joins the cosmic Force. While Force ghosts retain their individuality after death. They can't be killed, because they are dead. They are not vulnerable in that regard like a life form.

I never said his training was being put off. I said that Obi-Wan could have guided and trained him for three years (which explains Luke's growing abilities and how he's "learned so much") and when deemed ready, he sent him to Yoda. The Jedi way is not about rushing things either.

You're right. It makes no sense to wait three whole years. Which is why it's only logical that Obi-Wan has been guiding him for that long from the Force, as opposed to radio silence for that long.

 

But was Luke at the start of ESB that much further along than at the end of ANH?
Yes he could pull the lightsaber to him but that took effort and was slow.
Also, how much time did Luke spend with Yoda in ESB, weeks, maybe a month or two.
And there he advanced quite quickly. And Obi-Wan had three years?

But another issue is the danger from the Empire. Before ANH, Luke and Leia were somewhat safe in that the empire did not know about Luke and had no direct reason to go after Leia.
After ANH that is no longer the case. Luke and Leia are now hunted by the Empire. And if the Empire gets them then Leia will be executed and Luke either killed or turned.
Both would be really bad.
So why wait three years while the empire are hunting them and could kill them at any point?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

"Guiding" isn't the same as training. No, as far as I'm concerned the waiting-3-years thing is a plot hole. But I accept it. Doesn't ruin the OT for me or anything.

No, Force ghosting and the dark side survival power aren't the exact same things with the exact same effects, but both involve using the Force to persist in some way after something deadly happens to the person. Obi-Wan got cut down by a lightsaber. Maul got cut in half by a lightsaber. They both "lived on" in some way or form afterward, so I'd consider both "cheating death", as well as the sacrificial resurrection thing in TROS. That's how it all amounts to the same thing, IMO.

 

I don't know how much is "that much". The point is that he's definitely further along, not only from what we see him do but also from what he tells Yoda.

So? No different from what we see Jedi do, like Obi-Wan pulling his lightsaber before he threw it to Anakin in AOTC. Both were injured too.

Three years of guidance from the netherworld. And he wouldn't advance as quickly had he not learned what he learned.

That's what I'm saying, I don't think he waited three years. I think he's been guiding him ever since ANH.

 

I dunno. Luke's reaction in ESB doesn't exactly give the impression that he sees Ben's ghost regularly.

 

The impression I got is that he's not sure he's hallucinating or not, specially when he had just fainted.

And maybe it is the first time he sees Ben. But it's certainly not the first time that Ben contacts him through the Force, since he had already done it in ANH.

 

Again why definitely?
Luke is not shown to have that much greater command over the Force at the start of ESB than he did at the end of ANH. They only thing is pulling the lightsaber.

Also, the context of what he tells Yoda is this;

Yoda refers to Luke failing the test in the cave and Luke says he has learned so much since then, ie the cave. Not three years getting guidance from Obi-Wan.

Here you are using a bit of circular logic, he would not have advanced as fast as he did if he did not had gotten guidance for three years and this proves he had guidance for three years.
Not so, Luke could just advance really fast because of his training with Yoda.

Also, in ESB Vader and Palpatine are both sensing a great disturbance in the Force and they connect that to Luke. But this seemed a new thing, if Luke had trained for three years and gotten stronger, why did they not sense that?

That was not the point, the point was the empire hunting Luke down. If they caught Luke, he would die or be captured. Dagobah seemed off the Empires radar, Yoda was there and neither Vader nor Palpatine was aware of him. So have Luke go there as soon as possible. Waiting three years and risking Luke and Leia's death makes little sense.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Really? Well, unfortunately for you, the purpose of that scene is precisely to show the growth of his abilities. That he has learned more about the Force ever since ANH. His ability to use the Force to pull his lightsaber is an example of something that he never did before and has obviously learned how to.

Also established in ANH is that Ben can contact and guide him from the netherworld, which explains how he developed his abilities and connection to the Force between movies.

No, it's this:

YODA: "He is too old. Yes, too old to begin the training."

LUKE: "But I've learned so much."

It's not circular logic, it's deductive logic. It would obvious take longer for Luke if had no basis and had to start from scratch. As established in the movies, he didn't start from zero when he got to Yoda.

Because even then, he wasn't that strong before. That's why Ben sent him to Yoda, because he was ready for the next phase of training.

The risk of getting captured or dying has existed ever since Luke left Tatooine. That's part of accepting the Jedi path and going out into the world.

Besides, your premise is wrong. Luke wasn't sent to Yoda for his protection or so that the Empire didn't catch him. He was sent there to continue his Jedi training.

What I'm saying works with what's established in the movies and explains why Ben only sent Luke to Yoda at that time. He has been guiding him for that long and would know best when the time was right.

 

I think this is the key. The Force is a spiritual phenomenon, and offers subtle guidance to those who commune with it. As a Force ghost, I suspect OWK was more in touch with the will of the Force than most beings. (Maybe that's what he meant by "more powerful than you can possibly imagine.") He waited 3 years to send Luke to Yoda because he could sense that was the right amount of time to wait. And his patience and faith were rewarded by the way the Force made things turn out at the end of RotJ.

 

yeah I would imagine that Ben would be giving him some low-level training , not enough to set off alarm bells with the Emperor , plus Luke needs time to settle in with his new life, but now the time is right to get Luke some serious training.

 

It was there in "Splinters Of The Mind's Eye" and the EU stories set prior to TESB. Luke even knowing that he could summon his Lightsaber indicates something learned not only in his travels, but from Obi-Wan.

 

Legends was fairly heavy on the Obi-Wan Ghost Tuition. Newcanon not so much, with Luke having much less overt Obi-Wan training, and instead working out a few things on his own.

 

I don’t think I ever saw them as ‘Force’ ghosts originally. They were just ghosts. As a kid I fully expected Han, Chewie and Leia to become ghosts as well.

I realized what was going on after I rewatched them on VHS. Then I had to come to terms with the thought that Han and Chewie probably won’t return as ghosts after they’ve met their end. It wasn’t long after that that I got to see Snow White for the second time. “Why is the castle in sky?” asked my sister. “Oh damn” was my reply.

Curse these grown up eyes!

 

Or Luke learned this on his own. We know that Luke's abilities grew between ESB and RotJ and yet he got no training from Yoda nor did he talk with Obi-Wan. So Luke was able to do stuff on his own.
ANH had him learn to tap into the Force so he knew how to do that. So he could have done some testing on his own with this.
And Luke's abilities grow very fast once he trains with Yoda but when it comes to piloting, sensing stuff in the Force, he seems no further along at the start of ESB than at the end of ANH. The only new thing is pulling the lightsabre and he had to struggle with that.

To me, this does not speak of three years worth of training and tutelage from Obi-Wan.

Ah, I had forgotten that, thank you.

Luke did not start from scratch either way, he did get some lessons in ANH. He learned how to tap into the Force with the remote and then again with the DS. So Luke had learned some stuff.
And as I said above, Luke did some training on his own between ESB and RotJ, so he is shown to be able to figure out stuff by himself.

But if we take the PT into account, Yoda was the one who trained the young ones, so he was used to train people from the beginning. So why would Luke not go right away? Did he need this before Yoda could train him? Why and how?
If Obi-Wan did not think Luke ready until now, again Yoda had trained five year olds, how ready were they?
Plus Yoda made a big deal about Luke being too old, so why wait three years if age is an issue?
If they were unsure if he was ready to have that power or be responsible.
Obi-Wan said in ESB that being half-trained was a dangerous time for him. That he could feel the Force but not control it. Thus the danger of turning was greater. So why have Luke be partially trained for years?
Better to get him fully trained as soon as possible.
If Yoda did not think Luke was ready, first, he has not much in the way of options, Luke is one of two possible choices. And if Luke is no good, then they have Leia.
Letting time pass and possibly Luke and Leia dying seems needlessly risky.

But the premise is this, to Yoda and Obi-Wan, Luke and Leia are the ONLY two people in the entire galaxy that can stop the Sith. Thus they are very precious. If both were to die then they have no hope of stopping the Sith. That is why the children were hidden, why Leia was hidden with Bail. To try and keep them safe.
But now Luke and Leia are on the Empires radar. They are hunted and if caught, they would be killed, captured or turned. Either option is very bad for Yoda and Obi-Wan.

So again, why let Luke and Leia run around and be hunted by the Empire for three years?

If Luke is trained, he has a better chance of surviving an imperial attack.
Plus, having him be hidden while he trained makes sense, then he is safe until he is ready.

@gezvader28

But Luke, by this stage, is already hunted by the Empire. The Empire wants him caught or killed because of being a rebel and what he did with the DS. So even without causing disturbances in the Force, Luke is far from safe. The empire is after him and Leia as well.
So Luke is no safer. And as I said above, if he is trained then he is better equipped to deal with dangers.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

We don't know when the Emperor/Vader discovered Luke is the son of Skywalker in that gap between ESB and ROJ.

 

Right. A concept that is very much in vogue nowadays, but learning on his own is not really the message of these movies. But to be taught and in turn teach others. Nobody learns to use the Force or the ways of the Jedi by themselves.

By that point he had already been trained by Yoda. He did nothing that wasn't imparted upon him.

He could. And it could have also been a result from further guidance by Obi-Wan, which I do assume happened, as opposed to not have any guidance at all between those movies.

Okay, I obviously disagree.

That he learned stuff in ANH is not in question. But that he learned more since ANH and from where if not Obi-Wan.

I don't know. I think Obi-Wan knows best what Luke needed to learn and go through and when would be the right time for him to be sent to Yoda. Maybe he reached a point where he couldn't teach him much more from the netherworld and the time had come for him to continue the training on a more direct and personal level.

Nobody is questioning Yoda's ability to train Luke, wether three years before or three years after.

Age was already an issue from the get go, since he started training at an advanced age back in ANH. Yoda had more of a problem with it, as he should, but he eventually resigned himself to the present situation.

Partially? My argument is that the training and guidance didn't stop to begin with. It has been on-going.

Nobody is letting time pass. Unless you subscribe to the premise that he didn't get guidance and training for three years, which you're entitled to, but that's not my argument.

Except they aren't children anymore, they are adults, with their own free will and agency. They are no longer being hidden. They have their own lives and responsibilities. They take their own risks, like nearly being destroyed by the Death Star.

The Jedi don't own them nor do they pretend to. They respect their decisions, even when they are doing reckless stuff, like Luke rushing to Cloud City out of fear. They respect the will of the Force and the matters of fate. If they were going to lose Luke and Leia, that was a fate that they would accept.

 

people didn't overthink it. probably figured good people went to force heaven and bad people went to force hell. remember, it wasn't until much later the notion that only force users could become ghosts was a thing

 

Someone had to, otherwise where did the first Jedi or first Force users come from?
There must have been a time before all that, when people were just doing trial and error with what they could do with the Force. If there was no one to teach/train them, they must have picked it up by themselves.

So Yoda taught him the Force choke? I thought that was considered a Dark Side power.

And I think that the Luke we see at the end of ANH and the one we see at the start of ESB, to me, does not seem that much further along becoming a Jedi. The only new thing he is shown doing is to grab things with the Force and he struggled with that. It does not speak of three years worth of training and instructions from Obi-Wan. Also some of the things Yoda says, that the dark side is not stronger, that a Jedi only uses the Force for defense. Could Obi-wan not tell Luke that? Obi-Wan would know it.
So some of the things Yoda tells Luke seems fairly basic and with three years of Obi-Wan telling Luke things, it seems odd that he would not know this.

Looking at the reality of the situation, Yoda had not been invented when ANH was made and was created for ESB. So things were made up a bit as they went along. Nor do I think this a big issue or a plot hole.
It is rather minor.

But how much more has he really learned? We don't see much besides the lightsabre.

But this is another issue, in RotJ, Obi-Wan says that he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda but he was wrong. So why would an Obi-Wan, that failed with Luke's father, spend three years training Luke instead of handing things over to Yoda as soon as possible?

But since Yoda can train Luke much faster than Obi-Wan when we compare what Luke got over three years and what he got over a few weeks, maybe 1-2 months. Then why wait?

Needless risk.

But waiting compounds the issue. And even more so with Leia, that has not started training.

In ESB Obi-Wan says that this is a dangerous time for Luke, when he will be tempted to use the dark side of the Force because he does not yet have control. That completing the training was important. So why drag it out? Get it done much faster.

They are letting time pass, Leia is not getting any training and could get killed at any point.
If we go with the idea that Obi-wan is giving Luke some training over three years. Given how much Luke grew under Yoda and how much less he had gained under Obi-Wan. They are wasting time.
Yoda could likely do in a week what Obi-Wan spent three years doing.

Why are they training Luke? First, to stop/conquer/kill the Sith. This was very important to Yoda and Obi-Wan. "Stopped they must be, on this everything depends." Second, to restart the Jedi Order.
So they are very much training Luke with a clear goal in mind. They even tell him that he can not escape his destiny, that he had to confront Vader again.
"And confront him you will." and "You cannot escape your destiny."
Also, they hide things from him, so how much agency are they giving Luke when they keep stuff from him and tell him that he must do things?

And this still does not deal with how important Luke and Leia are. If they get killed, the galaxy is lost.
So Luke is willing to become a Jedi, so why wait? Esp when the risk is so great? Why was Leia never asked? That they waited until ANH, ok that can work. Luke and Leia were sort of safe and not on the empire's radar. That is no longer the case, they are hunted. And yet they let three years pass when Luke and Leia were hunted by the empire and if they died, it would mean disaster.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

In Legends the Sith can become Force Ghosts too

 

Yeah, always wondered why during the early EU (especially in TOTJ) so many writers apparently assumed every Jedi would vanish upon his death and becomes a force ghost.

Doesn't make any sense, even if only considering Vader's reaction to Ben's death and what was already known about Anakin's fall and Vader's role in the purge against the Jedi.

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