From "The Annotated Screenplays": The Origins of Darth Vader, Anakin Starkiller, and Luke's Father

Thank you very much for your compliments, Vortigern. It appears that all of my work in building that site wasn't for naught, after all. I wanted to see a website that had all of these in one place...and Bjorn, too, is working at getting my other stuff formatted and up over at his place, so there'll be two sites out there before too long with this content in one spot. As I said, waving my inner-geek flag high.

It's pretty much everything I thought was missing on the Internet, and I've gotten metric tons of very gratifying feedback from others out there who've been to it, as well.

The main address is:

The Internet Star Wars File Archive

Thanks again for your thoughts!

 

As I may be gone for a few days, I'm giving my thread a shameless up so it doesn't get lost in the archives.

May the Force be with you ... Always.

 

Up this wonderful thread.

 

All of you have done some wonderful research. I have had my doubts about how this whole story came about for some time too. Your arguments have convinced me that Lucas didn't always know where his story was going.

But having said that, doesn't that make the whole Star Wars story that did evolve that much more impressive? I mean if Lucas is making a lot of this up as he goes, I am even in more awe of his story telling than before. I think we all have to admit that the story of Anakin=Darth Vader and is Luke's father is way better than them being two different people. It creates so many more levels to Luke's final struggle with Vader. Much better than simply wanting revenge for his father's death. It also makes the prequels that much more interesting with the parrallels between Anakin and Luke.

From the posts I have read on this topic, it seems like you are trying to take something away from Lucas by proving that he didn't always know the whole story line, but so what? Does that take away from his "master story teller" status? Or has he just got lucky all these years that it has worked out so well. You decide.

 

Here's a quote from Mark Hamill that I found at the Official Site from a Classic Moment entitled Cliffhangers

"I remember very early on asking who my parents were and being told that my father and Obi-Wan met Vader on the edge of a volcano and they had a duel... Now, I wonder if it's true? I mean, there are so many things. For example, remember the Clone Wars? They could have cloned my father. It's all speculation at this point, sort of like who shot J.R. Ewing."
- Mark Hamill
November, 1980

It's obvious that Lucas is making it up as he goes along. That's just how stories are done. Whenever he says, "it was always supposed to be..." I just roll my eyes. I am impressed at how the tale has been crafted as a work in progress to seem like the retelling of a well thought out story even though it is not. It bothers me that Lucas doesn't come out and say that anymore. It's likely that he's thought about it so much he's forgotten exactly when he thought about stuff and so he just says it was always in his mind.

 

Rodney-Wan, I have said before and will say again now that I am a huge STAR WARS fan, and have been, since 1977, thoroughly impressed with the storytelling genius of Mr. George Lucas. The fact that Vader was re-envisioned as Luke's fallen father only cements my admiration for Lucas' fertile--and flexible--imagination. My only intent with this thread, then, has been to separate fact from revisionist history with regard to the evolution of the characters of Vader and Anakin.

 

Talz, thanks for that excellent quote by Hamill. That's exactly what this thread is meant to be--a repository of evidence for the development and evolution of the two characters of Vader and Anakin.

 

I'm just glad we got the Star Wars we all know and love instead of the cheesy adventures of the Starkiller family.

 

Lucas also said that he created Ben as the father figure (good side) and Vader as the father (dark side), so it kind of balances out....like a ying yang

he said something like that.

 

Just found this:

From Rolling Stone, August 25, 1977,
Interview with George Lucas:

Q. What's the story for the prequels?

Lucas: It's about Ben and Luke's father and Vader when they are young Jedi knights. But Vader kills Luke's father, then Ben and Vader have a confrontation, just like they have in STAR WARS, and Ben almost kills Vader. As a matter of fact, he falls into a volcanic pit and gets fried and is one destroyed being. That's why has has to wear the suit with a mask. It's like a walking iron lung. His face is all horrible inside. I was going to shoot a close-up of Vader where you could see the inside of his face, but then we said no, no, it would destroy the mystique of the whole thing.

Did anyone else ever think that Vader could have gotten Skywalker's wife pregnant and Ben didn't know? Then Vader killed Anakin. That way Ben wouldn't be lying and neither would Vader.

 

anybody (especially you Vortigern99) wonder why the name Anakin was deliberately left out of discussions of the Skywalker father in ANH and ESB? Even when Luke's father had a name in earlier drafts of SW (although it was Anikin instead of Anakin)? I think the reason was that both the character backgrounds on both the elder Skywalker AND Darth Vader BOTH were not very fleshed out at the time of ANH being written, through to production and release. Other than being jedis and connected with Kenobi, where they came from and their motivations were virtually non-existant. I think that when GL attempted to flesh out character histories (following ANH's 77 release up to the eve of writing ESB), especially "Luke's Father" and Darth Vader, he noticed parallels between the two; basically their histories converged, and to avoid two characters who other than the obvious would be too similar, decided to make them the same character. thoughts?

 

Rodney-Wan, WAY TO GO!!! read my response to Vortigern99 on how and why the characters of DV and Luke's father were made one and the same. this makes sense, but more importantly your observation that THE PLOT POINT WORKED AND MADE THE WHOLE SAGA THAT MUCH MORE WORTHWHILE!

 

I realize I?m kind of late to the punch here, but everyone here is ignoring one very important fact. In the rough draft screenplay, dated May 1974, the hero of the story is Annikin Starkiller. Annikin is a Jedi Padawan who is being trained by his father, Kane Starkiller. Kane is an old Jedi warrior who has been in many battles, and as a result of those battles, much of Kane?s body has been replaced with mechanical parts. In this draft there is also an Imperial General named Darth Vader.

Is it just a coincidence, then, that in ANH Darth Vader?the Imperial General?happens to be the one who is half-man and half-machine? Is it just a coincidence that Luke?s father?s lightsaber happens to look exactly like Darth Vader?s lightsaber? Considering these things, you would be deluding yourself if you continued to believe that Lucas did not envision Darth Vader as Luke?s father while he was filming ANH.

 

"...you would be deluding yourself..."

Bad_Radio, you are capable of intelligent, well-reasoned posts, but I always roll my eyes when you post this same, moronic phrase over and over again. At the very least, try to be a little more creative, if not more compassionate.

 

I don't understand why this seems to be such a big deal amongst SW fans of whether Lucas had his ideas fleshed out from the very beginning or if the story evolved over time. I for one could care less. If he had all planned out from the beginning, great. If he didn't and just has been doing like all other writers and directors do and make things up as they go along, thats great too.

I think your work is interesting Vortigern. I just think it is unfortunate that fans have to debate this issue. Is it really important when and how Lucas came up w/ the final product of his story?

 

It would appear that the biggest problem isn't the changes themselves, but Lucas' denial of the changes.

This is understandable, but I find the research itself more interesting than the question it is trying to answer.

 

>>>> Bad_Radio, you are capable of intelligent, well-reasoned posts, but I always roll my eyes when you post this same, moronic phrase over and over again. At the very least, try to be a little more creative, if not more compassionate.

Oh gawd? Get over yourself. Are you still pissed that I once said that you were deluding yourself? Dude you need to grow thicker skin if you?re going to hang around here. And just to let you know, I?ve been here for a while and I have yet to call someone a moron or to say that something that someone wrote was ?moronic? even though I?ve had the inclination a few times to say something worse than that. You?ve been here... What? Two months? Talk about compassion.

No really. I?m sorry if you took offense. I just happen to be pretty involved in a couple of books right now about society?s self-delusion and hypocrisy. So I guess recently my posts have reflected some of the things that I have been reading. I?m sooooooo sorry if I seem to be repeating myself.

(Most notably I?m reading Maxim Gorky?s autobiography and the man goes on and on about how people don?t like to acknowledge their own shortcomings, how they won?t admit when others are right and when they are wrong, and how they?ll even go as far to lie to their friends and themselves to keep their delusion alive.)

 

"Are you still pissed that I once said that you were deluding yourself?"

Hardly..I actually thought it was funny that after you called me delusional, I was able to further explain my point so well that you were unable to respond, unless you have a better explanation for your notable absence.

Intelligent people can and do have differences of opinions, and it has nothing to do with their mental state. To continually accuse people of such is rather telling in its own way.

As for the rest of your post, talk about thin-skinned.

 

>>>> Hardly..I actually thought it was funny that after you called me delusional [?] Intelligent people can and do have differences of opinions, and it has nothing to do with their mental state. To continually accuse people of such is rather telling in its own way.

First, I never said you were delusional? I said you were deluding yourself (i.e., fooling yourself). Big difference. There were no references to anybody?s mental state. Second, if you check the threads I have posted in, with the exception of this one, yours is the only other one in which I made reference to someone in this regard, and that someone just happened to be you. In other words, I don?t ?continually accuse people? of being ?delusional.?

>>>>I was able to further explain my point so well that you were unable to respond, unless you have a better explanation for your notable absence.

If you take a look at that thread?the Bashers? Sanctuary?by the time I was able to post a reply, that thread was so way out of hand with all the talk of the other JC members? I wanted no part of all the mudslinging that was going there and that?s why I didn?t respond. Plus, the things you put forward were things I could have read in the databanks at starwars.com. So why should I feel obligated to post a reply especially when my interests lie in other threads. Trust me, if something sparks my interest, I will respond.

 

"I never said you were delusional. I said you were deluding yourself (i.e., fooling yourself). Big difference."
"to call someone a moron or to say that something that someone wrote was moronic"

Well, since I called your post moronic, I guess your explanation applies to me as well.

"yours is the only other one in which I made reference to someone in this regard, and that someone just happened to be you."

"In other words, I don?t "continually accuse people" of being "delusional."

Well, gee! I guess that makes it all better. I didn't realize I'd touched on such a sore spot.

I guess I'm not the only one with "thin skin"

"I wanted no part of all the mudslinging that was going there and that?s why I didn?t respond. Plus, the things you put forward were things I could have read in the databanks at starwars.com. So why should I feel obligated to post a reply especially when my interests lie in other threads. Trust me, if something sparks my interest, I will respond."

Well, I guess I'll just have to accept that as an answer. I'm curious to know where the "mudslinging" in The Basher's Sanctuary was, especially you were the one that used the "delusional" statement, and that's the strongest wording I can see. Not many people were involved in that discussion, though I would agree that most of them did not accept your arguments as valid.

I appreciate you stating that my arguments fall in line with the Star Wars website, because I do try to back up my reasoning. The fact that you saw this underscores the integrity of my argument. I can see now why you lost interest and decided to leave well enough alone.

Now...as you say...on to other threads.

 

>>>> I appreciate you stating that my arguments fall in line with the Star Wars website, because I do try to back up my reasoning. The fact that you saw this underscores the integrity of my argument. I can see now why you lost interest and decided to leave well enough alone.

---

Human beings are unable to be honest with themselves about themselves. They cannot talk about themselves without embellishing. [[i]Rashomon[/i]] portrays such human beings?the kind who cannot survive without lies to make them feel they are better people than they really are. It even shows this sinful need for flattering falsehood going beyond the grave?even the character who dies cannot give up his lies when he speaks to the living through a medium. Egoism is a sin the human being carries with him from birth; it is the most difficult to redeem.

? Akira Kurosawa, [i]Something Like an Autobiography[/i][hr][/blockquote]

 

Why am I reminded of the blonde guy in "Good Will Hunting", whose "meaningful" contributions to arguments are always someone else's words? (and verbatim, no less )

 

Apparently there exists a screenplay in which all the characters? origins were out in the open:

---

[b]LUCAS:[/b] Originally, I wanted to do a Saturday morning serial space adventure, and I started working on a script and discovered when I finished it that it was 180 pages long, and it just couldn't be made It was way too long, too much. The next draft I took it and cut 2/3 of it off and just dealt with the first act. And I said, what I'll do is I'll break it into three movies and I'll put the other two movies on the shelf and just concentrate on the first act. And that screenplay turned into Star Wars.

[b]COPPOLA:[/b] You finished the script and you gave it to me and I thought it was terrific. And then you totally changed it. And I kept saying, why are you changing it? What was it? How did that script differ? I know you added the two robots at the beginning...
[b]LUCAS:[/b] Yeah.
[b]COPPOLA:[/b] But what was it, the script I read, how did that differ other than that opening? Was that the main difference?
[b]LUCAS:[/b] Well, there was a lot of character differences. There were other differences. I had Luke and Leia both in it. And um, there were a lot of ... Darth Vader was actually there, he was the father.
[b]COPPOLA:[/b] Really? He was -
[b]LUCAS:[/b] He was there. He was their father. And they were both there. And it was like ... you know, it just didn't seem to play out like I wanted it to play. So I did, I sat down and I did a whole new treatment, a whole new outline.
[b]COPPOLA:[/b] Yeah, you had the whole script and -
[b]LUCAS:[/b] Did it all over again.

? From [i]A Long Time Ago? The Story of[/i] Star Wars[hr][/blockquote](Special thanks to [b]Ozhaggis[/b] for the above excerpt.)