FREEZE FRAMES - Vignettes of life in the Jedi Temple - UPDATED 11/19/03 Obi-centric, cradle to purge

OK. Got it.

 

Again, amazing story. Poor Xanatos. I am such a sucker for the dark, tormented soul. I once wrote some fics about Xanatos but can't post them here. hehe! Anyway, I loved writing about him so it was a joy to read this!

 

Oh Xan! Loved it Cyn! I'd be in bliss if you wrote about nothing but him and Obi!

 

Wow! You posted with lots of cute little troublemaker Obi! Yay! Great post. Hope to see more relatively soon!

 

As always, you weave your magic and turn once one dimensional characters into true human beings. Your portrait of Xanatos is terrific. People driven by evil are as complex as anyone else and are not evil all of the time. It was great to see Xanatos remember Obi-Wan and know he was going to have a harder time because of it. Like you said, he is still on his path and like all of us he is constantly given new paths and choices and must constantly make decisions that will shape his future.

Also, I loved your portrait of Kit. Great idea to have the problem children have to accompany the young ones on field trips. Maybe in this AU, Bruck won't die and he will have to go on every field trip scheduled throughout his padawan days. Of course, little Obi with his slingshot (loved that) will have to accompany a few himself in a few years. haha

Can't wait for more.

 

As usual, you guys are great, and it's a pleasure to write for you.

BUT - it is entirely too quiet around here. At last count, we have NO controversies in progress - and that just will NOT do.

So, basically, one of you guys needs to start a good, juicy fight - comprende?
And I'm there to back you up.

OK?

CYN

 

Push the furniture back, Cyn's spoiling for a Saturday night fight.

Sorry, I have a headache.

 

Hmmmmm! Maybe I should rephrase. The last time I started a 'simple little debate', WWIII broke out - while I was asleep in my little bed!

We definitely do NOT want that again; it was a bloody mess.

So I should stipulate that - on MY threads - we observe M of Q rules - and behave like true ladies and gentlemen.

If I'm not mistaken, the last time, it all started over someone's innocent contention that Anakin - in AotC - behaved somewhat like a stalker.

Apparently, in some necks of the woods, them's fightin' words.

Maybe we can aim for gentility - as in Dooku's duelling style as opposed to Qui-Gon's. Oh, boy - bor-ing.

Come on - somebody has to have an idea!

CYN

 

Um? Seeings how I have a one track mind right now how about, Who was a better Padawan? Xanatos-Obi-Anakin? Granted two of them turned [ I only count Anakin but thats just me ] Still they had how many years before they actually did. Stupid? Well shoot Cyn I tried!

 

Hmmmmmmmmm, a controversy?

Well, I'm not too good at starting those, but I have to say, the amount of threads that have popped up lately stating that Obi-Wan was too hard on Anakin in AOTC is quite odd to me. IMO, Obi-Wan was most definitely not too hard on Anakin, and I can cite many examples! Well, this is probably totally off the subject, but it was just a thought!

Anyway, can't wait for the next post, Cyn!

 

Ahhh, too many fanfics, too little time! Believe me, I'm reading these, but time just seems to be elusive for me lately. However, it's nice to take a break and relax with a good fic, and they seem to be in ample supply of late.

I love this latest story of yours. Interesting to see Xanatos in a different light, perhaps he isn't as dark as he seems.....something to think about anyway, your stories always make me think. I also liked how you tied in your other Xanatos fic and you've got Kit in here too, he's awesome!

As for controversy.... *ducks behind a chair* don't look at me, I'm not one to start fights but I'll gladly watch.....from a safe distance

 

Awesome writing as allways CYN. I love the darker scenes you write.

In your opinion who is the better master, Obi or Qui?

I'll gladly join in any fight, but i don't have any kindling tonight.

 

Okay, I'm in for the controversy. However, please be polite...
Obi-Wan was an exceptional poor teacher. Oh, oh, the hackles are being raised even as I type. Anakin's obvious problems aside... Use of sarcasm is most often met with defensive postures and misunderstanding. I have met few people who understand and appreciate it and many more who just fight back at the assumed slurs.
Case in point - I cringe at the "good job" comment by Obi-Wan in AOTC. It's very funny but an incredibly poor comment to make. Anakin did his best trying to rescue his master and obviously failing. Now, Obi-Wan is rubbing his face in it. Of course, Anakin would be angry at such words. I would as well and I'm not going over to the darkside.

Don't get me wrong. I adore Obi-Wan but I also see that his training of his student (or any student for that matter) is just awful.

Let the games begin.

 

Please forgive me Cyn and diane. You know that normally and I am more than willing to jump into a rant at moments notice, but II have jsut spent the last 3 days writing an opus or two of my own called a trial brief and an Appellate Court Writ. I can barely type right now let alone try to argue my way out of a wet paper bag. I'll check back on Monday or Tuesday after the trial and se if anyone has continued the squirmish.

\As for the 2 posts, what an enjoyable read. I especially like a little tyke who is ready to turn the tables on anyone including a jedi master I loved the addition of Kit Fisto- he found out that old saying is certainly true...payback is a b***h!

 

but I have to say, the amount of threads that have popped up lately stating that Obi-Wan was too hard on Anakin in AOTC is quite odd to me.

I've noticed that too, don't worry, it will pass. If anything it seems just the opposite to me, he wasn't hard enough on him. Obi-Wan seemed to go out of his way to be understanding, to try and connect with him. Obi-Wan sees Anakin is nervous about meeting Padme, so he jokes with him and tries to get him to relax while pleasantly directing to handle things in the proper Jedi fashion. So what does Anakin proceed to do as a reward for his lighthearted, affectionate way of dealing with it? Anakin blatantly disrespects him in front of Padme and all Anakin gets is a fairly softspoken, though frustrated, warning about how they won't go through this again and he would have to learn to follow his lead. It is absolutely central to a Jedi padawan's training that he learn humility, whether he likes what he's being told to do or not. Then literally a minute later Obi-Wan is reassuring him that Padme was in fact glad to see them and simply directing him to start ehecking security. Then he's showing concern about his tiredness and trying to get him to open up about what is troubling him, he's warm and approachable(and in fact he's the one doing the approaching).

Personally I'd take Obi-Wan as teacher over...certain others...anyday. Obi-Wan'll argue with you until dawn but still at least keep communication open whereas...certain others...are the kind of guy who puts up the newspaper and just stops listening to you. And Anakin appears to be much the same way. When it isn't what they want to hear, they just try to shut you or it out.

As for "good job", this isn't daycare. This is more like the Marines and in the Marines a stunt like Anakin's would get a lot stronger response than a slightly sarcastic "good job" however well-meaning. And again it isn't something that Obi-Wan harbors, seconds later he's joking with Anakin in the face of a deadly situation.

Not to mention, some people make a big deal over "all" of Obi-Wan's supposed sarcasm in his training but I believe this is the only time Obi-Wan is actually sarcastic towards Anakin. He may criticize him for certain things, but that's the only "sarcastic" comment he directs towards him and under the circumstances not particularly harsh. Especially seeing as Anakin is trying to wriggle out of it. Notice how he tries to use the absolute classic deflecting techniques by first focusing on how he did what Obi-Wan requested--transmitting the message to Coruscant--and then tries to make it seem like a good thing "so we decided to come and rescue", all in attempts to deflect attention from the fact that, um, he was absolutely not where he was supposed to be and just made an already bad situation worse.

Anakin should never have been anywhere near Geonosis. Not only is he directly disobeying Master Windu in being there but he's also showing a general disrespect for all Obi-Wan has attempted to instill in his during his training in doing so. He wasn't where he was supposed to be in the first place, which certainly didn't help when it came to Obi-Wan's being captured(notice Obi-Wan is discovered by the Geonosian when he's searching for Anakin's location when it turns out he isn't on Naboo, I don't think that's a coincidence for Lucas to have chosen just that point to show the Geonosian seeing Obi-Wan). Then he shows up, Padme in tow, in the Arena. I think Obi-Wan showed a lot of restraint in that scene.

How better to honor Obi-Wan than to actually show he hasn't wasted ten years of his life trying to teach you the ways of the Jedi by not risking your own life and the life of the Senator whom you were supposed to be guarding(if Anakin has really tried he could have gotten her to stay, she most likely wouldn't have gone to Geonosis if he'd insisted on staying where they were and used something he appears to be incapable of doing, solid reasoning) on a useless "rescue" mission which mainly serves to give the Conf

 

Ah, Naw - I can always count on you!!

And, yes, I think this is a perfectly valid subject for discussion.

Was Obi-Wan a perfect teacher? No - even I won't make that claim. But I think maybe I see it from a slightly different perspective.

Think of the relationship between QGJ & OWK. Aside from the firm (rigid?) control exercised by the Master, what else stands out and demands to be noticed? AHEM - Qui-Gon is certainly old enough to be Obi-WAn's father - and more. Much of his knowledge and what he chooses to pass on to his padawan has been gleaned from a lifetime of experience and many years of incredibly complex, widely varied missions as a knight before taking on an apprentice. No matter how you slice it - and no matter how much you agree or disagree with his methods, you must admit that this was a tremendous advantage for him. There is no teacher quite as effective as experience. Now - Obi-Wan had plenty of mission experience - as a padawan - but none - zero, zilch, nada - as a knight. That opportunity to learn and to grow and to become what he was meant to become was denied to him - and we'll ignore, for the moment, that it was denied because of the single-minded, self-serving arrogance of a Master-gone-off-the-deep-end - and rendered all hot and bothered by a phenomenal midi-chlorian count.

Aside - and another subject for debate? - there are people with IQs upwards of 160, people who can compose great music - or figure out complex quantum physics - or intuitively understand logic problems that would send you and I to bed with a headache - or - well, you get the idea - people with massive, innate talents and abilities - and some of them are absolutely the scum of the earth, from a moral perspective. So why would the simple existence of a skyrocketed midi-chlorian count send Qui-Gon into paroxysms (sp.?) of delight? I mean, did that - by itself - guarantee that the kid would not grow up to be Hannibal Lector? Sorry - I digress.

Anyway, back to my original thought - if I can find it. The point I believe I was trying to make is that Obi-Wan never was allowed to develop the baseline to become a superior teacher. However - - - (You knew there had to be a however coming - didn't you?) - while I'm prepared to concede that he may not have been the perfect teacher, I believe, more importantly, that he was the perfect Master - that he was the only chance that Anakin had to avoid his dark fate.

Qui-Gon - for better or worse - was a father figure to Obi. That was never an option between Obi-Wan and Anakin. What WAS possible was a Big Brother - Little Brother arrangement, and I think that was what Obi-Wan opted for. Furthermore, I think he was right. It's been pointed out repeatedly - by a variety of posters - that the rigid Council approach to training was a poor choice for Anakin because of his background.
Obi-Wan tried a different tack - although he could not avoid the Council's influence entirely. Not even Qui-Gon Jinn could manage THAT, if you recall.

In AotC, did you ever hear Obi raise his voice? Did you ever see him snap at Anakin - even when he had just cause? Everything he said - every direction he gave - was spoken in that lovely, lilting, help-me-now-cause-I-need-a-cold-shower voice, and completely devoid of anger. And the minor lapse into sarcasm? Tell me - have you ever listened to young adults and/or teen-agers talk to each other? Sarcasm, my friends, is THE language of youth; it's their version of clever repartee.

Obi-Wan was certainly not perfect - but I believe he showed, in every way possible, that he cared for his apprentice, that he was willing to lay down his life for him - and if Anakin chose to ignore that gift, chose to concentrate instead on his own narrow visions, that was his choice. In the end, it was Anakin who turned his back on his Master; the reverse was never true.

Oh, my, what a lovely thing to wake up to on a Sunday morning! You guys are the best.

Gotta go for a bit. Having champagne brunch this AM - but I'll be back later

 

I totally agree with naw-ibo.

The only sarcastic remark that I can recall in AOTC being directed at Anakin was the "good job" comment when they were in the "coloseum" being chained to pillars. Other times Obi-wan just gives gentle, concise and constructive criticism.
Throughout the film Anakin restates that Obi-wan is purposefully holding him back, that he (Anakin) is way better than Obi and more powerful. While the more powerful MIGHT be true, he is not better than Obi in any way as is evidenced through his behavior and actions. He is impatient, arrogant, selfish, and seems to be closed-minded. Plus he has no qualms about using mind control for not so honorable or good purposes. This shows that no matter how hard Obi tried to teach and instill the Jedi qualities, Anakin either chose to ignore his training or never actually learned the lessons in the first place. There is only so much a teacher can do to teach/train a student, the actual learning is up to the student to accomplish.
From what was seen of Qui's teaching style in TPM, I'd have to say he didn't try as hard while training Obi to be understanding, caring and open to approach as Obi tried to be with Anakin. Therefore, I'd say Obi was a better Master eventhough Anakin didn't appreciate it or take it to heart.

 

Well, the debate rages on. It is always facinating to see how one turn-of-phrase or one gesture can be interpreted differently by so many. It is always a matter of life experience - each unique.

I do adore Obi-Wan. He obviously cares for Anakin and does try to be the best Master he can be. But, I would not want him for a teacher. Sarcasm may be the language of some teenagers but it usually leads to more misunderstanding and hurt feelings than the correct actions. My husband, who has taught teenagers for many years with great success, cringes at some of the lines in the movie (good job being one of them). Thankfully, they took out the line "But you haven't learned anything." which sends both of us gritting our teeth and muttering. Never, ever say that to anyone. It just shuts down communication (and it wasn't true in this case anyway).

As for the good job comment, I'm sorry but Anakin was acting out of love for his Master when he went to rescue him. Yes, he was disobeying his mandate and his Master but love and the incredible possibility of loss (especially after just losing his mother) made it impossible not to disobey. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

Yes, sarcasm is sprinkled throughout the movie. The whole conversation in the Coruscant chase is rife with it. However, I would say that it was appropriate and funny there. Obi-Wan did not appear to be attacking Anakin so much as bantering with him. It's just that Obi-Wan can't seem to turn it off when he needs to...

Obi-Wan did raise his voice to Anakin in the Geonosis flight scene when he was arguing about putting down his ship. But you are right, his tone was almost always calm but subtly impatient (much as a big brother would do). His tone was pretty emphatic in the goodbye scene as Anakin and Padme were leaving (not quite yelling but close).

I do have one drastic disagreement with Naw. The Jedi are NOT the Marines. They may look like them in the arena scene but the characters have stated clearly that they are not soldiers (Mace Windu- we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. Qui-Gon We can only protect you, not fight a war for you). Marines do not tell you to trust your feelings (which is what Anakin did when he went to rescue Obi-Wan). So, to me, Obi-Wan's good job comment would have been better said as a thank you rather than an admonisment.

Actually, it's pretty funny. The consensis here is that Anakin was wrong for disobeying Obi-Wan and trying to rescue him. Am I correct? But, don't you think if Qui-Gon were in the same mess, Obi-Wan would have rushed headlong to rescue his Master? Just a thought. There's a possible story there (flashbacks and all).

As for Qui-Gon being a better teacher than Obi-Wan in training Anakin, gasp, I don't think so either. They are both unsuitable for this bright, highly adept, fearful, needy kid. But then it wouldn't be Star Wars, would it?

Okay. I'll talk more later but I have to go write now.

 

diane - I don't necessarily disagree with you about Anakin rushing to Geonosis to attempt to rescue Obi-Wan - and, yes, I do think Obi-Wan would have done the same thing to rescue Qui-Gon. However, I think Qui-Gon - Mr. Find-your-calm-center himself, would not have been content with a mere sardonic comment. I think he'd have gone ballistic - and therein lies the difference I perceive in the style of the two Masters.

I think Qui-Gon sought to instruct by virtue of the force of his personality. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, sought to teach by sharing the experience and exploring possibilities WITH Anakin.

As for the sarcasm, I think we're not that far apart on agreeing - but I doubt we'll get any closer. YOu (and correct me if I'm wrong) seem to believe that it was used acidly - to wound or to humiliate. I, on the other hand, think that sardonic wit is simply Obi-Wan's style. We saw it - in a slightly subdued manner - in TPM, and we see it again here. Of course, it doesn't hurt that it's probably also my style; there is certainly a bit of sting in it - but the humor softens the impact - or that's my take on it anyway. Now that's MY kind of wit!

But let's take it one step further - and ask the ultimate question in this line of exploration. Do you believe that Obi-WAn was responsible for Anakin's eventual turn to the Darkside - due to his lack of skill as a teacher - or plain old bad luck - or what? If not, to what do you attribute it?

CYN

 

I'm sorry but Anakin was acting out of love for his Master when he went to rescue him. Yes, he was disobeying his mandate and his Master but love and the incredible possibility of loss (especially after just losing his mother) made it impossible not to disobey. I wouldn't have wanted it any other way.

I would have. He should have stayed where he was. He didn't disobey out of love for his master, he disobeyed out of love for Padme. That whole scene was all about showing the dynamics of their relationship, it actually had very little to do with Obi-Wan. That isn't to say he didn't love his master, BUT he if he was doing something out of love for his master, he would have stayed put, no matter how hard it would have been. Love for Padme(and that "aren't you just the cutest little thing" smile he gives her) is why he disobeyed Mace. Doing it out of fear of personal loss, particularly after a doing what Anakin did to the Tuskes, is actually a disaster waiting to happen particularly for a Jedi and hardly anything to be encouraged.

More important than simply obeying orders, though, Anakin needed that time to NOT be in the middle of the mayhem precisely BECAUSE his mother had just been killed and he'd gone dark side on the Tuskens backsides. Anakin in such a situation shouldn't have been anywhere near combat, especially one which was possibly so emotionally involved.

But, don't you think if Qui-Gon were in the same mess, Obi-Wan would have rushed headlong to rescue his Master? Just a thought.

Actually I don't believe Obi-Wan would have gone after Qui-Gon in the same situation. Although if he did I definitely agree with CYN, he'd not have gotten off with anything so light as a slightly sardonic comment. But what I think would happen is that he would have dearly wanted to and it would have torn him to make the decision not to but I think he would have done his duty and stayed where he was. As he should do.

Obi-Wan is on this mission to begin with in order to investigate the assassination attempts on a leading Senate reformer, sure he discovered something much bigger along the way, but the protection of her life was still part of the plan--by doing what Anakin and Padme did, they basically make a large part of Obi-Wan's hard work, of his risk, the possibility that he'd be giving up his life in the sort of service he'd chosen to live by, for absolute naught. To honor Obi-Wan, they had a responsibility to keep themselves out of trouble as much as possible so that they could do their own duties. Anakin had a responsibility to show he'd learned and grown as a Jedi. And I think that Obi-Wan would have come to see it that way if he were in the same position with Qui-Gon.

But if he was about to disobey orders, he wouldn't have done so at the impetus of "Well he said you have to protect me and I'm going..."(to which Obi-Wan most likely would say, "Mace also told us to STAY HERE", funny how Anakin and Padme just seemed to completely gloss over that part of the orders)--he'd call Mace right up and say, "I'm sorry but I don't think I can do that. I know I'm disobeying orders but I believe this is what I have to do. If we are successful I will except any consequences for my actions as the Council and my Master deem fit". Straight out and upfront.

Also with regards to going to Geonosis and just generally being where you are expected to be--the Jedi depend on their fellow Jedi, on their padawans to do their duty like that because, like in the military or really any organization where people have certain parts to play in a whole action, if they aren't it could possibly risk other lives. People are depending on them to be where they should be and doing the duty they should be so they in turn can do their own jobs effectively. If you aren't there, you are the weak link that may very likely cause the whole thing to fall apart.

I was using the Marines comment not as a direct comparison but as a way to compare the seriousness and strictness of Jedi training. Actually if one looks at

 

AHEM. What Naw said. I can NOT possibly say it any better.



CYN

 

AMEN! Took the words right otta my mouth!

 

My opinions on the subject (I know, who asked) have essentially been stated by both Cyn and Naw, but to throw my two cents in.

I don't believe that Anakin went after Obi-Wan out of love for his Master...he went because he didn't want to seem a coward or unloyal to Padme. Where was duty when Padme fell off the ship over Geonosis. Duty wasn't quite so important as love then, was it? Yes, he DID stay, but it took a whole lot more convincing to get him to stay on the ship and do his duty then it did for him to go to Geonosis. (and as the Obi-Wan's yelling on the ship...he kinda had to. If you'll notice, he yells the whole time because you can't be heard for the engine noise if you don't).

As to the merits of Obi-Wan's teaching....out of ten years, we only get to see the movie's worth of lessons. Agreed that sarcasm if often a poor technique in instruction. One could argue that you don't know if Anakin's arrogance is the result of trying to prove himself OR is Obi-Wan trying to take him down a few pegs because of his arrogance. My personal (and probably biased) opinion is that sarcasm is just part of Obi-Wan, as shown in TPM. And Anakin's arrogance is all his own. Though Yoda himself says that overconfidence is a trait far to common in Jedi today (did anyone else feel he was directing that towards Obi-Wan? My friends don't agree with me and I thought it was obvious).

Whether Obi-Wan's sarcasm is appropriate in teaching or not, it is a character trait that is his and must be accepted as much as Qui-Gon's seeming closed-off approach in teaching Obi-Wan. Sometimes we have to learn that certain things about the people in our lives are just part of who they are, to be accepted or not, even if that part of them may hurt our feelings and/or egos. I'm sure we all can think of things our parents did growing up that were just part of who they were that hurt, but upon looking back, we know that's just their personality. We love them anyway (for the majority of us I'd think).

If I've managed to keep any semblance of a point, I'd be surprised. I end now wondering if I even know what my point was

 

Well said, KOW - and yes, I did think Yoda's remark was directed at Obi-Wan - though MY reaction was that someone should have had the gumption to direct the SAME remark to the little green troll.

What ticked me off - repeatedly - was the tendency of the Council to discount what Obi-WAn tried to tell them. Who was in better position to judge the condition of his padawan - and the risk in sending him out on his own - and who got told - more or less - to shut up and do as he was told?

I do agree that the sarcasm (and I prefer to think of it as droll, dry wit) is a part of who Obi-WAn is - and if Anakin chooses to go Darkside because he objects to his Master's sly sense of humor, it seems pretty obvious that it was unavoidable.

Note - there is a tremendous difference between gentle needling - done in a fashion typical of the personality of the person doing the needling - and cruel, vicious malice. Say what you will - no one will EVER convince me that Obi-WAn had a single malicious bone in his body.

Such a lovely, perfect body (sigh) could not possibly contain such a vile, ugly thing.

Working on a new post - but it's coming slow for some reason.

Later.

CYN

 

I have two brothers and they were constantly making sarcastic remarks to eachother.They bickered alot.Obi-Wan and Anakin were only what ten or twelve years apart age wise? They were more like siblings then teacher/student.Is that Obi-Wan's fault? I dont think so.If anything he was too easy on the kid.

Qui-Gon can't take all the credit for how Obi-Wan turned out.I think Palpy could have raised and trained him and he would have turned out allright.Anakin just had one of those personalities that no matter what was done for him he was going to screw up.We all know people like that dont we?

Thats just my two cents!