From my point of view the Jedi are Evil...

I think many people are missing the point of this thread... Everyone should know the Jedi are the good guys, yes, but there is a GREY area, where some Jedi have fallen to. To say there is only black and white, good and evil is wrong. Both sides can occasionally do good and bad. What you could say though is that their respective cods/religions (Jedi/Sith) are good and evil - depending on your definition of good and evil. And most people have common values as the Jedi, hence they would be good in most peoples eyes. However, we (most people in the western democracies) also have many values that would oppose the Jedi's code/religion.

To be able to justify Anakins statement, We need to look at things from Anakins point of view and see if we can believe that it would be possible to even fathom the possibility of the Jedi being in the wrong and killing young Jedis as good. And if we do that, we would either think Anakin has some valid reason to believe as he does (knowing his personality) or we would think he is just using words to justify his evil deeds. Because anyone in the world would agree that killing a young child is bad and evil. But let's put an example so we could maybe get into the mindset of the Sith Anakin who now beleives the Jedi are evil - and why he would think he is in the right and the Jedi wrong... Hypothetical Example: let's say a long time before PT, we have Many Sith in existance with many Jedi. The Sith have an academy training Young children to hate and kill Jedis. This is the purpose of these "sith academies". The Jedi develop a new weapon that would allow them to destroy this academy. Do you think Jedis in the mould of Mace and Ki Adi Mundi would not want to use this weapon to destroy the Sith? Yes, maybe they would give an ultimatum - but I think they would eventually use the weapon to kill the Sith, because they are evil. Whether they are young is not really taken into account. The Jedi are jsutifying their actions using the lesser of two evils argument. This theory is based on what I have seen from the PT Jedi, what GL has shown how fallible and prown to error they can be. How wrong they can be (in the PT). Now turn it around, If it would be OK for Jedi to slaughter Sith apprentices (yes we know the "only two" rule thing) young or old, so from Anakins point of view, what he has seen from the Jedi, he truly thinks they are evil and bad for the rest of the Galaxy because they are taking over and not be entirely truthful with him. They don't trust Anakin even though he has given his life for them. While the Sith trusts him with his life. He would see killing the children as a way of avoiding a greater evil later on.


We know Anakin has gone to the extreme but this is partly due to what he has seen with the Jedi over the years, partly to do with his own greed and power lust (he wants more and knows he shouldn't as a Jedi), and partly down to the misinformation fed to him by his friend Palpatine. And this all culminates inthe Mace Sidious duel and the actions just before. Together these points manifest themselves in the final turning point (Mace v Sidious) where Anakin sees he can no longer tolerate the Jedis and embraces the natural Darkside characteristics that have been nurtured in him since he was young. And it is my belief that the darkside attributes are inherent in every human, but it is the jedi training at a young age that removes these. If people were left to their own devices without any Sith or Jedi training people would have these (darkside) attributes ? and this is true of all societies and environments.

Facts or truths can be interpreted differently But there are a common set of characteristics of good and bad which EVERYONE (99% of people) agree to ? They will be the odd 1% community in the real world that disagree with some of these models of good.

The OT Jedi?s have moved the goal posts so to speak, they don?t adhere to the code as they used to. They talk about different points of views (not so narrow-minded with dogma), they even hide the truth to a certain extent

 

It would be highly unlikely that the Jedi would go and wipe out a bunch of Sith children...I mean, I really doubt it. I could see them taking them into custody, trying to help them, wahtever, but very few Jedi will just go slaughter a bunch of kids.

you are not supposed to see Anakin's statement as justifiable. It was just a random quote he shot back at Obi-Wan to try to justify himself to his master. You are reading far too much into it There is no justification for open betrayal and slaughter of people who did absolutely nothing to you. Fine, if he had a problem with Mace Windu, then go and kill Mace Windu. Don't go kill a little five year old who is looking up at you with trust. He made choices based on free will to believe the enemy and to allow his mind to be twisted. He wanted to hear what Palpatine was saying because it gave his decisions justification, it fed his arrogance and ego. The Jedi were not really jealous of his power, wary maybe, not sure about him because of the conflict they felt, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest they were jealous as some are arguing. Again, it was said to him and he believed it because his ego was out of control, his arrogance was out of control, his mind is being twisted by Palpatine. Why do you think that they continually harp on the fact that his mind has been twisted throughout the entire saga. Sure the Jedi needed some updates, they are not perfect and of course they operated in the grey area, they had to. But that is no excuse for Anakin to discard a way of life he chose and go and make self-serving decisions that benefit him. He was flawed, MasterMak, and that was the entire point of the movie, to show his flaws becoming bigger than he is causing his ultimate downfall. His belief that the Jedi are evil is not justifiable in anyway and just shows to what extent his mind had been twisted.

 

Well, I actually don't think it was just a random quote. The words Anakin uses are meant to be with referance to what Obi-Wan says in ROTJ. GL is linking the two and Anakins conversion to the Sith. He wants us to truly believe that Anakin was duped. He wants us to think from Anakins point of view what he was doing was right, the darkside was right and the Jedi held that away from him. Can we see as viewers the tragedy of Anakins fall, how he fell into the trap of the sith, how the Jedi failed him, how they didn't adapt, they didn't prepare, I think GL shows us the Jedi were arrogant and did fall short. But they are still the good guys, it's Anakin who has been twisted - but from what he has seen it is meant to be realistic transformation. Not just "I am greedy and power hungry, the Jedi are good but I don't care" - there is actually more, from Anakins point of view he can see the hypocrisy of the Jedi, he can see their shortfalls - and for him their betrayal. In fact all of the "The Jedi aren't" type quotes from Palpatine when talking to Anakin - are GLs way of telling us their us some logic and reason behind what Palpatine is saying - it is not completely baseless - it could be construed for the Jedi to appear as being just as bad as the Sith - from an open minded person anway. Like Palpatine talking about the strict dogmatic way of the Jedi. When people are open-minded they are able to see faults within themselves and their own cult. People will not think "I am right because I was brought up this way and that's final". They can see the bigger picture and see the holes in their own belief system. Some people think Democracy is right in and of itself, just because it is "Democracy". If anything ROTS proves how the majority can be wrong. Democracy comes in differant flavours and may not always be the best action. Sometimes we need the Jedi like people to take over...

 

about WWII

1. japan was an enemy of the united states, they were two seperate domains. alderaan was a territory of the empire. clearly using a WMD on your own people is a way to "keep them in line" with fear. the US used it to end a war, and it was a decision they made with much agony and remorse. the empire used it not only to end a war BUT to scare others into to total obedience, and demenstrate power.

2.the unites states warned the citizens of the cities. if i recall my history correctly, flyers were dropped, to warn the citizens of the impending doom. the empire never gave the alderaanians such a warning.

3.killing millions just to bring to justice 1 man, viceroy organa, is evil. sure alderaan was full of rebel sympathizers, but that does not make them guilty of treason. the US bombed the cities in order to show power, BUT warned the people to flee in the 1st place...it wanted to avoid the deaths of as many innocent people as possible. the empire didnt care about innocent lives...so long as the rest of the galaxy was fearful, they were sittin' pretty.

 

The Jedi are no better than the Sith. This is evidenced by the behavior of Mace Windu in his duel with Darth Sidious. He violates his own code ("don't kill an unarmed prisoner") because it suits him. First he claims that he will deliver Sidious to the Senate, and then he claims that the Senate is not trustworthy, and it's better to kill him altogether. The inconsistent behavior of Mace Windu demonstrates that the Jedi only profess a code of morality, but are really ready to do whatever it takes to achieve their goals.

This is also evident in the case of Yoda and the clones. I very much doubt whether a clone army is a "right thing" to use. Clones are created for the sole purpose of killing, slaves to the Republic that were never given the chance to choose freely what they want to do with their lives. Yet, Yoda and the Jedi have no trouble at all using clones at war. Their pursuit of power blinds their sense of morality.

 

but was he not right about sidious? wasnt sidious indeed too dangerous to be left alive? when it comes to sith v jedi, the jedi will do, and should do whatever is necessary to eliminate the threat they pose to the galaxy.

now i know, you may come back and try and justify what anakin did to dooku as okay.

BUT anakin killed dooku out of revenge, which of course leads to the darkside.
mace would have been killing palpatine out of necessity, not lust for power, and not revenge. it would have been justice, for the order, and for the greater republic.

 

Also, the Jedi are supposed to be different from the Sith because they use the Force for knowledge, but can someone point me to just where in the trilogy they use the Force for knowledge or for non-military purposes? As far as I can see, the Jedi use the Force for military purposes, to protect and assert the power of the Republic, even though the Republic is thoroughly corrupt. They are like soldiers and policemen enforcing the will of a corrupt government. They are thus, the agents of evil.

 

BUT anakin killed dooku out of revenge, which of course leads to the darkside.
mace would have been killing palpatine out of necessity, not lust for power, and not revenge. it would have been justice, for the order, and for the greater republic.

Anakin killed Dooku because "he was too dangerous". Mace tried to kill Palpatine because "he was too dangerous". The two situations are entirely parallel, but we are supposed to feel bad for Anakin in both situations, even though he takes exactly the opposite decision.

 

i know where your coming from about serving the corruput republic....but thats jsut it...they were trapped.

they were bound by tradition to serve the republic, yet resented the leaders they served because of the corruption. had they tried cleansing out the senate, they would have ben viewed as traitors, yet allowing it to stay the way it was, was detrimental to their cause. the jedi were in a catch 22.

to top it off, on of their own is the instigator of a galaxy spanning war. they cant side with the separatists because its made up of greedy beuracrats, so that leaves them with the republic by simple elimination. although they dont want to fight, theyr compassion and their loyalty are exploited, as they feel fighting in the war is the only way to end it quickly, and ensure a long lasting peace.

suddenly they realize they have all been played...the separatists, the council, even the bumbling senate. they try to right all the wrongs. they try to fix the mistakes they, and others have made....and end up getting screwed.

the jedi order is pitiable...not evil.

 

"Anakin killed Dooku because "he was too dangerous"

not so...it is clear one of his motives was revenge, for count dooku having cut off his arm.

"it is only natural. he cut off your arm, you wanted revenge"

as much as anakin didnt want to admit it at that time, that was one of his reasons for killing dooku.

 

Jeez,

Are we all still here?

GL is showing us one of the most heinous acts imaginable - the slaughter of innocent children - by Anakin as an indicator of how far he has fallen down, how heartless and how cruel he's become and people are STILL trying to justify his actions?!?!?!? Jeez, I guess if Anakin drowned puppies you would say he had good reason.

ASH

you are not supposed to see Anakin's statement as justifiable. It was just a random quote he shot back at Obi-Wan to try to justify himself to his master. You are reading far too much into it There is no justification for open betrayal and slaughter of people who did absolutely nothing to you.

Exactly. Anakin is lying constantly after the massacre at the Temple ("The Jedi have tried to overthrow the Republic", "I saw Mace Windu try to assasinate the Chancellor", "Obi-Wan is lying to you to turn you against me.") and you're ready to give his statement of "From my POV, the Jedi are evil" creedence when he obviously at this point has proven himself a liar? He obviously doesn't know the difference between good and evil because he considers killing innocent children an option to take to get what he wants.

 

sorry jovieve...im the one that bumped it up...but i am on your side

 

not so...it is clear one of his motives was revenge, for count dooku having cut off his arm.

I disagree. Anakin decides to violate the code when Palpatine urges him, teling him that he is too dangerous.

 

Don't worry about it Padme. I just can't believe people are still trying to defend this.

 

they were bound by tradition to serve the republic, yet resented the leaders they served because of the corruption.

Using this kind of logic, the German military establishment that was bound by tradition to protect Germany did the right thing to stand behind the Nazi government and Adolph Hitler. Anyone who knows that the govenrment is corrupt, and yet supports it is evil. The Jedi could have withdrawn their support for the Republic in protest. But, they decided to continue to support a corrupt regime. They're no different than the military arms of corrupt regimes around the world.

 

Anakin is lying constantly after the massacre at the Temple ("The Jedi have tried to overthrow the Republic", "I saw Mace Windu try to assasinate the Chancellor", "Obi-Wan is lying to you to turn you against me.")

All these statements are true. The Jedi _did_ try to assassinate the Chancellor and take control of the Senate. Mace Windu did decide to kill the Chancellor vigilante-style because he doesn't like the courts or the Senate. Obi-Wan _did_ lie to Padme by forgetting to mention that the Jedi had attempted to assasinate the Chancellor and take control of the Senate.

 

their ultimate mandate was to serve and help the people. this was impossible without the support of the republic, they needed it in order better help the people. they decided to not become seperate, because they believed in the ideals of the republic, even if not all of the politians held up the morals.

although i do agree, things would have been alot better if they had taken a step back and examined everything

 

"All these statements are true. The Jedi _did_ try to assassinate the Chancellor and take control of the Senate. Mace Windu did decide to kill the Chancellor vigilante-style because he doesn't like the courts or the Senate. Obi-Wan _did_ lie to Padme by forgetting to mention that the Jedi had attempted to assasinate the Chancellor and take control of the Senate."

that is taken completly out of context. the jedi DID NOT INTEND TO TAKE OVER. that hand was forced on them. and they didnt go there with the intent of killing the chancellor, they went with the intent of arresting him. he used violent actions, and mace windu realized he had to be killed, in order for true justice to be served.

 

let me settle all this Luke Skywalker became a Jedi thus the Jedi are good. The jedi sought to destory the evil empire and bring democracy back to the Galaxy. Luke is a jedi Obi-wan is a jedi thus the jedi have proven that with all their faults, they always come through in the end. This is why we don't see them killing children of for that matter trying to get a son to kill his own father for the Darkside. Palpatine is evil, any idiot who thinks The jedi are like him missed the point George Lucas made in the entire saga....Good Vs. Evil. The Sith seek power and the Jedi seek peace. If somebody walked up to George lucas with these stupid Jedi are are evil crap he would roll his eyes and continue walking.

 

Darth Syphus

Anakin is lying constantly after the massacre at the Temple ("The Jedi have tried to overthrow the Republic", "I saw Mace Windu try to assasinate the Chancellor", "Obi-Wan is lying to you to turn you against me.")

All these statements are true.

Are you joking?

The Jedi _did_ try to assassinate the Chancellor

Uh, no. The Jedi were planning on going over to the Chancellor's office to announce Grievous' defeat and to make certain the Chancellor relinquished his emergency powers.

After Anakin tell the Jedi that the Chancellor is a Sith, the Jedi go to arrest the Chancellor. He reacts to the attempted arrest by resisting arrest, assault with a deadly weapon, murder and attempted murder and as the final Jedi is about to return in kind, he's murdered by the Chancellor. Now, where in there, is 'assassination'? PUH-leeze.

and take control of the Senate.

Take control of the Senate? It was my understanding that they were going to GUARD the Senate while the power changed hands. Where's the 'take control of' the Senate in that?

Obi-Wan _did_ lie to Padme by forgetting to mention that the Jedi had attempted to assasinate the Chancellor and take control of the Senate.

Well, I just blew those ideas of yours away, so sorry, Anakin's got not a leg to stand on...so to speak

 

Are you joking?

No

Uh, no. The Jedi were planning on going over to the Chancellor's office to announce Grievous' defeat and to make certain the Chancellor relinquished his emergency powers.

That is what they were _planning_, but in the end, Mace Windu tried to kill the Chancellor, bypassing the Courts and the Senate. If a police officer goes to arrest someone, and then says "screw it, the courts are all corrupt, and they'll just let him go" and kills him, then the police officer is a murderer. No difference at all.

After Anakin tell the Jedi that the Chancellor is a Sith, the Jedi go to arrest the Chancellor. He reacts to the attempted arrest by resisting arrest, assault with a deadly weapon, murder and attempted murder and as the final Jedi is about to return in kind, he's murdered by the Chancellor. Now, where in there, is 'assassination'? PUH-leeze.

The Jedi ignite their lightsabers first. They have no warrant from the courts or the Senate. Their action is illegal. If a bunch of people showed up at my door without a warrant, brandishing their weapons, I'd try to kill them too, before they killed me. I certainly wouldn't trust them; if they had legitimate authority they'd show me some proof of the legality of their action.

Take control of the Senate? It was my understanding that they were going to GUARD the Senate while the power changed hands. Where's the 'take control of' the Senate in that?

The Senate supports the Chancellor. The Senators are elected representatives. What makes you think that the Senate would approve the deposition of their Chancellor? And why does the Senate need to be guarded anyway? From whom? Mace Windu is clear that he aims to "take control of the Senate". He clearly doesn't like the Senate, as he makes clear when he says that he doesn't trust it to get rid of Palpatine. So, the Jedi are trying to get rid of the elected Senators, and replace them with those who will agree with them.

 

let me settle all this Luke Skywalker became a Jedi thus the Jedi are good.

Luke Skywalker also donated R2 and 3PO to Jabba the Hutt, even though those droids had helped him faithfully. He lied to the Ewoks, causing the deaths of many of them in a fight that had nothing to do with them. Luke Skywalker is no angel to be paraded as a model of moral behavior.

 

"That is what they were _planning_, but in the end, Mace Windu tried to kill the Chancellor, bypassing the Courts and the Senate. If a police officer goes to arrest someone, and then says "screw it, the courts are all corrupt, and they'll just let him go" and kills him, then the police officer is a murderer. No difference at all."

thats just it...at that point its no longer about politics, and its no longer about laws. its about good defeating evil. palpaitine knows this, and he properly predicted the move of the council, mace in particular. he knew their sense of right and wrong could be used against them, in front of a senate that doesnt know the whole story.

 

I read some more of these comments, and the idea that the sith are good guys is still silly. I'm under the impression someone just wants to argue.

I haven't seen a strong point in here at all that would make me believe that the jedi are the bad guys. Even allowing a LOT of rationalization and bad metaphors, it's still a weak arguement.

 

"donating" R2 and 3po were part of his plan to free his captured friend Han Solo. If you remeber R2 had Lukes new lightsaber in him as part of the plan..did you not see Return of the Jedi? lol Also Luke said nothing to the Ewoks they chose to help based on the story C3P0 told them of their adventures and the evil empire. And how is defeating a Empire with a planet destoying machine have nothing to do with the ewoks?! Thats the same way america thought about World War 2 before Pearl Harbor, and the same thing we thought about the war on Terror before 9-11. They are all part of the same Galaxy and all must do their part to ensure it was safe. Luke went to Vader and sought to make him good again.