Free Choice or Fate-which idea guides the Saga?

^ ^ Unless both destiny and free will are in operation simultaneously, as appears to be the case in the SW universe. Whether this is so in the real world is anyone's guess... or the basis of their philisophical system.

 

So I'll just rephase the question to suit your needs: Was becoming Darth Vader, part of Anakin's path to get to the final point of Anakin's destiny?

See, you guys keep on reminding me that Anakin made a lot of wrong choices but what if those perceived wrong choices were part of the destiny? I do understand that you guys think that Anakin was wrong so there is little need to keep repeating that point.

And forgive me for repeating myself, and I'll rephase this statement: Show me where Lucas says that Anakin was not supposed to become Darth Vader because Darth Vader was not part of the destiny but instead was a choice that Anakin did all on his own and he could have really reached the final point of his destiny by allowing Mace to kill Palpatine. And please, don't give me the "well I remember one time when Lucas said .... but I don't know where to find that" thing.

See this is all very simple but for whatever you guys want to keep on coming back to whether or not Anakin had free will:

Destiny within Star Wars is not to be equated to a person making their way to California unless it was part of a greater cosmic design that that particular person go to California.

See like I said earlier you don't just bounce the word destiny around like you would the word destination.
The word destiny has a deep and profound meaning because its a word that is part of a lexicon that belongs to the concept of fatalism.

George Lucas believes in something greater than himself and that's why he writes stories like Star Wars which is a spiritual story. Now again, my position is hardly about Anakin's ability to take the perceived right or perceived wrong path. My position is that how do you know Anakin wasn't merely following some greater cosmic destiny when he lopped off Mace's hand and killed numerous people?

It's really a very simple question but all you guys can answer it with is your opinion of Star Wars.

See, I'm not suggesting something so totally absurd like you guys think. There are people in this world who when their entire village is leveled by an earthquake they'll turn around and say that God made this happen and God will help us through it. That is no joke. I've seen it. Now see many so called advanced people will just shake their head and say, "Oh, what pitiful stuff," but see, I don't. I say, "Now that is truly what faith is all about."

So within a lot of old school myths we have stories about divinty's wrath upon the people as punishment for their sins. Do we not? So if Star Wars is what George Lucas says it is and he does say it's just a myth:

"I knew from the beginning that I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale." --The Annotated Screenplays

Then isn't it at all possible that it was part of a greater cosmic plan that Anakin turn into Darth Vader for some reason that the mortals of the story cannot understand and weren't meant to understand?

And since I'm not hearing George Lucas say it wasn't part of Anakin's destiny but instead I hear George Lucas calling Anakin "the victim", and you can hear him call Anakin the victim on the featurette titled "The Chosen One" then why are you so sure of your position and so disgusted by mine?

I'm mean since I have posted here in SaberSlash's thread it has been said that I have distorted views of the world, I'm wrong and that this is all just fabricated in my mind. And the position from which you guys leveled these claims was just based on the fact that what I'm saying is not popular opinion so therefore it cannot be true. Well I'm sure you guys don't need a history lesson about popular opinion so I won't give it.

 

What you're calling destiny is actually determinism. Lucas has said that you can choose to follow your destiny or not. If you can choose to not follow your destiny, it is no longer your "destiny" per se. If Anakin had run away from every chance to balance the Force ( i.e. destroy Sidious ) throughout his entire life, he would not have balanced the Force. Of course, since we all know the saga is meant to have a "happy ending", it can be considered deterministic in an OOU sense. But I believe that in-universe it could have gone either way. In other words Anakin is not doomed to balance the Force no matter what he does; the choice to do so is still required.

 

Yes.

It was part of his path, obviously, because that was the path he chose for himself, and he did end up fulfilling his destiny.

And no.

But it wasn't the only path he could have taken. It was just one of many possibilities, and just happened to be the one he took. He could have fulfilled his destiny on any number of occasions. It was part of his particular path, because of the decisions he made. It didn't need to be in order for him to fulfill his destiny. Had he made different choices in life, he could have fulfilled his destiny in multiple different ways.

Going back to my wedding in California example, lets assume that I chose to drive through, going through the midwest. You could say that driving through Iowa and Nebraska was part of my path to get to the wedding. It would be true, technically, because that is the route I chose to take. But, that doesn't mean it was the only possible way to get to California. I could have gone through different states and still got to where I needed to be. I could have flown.

Becoming Darth Vader was part of Anakin's path, because Anakin chose to make it part of his path, not because destiny forced him to become a Sith Lord. He could have fulfilled his destiny right there and then in Palpatine's office...he was already in California, as it were. He instead chose to drive out of town, go halfway across the United States, and then come back. Yeah, he got to the wedding and fulfilled his destiny...but, he could have done it in a lot more simple way, and could have gotten there a lot sooner.

His destiny might have ensured that he did end up killing the Sith, but it didn't force the path he took upon him. He could have done any number of things differently, and still eventually fulfilled it.

 

fate is an ultimate conclusion to a certain set of interactive variables.

2 (interactive variable) x(interaction) 2(interactive variable) = 4.

clash 2 and 2. add them, subtract them, multiply and divide them. you have fate.

fate says that 2 and 2 clash to make 4 or 1 or 0.

destiny says one of these (4, 1, or Zero) is the ultimate answer.


Get real.

ask the question - derive an answer.

EXACT a fate

DERIVE a destiny

call it metaphysical - call it otherworldly.

Call it math - call it truth.

I don't care.

 

But ultimately it is just your opinion that Anakin didn't have to become Darth Vader. Isn't it?
You have no real evidence that validates your position. Do you?

 

Evidence, schmevidence. Fate vs. free will is a matter of individual interpretation that has been debated by scholars, philosophers and religious teachers for thousands of years. In the early days of the Christian Church, for example, the Pelagian heresy was a doctrine of free will that contradicted what the Church propounded about God-ordained determinism. People were executed for their heretical "free will" beliefs. Today the pendulum seems to have swung the other way, and most people tend to believe in personal choice over cold, uncontrollable destiny.

Lucas' quotes about Anakin's choices make it clear (to me, at any rate) that the author's interpretation is that choice is the crucial element. Darth Vader was not destined to exist; Anakin Skywalker chose to become him.

 

people ask is it either/or , but I think in stories as in real life , it's both , I know that doesn't seem to make sense but that's how I see it.

 

Now Vort, you're turning things around on me. You guys are the ones telling me I'm wrong. I never said that about your interpretation. You keep telling me about these Lucas quotes that prove your point but you never present them.

Anakin does have free will but that choice has been manipulated by a vision of Padme's death. That choice was also manipulated by the people around him. Anakin does have free will but that choice has been manipulated by the vision of his mother dying. That choice was also manipulated by the people around him.

Fatalism and determinism exist together in Star Wars and Lucas says that right here:

Source: The Making Of Episode I

"The Force breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force.

"The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera.

"But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it, or not."

- George Lucas, 1999

See, you want me to think Anakin was making all these, as you put it, "wrong/erroneous/morally incorrect -- choices" but I'm wondering are you truly appreciating what I'm saying? Qui-Gon says, "Nothing happens by accident." So how can you know that Darth Vader was not part of greater cosmic plan that the mortals do not understand and were not meant to understand?

You want to identify with Anakin but his journey is not to be identified by a normal person because he is only half mortal. Did his mother have a choice in the conception of his birth? No. So isn't it possible that Anakin never had a choice to become Darth Vader just like Shmi never had a choice to become a mother? You guys keep on bringing in the real world scenarios about how real world humans see fatalism vs. free will but this is a fictional story and even though Lucas has created thematic devices out of characters and groups of characters that represent real would human behavior you're not supposed to bring in your real world views about free will and fatalism because the truth is things like our existance, why we are here, and how we got here are impossible to rationalize because we have yet to grasp the meaning of life and we may never grasp it. So like I said Star Wars is an allagory within an allagory. It appears to be this story about the central character who is Anakin who gives into temptation and it is that story but what it's also about is the people around him and they're the ones who are really being judged by a higher power and Anakin is their savior and he is the will of the higher power but he is also the will of the mortals because fatalism and determinism is intertwined.

So it's not that I'm saying you're wrong like you do to me. It's that you're right on one level of Star Wars.

In time I believe people will understand what Lucas was saying when he said there's a lot there that most people haven't come to grips with.

I mean don't you think I once viewed Star Wars just like you do? I mean I've had to endure these little comparisions between automobile trips through smalltownusa to Anakin's journey. Mmmmm.

I'm listening to you wi

 

immolated_one, I agree with almost all of that. The only point of contention for me in all of the above is your insistence (I'm paraphrasing here) that Anakin was fated or destined to become Darth Vader in order to point up the failings of the Jedi/people of the galaxy. As far as the deterministic aspects of Anakin's journey, it may indeed be that he was fated to restore balance to the Force... but was he fated to turn evil and become the very thing he was meant to destroy? I do not believe so. Other than that, I'm in agreement with you. At last! We have an accordance!

 

Yeah, it all depends on what the real question is...If you are asking if Darth Vader was necessary in order for Anakin Skywalker to fulfill his destiny of bringing balance to the Force, then no, Darth Vader wasn't necessary. In fact, it could be argued that his choice to become an agent of evil actually acted as an obstacle to that fulfillment. Was his turn to the Dark side inevitable, based on all the outside forces working against him, ie Palpatine's manipulations? Perhaps, perhaps not. Anakin's turning into Darth Vader and his fulfillment of the Jedi prophecy are not directly tied together. He didn't have to be Vader to do what his destiny foretold. They are unrelated, and only appear related in hindsight. Perhaps if the prophecy had also foretold that the Jedi Chosen One would fall prior to fulfilling that destiny, you could then make the case that Darth Vader was a requirement to get Anakin to achieve his destiny. But, since the prophecy is so vague, the actual details of that prophecy aren't nearly as relevant as the outcome. As long as the Chosen One does what he is supposed to, it doesn't matter why, when, or how. Thus, enters Anakin's free will. Which, is not total. That may be part of the problem. Some may be assuming that free will means absolute total free will, without any sense of fate. There is no wedding in California, so it doesn't matter one way or the other if I ever get there or not. That would be total free will, and thats not what I am arguing.

This is more like a boss telling an employee "Here is what I need, I don't care how you do it, as long as it gets done", versus "I don't care what you do all day, whether you work, or not" (complete free will) or "This is what I want, and these are the exact steps you need to take in order to do it the way I want". (complete slavery to fate)

Its a balance between fate/destiny determining the outcome, and free will determining the journey taken to get there.

 

I'm playing a little catch-up here, but wanted to give a partial response...

If all Anakin ever does -- if all he ever can do -- is mechanically follow along a pre-arranged course of events and actions, a destiny carved in stone, so to speak, irrespective of his own decision-making abilities, then he is no longer like us in the real world, and his story can have no resonance in a symbolic/metaphorical/mythopoeic sense. Since we all have free will here -- since we can act or not act according to our own choices -- separating out Anakin from this universal human experience is to extinguish his relevance as the protagonist of a sweeping morality tale.

I agree with Vort. In addition, if everything in Anakin's life was happening by divine intervention and not by his own choosing, then there is a further implication. Anakin's ability to fulfill his destiny depended on the actions of other, primarly (but not exclusely) Luke's. So Luke's actions, and to a degree Leia, Han, Chewy, Lando and the Droids would also not be excersizing free-will in much of the story, but being guided by destiny. That would further downplay the element of choicing between right and wrong, good and evil, within the story.


Something else, addressing another point: I may misunderstand you, I_M_O, but I gather you feel Anakin had to become Vader as part of the Prophecy as a means of punishing and (by virtue of) purify the galaxy from its sin. But the primary sins you listed were in regards to the Naboo being (or attempting to be) oppressed and the issue of slavery (clones and Tatooine). However, it was the Sith and Hutts behind all of this. The Sith manipulated the TF into attacking Naboo. The Sith commissioned the Clone's creation and then later ordered they be used for the war. The Hutts allow slavery laws. During Vader's reign as the right-hand man to Palpatine none of these people are punished. I would argue that the senate and Jedi's sin of collaboration in these thing (knowing or unknowingly, willingly or unwillingly) is the lesser evil, but yet they were the one's who suffered because of Anakin's turn.

 

Something else, addressing another point: I may misunderstand you, I_M_O, but I gather you feel Anakin had to become Vader as part of the Prophecy as a means of punishing and (by virtue of) purify the galaxy from its sin.

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I think GL left the actual meaning/interpreation of what/who the "chosen one" is up in the air knowing that the definition would be debated on these forum boards. Yoda said, as I paraphase a bit, "A prophesy, misread, may have been". So I can see why I-M-O holds certain opinions. Maybe bringing balance to the force meant cleaning house and Anakin had to go down the dark path to reach the light. I also agree with Vort that the philosophical debates on free will v. fate has been debated for thousand of years before modern philospy took hold.

Destiny: the predetermined, usually inevitable or irresistible, course of events;
the power or agency that determines the course of events. (Obiwan to Luke about escaping his destiny and facing Vader)

free will: the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not determined by physical or divine forces. (Obiwan to Luke--You must choose to do what you feel is right)
dictionary.com (btw)

I think stating that you have free will to make your own choices in order to reach your pre-determined destiny is a bit of an oxy-moran if you think about it. Good debate.

 

That's it. That's what I was saying. And, in my opinion, you're right, George Lucas has purposely left it ambiguous whether Anakin's turn into Vader was part of the predetermined course of events or did Anakin take the detour all on his own when he became Vader.

And you nailed it: "The prophecy misread may have been." Yoda is explaining to the audience that the Jedi don't really know what is going on because they're just mortals and they don't have a clue what this prophecy even means. They're just chumps like us here in the real world. How can they understand the meaning of life when they don't even know what this prophecy is? The Force is just a word that they use to describe divinity but they're just like us and they just use words to descripe divinity but it doesn't mean they understand it or even truly know if it exists.

Palpatine even says "the great mystery". So if he's calling it a mystery then you know none of these other character know the meaning of life.

Lucas did this same stuff with the Indy Jones movies: In "Temple of Doom", did the plane just crash because the pilots dumped the fuel or did the Hindu God really make the plane fall from the sky so Indy would rescue the children? Or was is both?

See I was never saying it has to be the way I see it or the way you guys see it. I say it can be both and it just depends on the perspective. To me what Lucas has created is kind of like looking at illusion art but he's done it with a story.

You know art like this stuff.

[image=http://liveingrace.org/images/uploads/impossibleconstruction_www.fun.portal.bg_thumb.jpg]

 

The ability to choose is what I said was an absolute factor in the tale, not the choices they made. If it was intended for Anakin to fall, then the will of the force is in conflict with itself. Just as the Biblical passage points out; the devil cannot divide his own kingdom. The will of the force is to be in balance; Anakin falling away did not progress that purpose and infact caused its' regression. Anakin could have sided with Mace and become all that 'the chosen one' was built up to be, according to the Jedi Archives ie a legendary figure of myth and prophecy. Instead he "chose" his own agenda over the agenda of all that was good and righteous. That choice was counter to 'balance to the force' and therefore never part of the plan to end the darkside rule of the Sith.

Also the Jedi dabbled in prophecy and lore. It was part of their heritage but it didn't define the nature of the universe. There's nothing to prove the prophecy was even real. As far as I'm concerned the prophecy only holds water because Anakin chose to throw Palpatine down the reactor shaft in his final moments. That was the act that gave the prophecy a basis for "belief" by those who looked back on the tale (namely us the audience) thousands of years after it occured. It's no accident the films begin with "A Long time ago ..". The idea is to show us a story that happened in the ancient past and because we are witnessing its' survival from then to now; implies that in some circle there was a belief that granted the tale worthy of preservation.

It's the same with the tale of the Christ. According to Christian belief, a man named Jesus of Nazareth fullfilled all the 'predictions' of the Old Testement. And part of that fullfillment was the intentional volunteering for the death on the cross. If Jesus had made the choice 'not' to do that, then Christianity as we know it would not exist today. And ofcourse this all depends on 'our choice' if we want to believe the story ever occured in the first place.

Now I'll concede the idea that Anakin may have been destined to fall as part of the prophecy on two conditions; one, that the will of the force was only a myth and that that the force had no will of its' own but was merely an energy source. And two, that the original version of prophecy itself had been tampered with over the generations; which isn't an uncommon concept.

Myth gains its' power of influence by its' ability to convince people that what it claims has divine roots. Theoretically, if Darth Vader had let his son d

 

I don't have the time today to devote to all your points but I just wanted to point out that it is my belief that mortals are not looking back on this story. It appears to me that the story is being perused by the higher power that perhaps once watched over the mortals of the story. That's why the crawl is set against a cosmic background and as the written story rolls into infinity, the camera pans down or up, exclusive to E2, and the frame fills with the mortals' story. Now if you read that without thinking I'm out of mind then perhaps you'll keep reading on:


George remarks to Rob Coleman that the story of Star Wars is actually recounted by R2-D2 to the Keeper of the Whills, one hundred years after Return Of The Jedi. --The Making Of Star Wars Revenge Of The Sith

What are the Whills?

"Originally, I was trying to have the story be told by somebody else; there was somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events. I eventually dropped this idea, and the concepts behind the Whills turned into the Force. But the Whills became part of this massive amount of notes, quotes, background information that I used for the scripts; the stories were actually taken from the 'Journal of the Whills'." --Lucas, The Annotated Screenplays

Did he really drop idea or did he just drop an idea that the mortals believed in gods called Whills who were guiding the mortals to their destinies? You know like the Greek mortals of Greek mythology believed in the very Greek gods who were guiding them to their destinies.