From my point of view the Jedi are Evil...

- Now to the biggest thing everyone is reading wrong. Palpatine tells Vader Padme is dead and then Anakin goes force crazy and Palpatine smiles. Everyone says this is Palpatine lying to Anakin. No, he's not. He's telling the truth and looking sad until Anakin goes crazy showing he still is very strong with the force. He's smiling because Anakin is not dead, he's not just some shell of what he used to be, he still had great power.


Are you serious? Palps is smiling because he knows that in that moment of force-induced rage that Vader is fully his. He knows that there is nothing else for Anakin Skywalker to live for. He fully belongs to Palpatine now. Looking sad? Give me a break.

 

From my point of view the Jedi are Evil...

lol, ive heard it all! IMAO!

the jedi didnt go killing around children and hundreds of jedi. the sith only did that.

I think its common sense, to anyone in this world, if you are a normal person that the jedi are the good guys, and not evil


SWA.

 

the jedi didnt go killing around children and hundreds of jedi. the sith only did that.


A backstory is that the Jedi killed a lot of Sith a long time ago. Whether they killed Sith children too, we dont know. We do know Sith children are an extinct species.

 

A backstory is that the Jedi killed a lot of Sith a long time ago. Whether they killed Sith children too, we dont know. We do know Sith children are an extinct species.

You can talk EU all you want to, but this happens to be the ROTS board. We are talking about what has been seen onscreen. And I think the movies speak for themselves.

 

You can talk EU all you want to

True, I dont like to talk EU. On the otherhand, nothing in the movies suggests that the Jedi wouldnt kill a Sith brat if they came across one. They would practically have to.

 

Well, if he was a brat.......

 

hang on to your freedoms


a direct quote from ian McD

 

After having seen all 6 movies, in my opinion the general message of SW as a whole (or at least one of the running themes) is that it is wrong to build walls around yourself. That to live a good, meaningful life, balance is necessary. As the ancient Greeks put it: In life, do everything, but with good measure.
The right decision is not always being 'good'. Justice is not always about 'good' triumphing over 'evil'. I find Luke and Vader to be the most interesting Jedi/Sith respectively, because they are defined by the choices they make and not the lack thereof.

 

very good post Bazooka. that is definatly true.."good and evil" ,as it is explained in the movies, greatly depend on our own POV. To me evil is Palpatine. There is not one redeeming quality about him. Bail to me is "good"..saving Obi and Yoda,adopting Leia at very high risk to himself,staying true to his beliefs. The rest of the characters are varying shades of grey,..which makes for a much more interesting movie

 

defining good and evil in the context of star wars, became very difficult with this new film. its one of those instinces that the deleted scens would have helped tremondously. the beginning of the rebellion would have defined the evil of the empire a little bit more.


but I did like the bluring of the lines. mace does seem to have it in his mind to remove the chancellor and place the jedi in charge. even suggests so in the meeting.he uses the same words palpitine used in reference to dooku, when trying to get anakin to help him. "too dangerous to live".

what the sith do to the jedi can, from their point of view be seen as self defence. but the fact that palpitine played both sides is the sign of his evil. he used the jedi for his own uses and then when they were in the way eliminated them.


no question the sith and the empire, palpitine are all evil. which makes vader the most tragic character in the saga. he was doing what he thought was right.

but he was also out of control. he had no will of his own. anakin truly ceased to exist when he took the name vader. what he did in the temple, it's just chilling.

 

How about only allowing the training of toddlers who are removed from their parents and taken away to the Core of the Galaxy to be trained as Knights as Jedi, so they won't develop so-called attachments?

Is that evil?

No marriage at all for the Knights. Is that evil?

The above are both contained in the Jedi so-called Code. Is the Code evil, or is it in the middle? Or is it good?

 

-The Jedi abduct children as infants in order to indoctrinate them into their religion.
The Jedi did not kidnap children. If anything, they were saving them, because any Force-sensative child could have deadly revelations with their power if they did not learn about it.

-The Jedi profess "knowledge and defense, never attack", but spend their whole lives training to fight, and insist on leading all armies.
Defense is quite different from offense, my friend. Since when is preparation a bad thing? They are peaceful people, but they will fight in defense if necessary. Who said they insisted on leading those armies? The Jedi were quite hesitant on leading armies into the Clone War. The Jedi were named Generals too, and I bet it wasn't even the Jedi who named themselves that....(glances at Senate and Palps)

-The Jedi consider themselves above the law, hell, they consider themselves to be the law.
If that's the case, why did they report to the Senate? Why did they consult with the Senate and Chancellors? They did not seem themselves like that, they were the protectors of the Republic, for which they loved.

- The Jedi feel it is within their rights to cheat, steal, and bully to get their way, because their purpose is so superior to any other beings.
Hmm. Give me an example of this. Tell me the when Yoda stole from the candy store? Now you're accusing them of being hoodlums. Qui-Gon was known to be a rogue, and did the Jedi Council often frowned upon. Other than him, the Jedi were not like this.

- The Jedi feel it's perfectly within their rights to use the Republic's resources to create a massive army, and to do so without the knowledge of the Senate or it's leader.
Excuse me, what do you mean Republic's resources? Master Sifo-Dyias asked for that army, as he saw what was coming for the Republic he loved..war. He did it because he loved and cared for his Republic and didn't want it to collapse by Separtists. That's why he contacted the Kamino cloners. Then Dooku found out and killed him for it and paid for the army.

-The Jedi feel justified in completely destroying differing religions for the sole reason that they are different.
Where the heck is this from? Where's your source for this eh? I'll consider that an accusation until I see some sort of source.

-The Jedi feel justified in maiming sentient beings at will, and have no issues with altering others minds for their own benfit.
This relates to your previous statement. I'm assuming you're speaking of mind tricks? Well, usually these mind tricks are only used for good, not personal benefit. I mean, if Mace went out every night and tricked people into jumping off buildings, yeah that would be bad.

-The Jedi feel justified in ending the life of a being because his values and ideals are in contradiction to those of the Jedi, and that cannot be permited.
Wrong. Where's that ever happen? If you're speaking of Sidious,they did try to bring him in peacefully, it was Sidious that got violent. He deserved to die anyway and was too dangerous to be kept alive. And if you bring up the 'poor guy was unarmed' then what about Mace after Anakin's slicing? Mace was literally unarmed I may add and Sidious threw him out the window.

-The Jedi feel justified in eliminating the legal leader of the Republic, and seizing control of the galaxy, because they think it's right, and who can argue with their superior morality?
Well, I don't know, maybe because the leader was a deadly Sith Lord, responsible for billions of death already? I mean, he's only been responsible for the deaths of so many innocent lives and stuff, why would that matter? He started this war for his ascension to power, to become a tyrant, what good is that? The Jedi are swoen to uphold the ideals and policies of the Republic. They are not to simply obey the Chancellor no matter what like drones, as they are to be loyal to the Republic and its ideals. Palpatine violated those rules from the start and there's the tiny fact he'

 

my mate has the same theory, but it's just bantha fodder. the jedi are good.

 

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers Time Magazine Interview, 1999.

The Sith are the natural enemy of the Jedi. As George Lucas describes it, the Sith were once in control of the galaxy 1000 years in the past. Unfortunately, the Sith's hunger for conquest got the better of them-so many Sith lords were vying for ultimate control that it led to infighting among their ranks. Such internecine struggles were exploited by the Jedi Knights of the era, and they were able to turn the tide and defeat the Sith.

As Ki-Adi-Mundi states in Episode I, the Sith have been extinct for a millenium; however, not all were wiped out. A surviving Sith Lord sought to rebuild the order, to retake the galaxy, and to take revenge. This Sith Lord realized the dangers of having too many in the order, so he kept his existence a secret. It would be a long time coming, but he carefully plotted revenge. There would be only two Sith Lords at a time, a master and an apprentice, working in secret, planting the seeds for their eventual rise.

By Episode III, the Sith are ready to reveal themselves. There's no more need for subterfuge, no more need for skulking in the shadows. Darth Sidious, the Sith mastermind, will make good on a 1000-year plot to finally avenge the fallen order, destroy the Jedi Knights, and retake command of the galaxy.

--Star Wars Insider, issue 78, page 60

"The Sith are the archenemies of the Jedi," George Lucas explained, "and for a long time, they ruled the universe until the Jedi came along and got rid of them. The Sith characters in the previous Star Wars films were Darth Vader and the other apprentices-Darth Maul from Episode I and Count Dooku, or Darth Tyrannus, from Episode II and the soon-to-be released Episode III. The evil master Sith in all of the films is Darth Sidious, who becomes Emperor of the universe."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Insider, issue 78, page 80

Though Lucas has said that the Sith were nearly wiped out by the Jedi, they also turned on each other. So it is very much possible that the Sith killed any children that were in their Order. Or it's very possible that there aren't any Sith Younglings.

 

<<Granted it was a trap set by a Sith, but it was Yoda who brought in the troops starting the clone war in order to save just 3 people. One must question Yodas wisdom and foresight on that decision. The Jedi did blindly fall very easily into sith traps on their own accord. >>


Actually, Yoda was trying to save all the Jedi that were fighting the Seperatists, not just 3 people. And he was trying to defeat the Seperatists as well in order to end the war.

Personally, I think people start threads like these just to start trouble...not sure why they get their kicks that way I mean, no one can watch these films and SERIOUSLY think the jedi are evil.

 

I don't think evil is the correct word. More like, mistaken. But that doesn't mean I side with the sith. True, I agree with some aspects of the sith, but not others...like I think Palps is an insane freak. Basically my point is that I really dont agree with the Jedi about a lot of stuff. I think they're mistaken, and they handle some of their situations incorrectly. But that doesnt automatically make me agree with the sith killing children or anything like that. Both sides have their faults, some just more than others.

 

"How about only allowing the training of toddlers who are removed from their parents and taken away to the Core of the Galaxy to be trained as Knights as Jedi, so they won't develop so-called attachments?
Is that evil?
No marriage at all for the Knights. Is that evil?
The above are both contained in the Jedi so-called Code. Is the Code evil, or is it in the middle? Or is it good?"

TheLightSide

i understand what your saying about the jedi forbidding marriage...but let me try to explain.
the jedi forbid attachments. i see this as a good thing, attachment can be posessive. HOWEVER attachment is not the same as freindships, loving someone...i know you've heard this argument before, so ill stop there and hope you understand. but basicaly, this is a good philosophy, that proves itself to be the right one, not just in the PT, but in the OT as well. you can care deeply for someone, without becoming attached. you can love someone, without becoming posessive of them, and without letting your love for them blind you.

now the jedi knew that when you fall in love, the connection is so deep, so intense, its nearly impossible to NOT DEVELOP AN ATTACHMENT. thats why they forbid it...because its incredibly diffiuclt to keep your head strait. they figured that if your in love, you cant remain detached...and since attachment is posessive, and leads to the darkside, they forbid it. the order and its members were aware of deep love becoming an attchment, so they were content to have relationships remain as friends, and instead chose to love each other as brothers/sisters etc.

now were the jedi wrong? ultimatly....yes. it is possible to care for someone incredibly deeply, and not allow your care for them become selfish, posessive...an attachment. but certainly you can see the logic behind the code's edict? dont you agree its nearly impossible to fall in love without becoming attached, because it is. the point is, you need to not allow your attachments to dominate you. dont let your relationships cloud your judgment of whats right and wrong. remeber, a jedi's life is about sacrifice, and no matter how much the order changes, there is no way around it. a jedi must be willing to sacrifce him or herself for the greater good...and that includes letting go of those you care about.

now was the code evil? certainly not, and i feel sorry for you if you think it is. you bring up forbiding marriage to the knights and the masters, and insinuate (i think thats what your doing) that that is evil. mistaken yes, but certainly not evil. well intentioned, and almost completly right, but just because there exists a lifestlye that makes this particularly edict outdated, doesnt make it, or the order evil. and remeber, the jedi were willing to sacrifice their personal lives for the greater good, and most didnt have qualms with it.


and jedi being "stolen"? sorry, that is just not the case. chldren aren't stolen. they are identifed by the order as jedi potenial, and then it is up to the parents to decide. notice how qui gon brings up anakin possibly being a jedi to shmi..and she seems to be eager to let him go.

i understand everything your saying TheLightSide, but sometimes i think your pre-occupation with "jedi having personal lives" blinds you to the greater message.

 

Sorry I'm late coming into this, and don't even know if I'll get a reply, but wanted to ask anyway...
Would we even be talking about the Jedi being evil if we hadn't come to like Anakin so much? And wasn't that GL point in making the PT? Didn't he want to show how evil is not absolute? Watching the OT is so much different now that we know Anakin, Padme and what they had. Isn't that the humanity that is resurected in Vader when he moves to save his son? And as for the Jedi being evil, I don't think so... Antiquated, yes. In the book, Yoda admits this and takes responsibility for not allowing the order to grow. An interresting thought...Would Vader have killed the emperor if it had been anyone but his son? Therefore, what part does attachment take in restoring balance to the force?
Just random thoughts.

 

I don't think evil is the correct word.

GL seems to think otherwise. of course people will have reasons not to take that explaination. ahhhhhh well.

 

^are you trying to sy GL thinks the jedi are evil?


sorry, i just dont understand your reply

 

from a certain point of view, both Hitler and Bin-Laden are great men.

from a certain point of view, this spider im about to sqaush with a paper towel is the ruler of the known universe.

whats your point?

 

the jedi have strict rules, is why people side with the sith who seem to have none, also how would the jedi order grow, are they now saying attachments aren't so bad?

 

GL doesn't think evil isn't the right word. (if thaat makes any sense.) that is exactly what he called the sith, EVIL, people just want something to argue about and get people riled up.

 

ahhh gotcha

 

the jedi are just cold, they dont have much interest in human feelings