ST George Lucas was right all along about fans.

Star Wars fans are hard bunch to please- I think that was the point of the first post pretty much and this thread speaks for itself. I think that it's great that Star Wars -fans are diverse, different ages, different cultures, different opinions etc. But what is not great is huge amount of negative energy that bursts out every time something "Star Wars" is made- new film or a video game or tv-series. It is guaranteed that someone will instantly shout GARBAGE! (and worse) and someone even threatens to kill other people who disagree (or threatens to kill people who made this piece of trash Star Wars that they find personally insulting for some reason) or just calls them names and classifies them to be the lowest scum of mankind for liking something different.

Jeez! People I get it that some people hate prequels, some hate animated tv-shows, some hate sequels. You have right to dislike stuff but you have no right to force your negative opinions on to others and hate other people because they like something you don't. Sure it goes both ways, you don't have to like anything because others don't- You can say negative things too of course, but I think it's best to use just a bit milder and more polite language than shouting out loud it is garbage/trash/****, using a lot of exclamation marks and f-words etc. For good conversation you also should add complete arguments to be understandable. No just statements without any reasoning behind them.

I know it's the internet (and this is problem all over internet really- impoliteness, trolling, baiting etc.) but SW-fans seem to be extremely good example of this internet-phenomena. I find it somewhat ironic that stereotypical Star Wars fan in internet focuses more on hating Star Wars than loving it. There are people who hate like 80 percent of all Star Wars with passion and call themselves fans. I think fans don't have to like everything of course. but if you hate more than you love it really is questionable fandom really. At times it feels like huge majority of fans are like that, but it's just because those are the loudest ones.

Sure Star Wars is not only fandom with similar problems, but it really seems probable to me that George Lucas gave up partially because of this. (I guess that was the point of this thread and I agree) Star Wars -fans just focus much more on hating than loving for some reason. I personally don't understand why, since I think it is very stressful to focus on negative. Sure there are things in SW that I don't like that much. I think original trilogy is many ways superior to prequels and sequels, but I also see a lot of good things in all trilogies and I enjoy most Star Wars content while some others are disappointing. But usually I can see good even in those things I personally dislike. People just seem to love hating Star Wars for some reason.

I for example don't like it when people still bash prequels all the time when given a chance, even when talking about something else like sequels or like how bad movie Suicide Squad or Tom Cruise's Mummy etc. is- someone - probably a self-proclaimed Star Wars -fan will eventually come and say "Not as bad as Star Wars- prequels". I know most people dislike prequels and I also think many things in prequels went wrong- but not all of it. I was introduced to Star Wars with The Phantom Menace and I don't even hate Jar Jar Binks. Here is one reason for other Star Wars -fans to hate me I've noticed while I never really hated anyone for hating Jar Jar- yeah he can be irritating I guess. (It's not like I'm the biggest Jar Jar -fan ever either.) TFA was too much rehash to feel like a new SW-movie for me, but it still had a lot of good things and I liked it, not as much as I liked TLJ though, that felt like a new slightly different SW-movie. Sure there are also things in TLJ that bother me a bit.

Now if people come and say The Last Jedi was worse than prequels, most people think it is necessarily same as saying it is the worst thing ever. It may be that some persons honestly prefer prequels over the TLJ or TLJ over the prequels or even the originals (which I don't think is taboo, just opinion among others- many prefer ESB over ANH as well). I think it's good to have a lot of Star Wars for different fans to enjoy, but every time something new comes out fandom seems to focus on negative in more or less extreme ways.That I think was the main point of the starting post and I agree that many angry Star Wars fans should calm down a bit. Less all-out negativity and bitter sarcasm and more constructive criticism, sharing different opinions and focusing on what you like in Star Wars or how Star Wars could be better for you. I think this would be better for fandom as well as everyone's mental health including fans as well as film-makers and actors.

 

OK, but in the internet age, there is no separation- personal attacks and vitriol come with people not liking something, especially something they are wildly enthusiastic about. The internet age has contributed strongly to an uncivil society.

 

The Last Jedi IS a beautiful looking film. My problem is how Luke Skywalker is portrayed (see other thread so no point re-hashing). I dont hate this film and in fact there's quite a lot I enjoyed and im even willing to over look Mary Poppins Leia as much as I am able to overlook the complete lack of chemistry and so many awkward moments between Anakin and Padme in AotC.

I believe George is likely sitting back thinking "Glad thats not me getting hammered by the fans again".

 

Let me say something about the comic book fandom ... I am 41. I have a younger friend -- he is about 25 -- who is a major comics guy. In fact. he's also a gifted artist, and he was contracted last year by Upper Deck to do some work on a Marvel project and got to have lunch with Stan Lee. So yeah, this kid knows his stuff, right?

So he loved TLJ, and he got very snippy with me when I said I didn't. 'Just because you didn't like the story,' he said 'doesn't mean you can discount the cinematography, the effects, the sound, the music, all of that stuff. It isn't just about the writing or how you think the characters should be portrayed ...'

And then I read your post, and it hit me: This is about canon. These Marvel and DC people see their characters written and re-written and re-booted all the time! Gwen Stacy is dead. Oh, wait, no she isn't; she's back. Oh, she's not only back, she's a super hero! Oh wait, she never died at all! Writers are allowed to come in and do these series that veer off and contradict previous stories and no one cares, because that's just the way they do things. They are constantly starting over.

The films are the same way. I could have sworn that 15 years ago I saw Professor X get pulled apart into nothingness by Jean Grey, yet there he is last year in Logan, dying of old age at like 120. Someone told me the timeline got changed and The Last Stand never happened. Never happened. So does that mean I get my $10 and 2 hours back?

Star Wars doesn't do that. Writers get ONE SHOT at telling a story, and we are stuck with the outcome. Unless JJ is able to pull a rabbit out of his hat and save the day in IX, this is what has become of Luke Skywalker, and there's no going back and repairing the damage. I think that's why some people don't understand why some of us are so upset. This was written in Sharpie, not pencil.

 

What I'm thinking about all of this is that what fans do is kind of just freely spew their feelings and opinions and sometimes they do indeed take it to Twitter and start being awful to the creators of some story. It's not that I think that fans shouldn't present their opinions. It's that how fandom does this is rarely constructive.

If I look at this from the point of view of a creator (like George Lucas in the OP) and I want to know what people are saying, to see hate everywhere is not something that will be useful to me. I can understand that it would be hurtful because yes you can say these people are adults and they should be able to handle some criticism, but I think that underestimates the power of the internet and social media (especially today) as amplifiers of attitudes among fans. It's not just the people some want to see as overly sensitive who are affected by these things--everyone is affected. The healthiest choice may be just to not participate and ignore the fans entirely.

All of the safeguards people usually employ IRL to not be total *******s often disappear on the internet. I like this in the sense that it's a place of thought and I don't want bars or rules on it. But OTOH I think that fandom is really hurtful. And when there is some huge outcry, no useful messages are communicated anyway. It's not constructive criticism.

I still don't know what I think the answer is. But like I said, it's mainly only something I've been thinking about with myself. I've been pondering it along the lines of microaggressions. When someone doesn't like something or get what they want there's just this little bit of emotional poison that can come through in reactions and it's that poison that is toxic. And everyone's little emotional toxins added together and amplified over the internet, create this nasty ugliness in fandoms that is totally useless.

I also think it has a lot to do with the id. It's the most childish part of a person that wails over things in fictional stories. And all it can think about is me me me.

 

Very well said!

 

Rian Johnson did something pretty hurtful to me last week, and he made millions of dollars doing it. He needs to suck it up and take his medicine. (No threats or abusive language, of course).

 

I don't understand how that makes sense though. I mean I actually cried for several hours off and on after watching TLJ because it was very heartbreaking (and admittedly I cried about it the next day too - but I'm just emotional). But I know also that it affects everyone differently and why I found it heartbreaking is personal. I do think it is a sad film if one is emotionally involved with the Skywalker family. But I don't believe RJ did anything hurtful unless he was deliberately intending to break people's hearts because he secretly hates them. I rather don't think that's the case. (Also I think that RJ, KK, and JJA are all on the same page on this--there is a vision uniting all three of them.)

I don't understand...

 

I think Rian fairly intentionally wrote the most iconoclastic script he possibly could have and in doing so acted in a way that was so careless, thoughtless and misinformed that might as well have done it on purpose.

If he couldn't handle the criticism, he shouldn't have taken the job.

 

all sw movies are good. whether or an individual likes them is their opinion. gl was in the process of starting up the st. he sold because of his age and not wanting to spend the rest of his life wrapped up in it.

 

I actually think "iconoclastic" is perfect for what TLJ is. And maybe it felt like the movie was deliberately poking every section of fandom, save for the nihilistic. I mean I can see/feel that. I don't understand why it's there though still.

 

The current backlash i think is only the beginning tbh.

Part of me is almost sure that Alden Ehrenreich will be hated as Han Solo by a part of the fanbase.

And you know its bad when there are more people wanting an Obi Wan movie just to get to see Ewan back in the role but there are people asking why do we need a Han Solo Movie at all?

 

There's some fans who think they are entitled to autographs and conversations when they happen to run in to a celebrity out and about. That's not the case. If someone famous wants to do that, that's nice of them, but if someone doesn't want to sign something, that's they're business. We are consumers. You buy a product, you get the product. In this case, we're talking about entertainment. We're never entitled to a piece of the people behind the product and they should never be punching bags.

Some racist stuff was directed at Kelly Mariw Tran recently. There is ugly stuff out there. I saw it for Daisy/Rey and Finn/John as well. I'm sure that kind of stuff is still going on. I try to not to expose myself to darker parts of fandom because its just not something I need in my head.

And the thing is, there never really is a valid reason for verbal abuse.

Ok, in this case, its about voicing displeasure and wanting something better the next time. Fair enough, but most business changes is when it effects the bottom line (look at the stuff that went down with Battlefront 2, a game I have no interest in playing for many, many reasons). Well, the hitch is Star Wars as a movie property may be too big to fall in its current state. Then you add in, we have no idea what JJ plans creatively in the next movie anyway. It might be a return to form for the detractors anyway independent of this moment in time. Or it might be something different TFA and TLJ, I don't know.

I don't know. I certainly don't have the answers when it comes to fan interaction and what's appropriate. George got a raw deal with the prequels I think. It did get ugly. But really, what are his options? He decided to wash his hands of it, hand Star Wars over to his kids or a company with a track record? I don't know the background to the deal, but I think he made the best choice he could have made.

 

i don't get why people think this.

this film reaffirms the importance of the force and that the jedi play a small role in it. that the jedi were wrong to be in such a powerful position in the government and it led to their downfall. then in the end the jedi are reaffirmed as continuing through rey. luke becomes more powerful than ever before and saves the resistance, cementing his legendary status. we learn that the jedi don't have to end and that failure is a part of life.

it's super positive and reaffirms every other film in the saga.

 

No. This one was poor. Compared to AOTC it is like AOTC is a floating iceberg and TLJ is a floating piece of wood when it comes to depth

 

Agreed and well put. Sadly I am not surprised that there have already been death threats or the recent racist attack on Kelly Marie Tran. This is the same fandom who bullied a 9 year old kid and leaves pathetic negative reviews on non Star Wars films Hayden Christensen is in 12 years after the fact.

 

not even close. this is one of the deepest sw films. i recommend you watch it again.

 

A dark side, this fandom has.

 

I'm worried that E9 is going to repeat ANH, ROTJ and TFA.

Multi-verse. SW has so many alternate timelines, it's not funny.

 

I wouldn't call it iconoclastic by any means. But it IS a new take on what it means to be a hero, or a legend, and what our responsibility is to those who follow us. I think this is a film that requires something of its viewers. It requires them to engage with their own visions of their heroes. Just like Rey has to meet Luke as a real human being with flaws and doubts, so do we. And in the end, he lives up to our expectations. I think that is truly remarkable for a film. It's much more than what has come before, IMO.

 

No question, this is one of the most ridiculous and possibly inflammatory things I've heard someone say on these forums, and I've been here a long time. If you *actually* feel this way, you should probably talk to someone off the internet about it.

 

people are worried about re-hashing and bash it but when something is very different they bash it for being different. fans don't know what they want unless its their own "head-canon fan fiction" on the screen.

 

SaintKenobi123- Damn, I agree with you on the assessment with DC and Marvel films as opposed to Star Wars. For example with Spiderman, you have Toby Maguire, Andrew Garfield and Tom Holland playing the character. In 6 movies combined and you can like one over the other and yet they all feel fresh and canon. Different takes because they reboot, restart and change and it is an accepted practice. Star Wars on the other hand.......not so much and that is what makes certain parts of TFA, RO, and TLJ boring compared to when I watch a Marvel movie. Don't get me wrong, I like those three movie but thought that Captain America Civil War was way better than Rogue One, Avengers: Age of Ultron was better than TFA and the combination of Thor/Guardians of the Galaxy and Spiderman Homecoming trumps TLJ for me. Those movies were fun with hardly any boring scenes, but the star wars ones, were ......okay this is the time to go to the bathroom. In fact, I timed it just about right with the Canto Bight scene to use the can.

Avengers: Infinity Wars and Avatar..........they are the box office menace..........down the box office they will!

 

The exact opposite of the prequels, when only the people who liked it were vilified.

Having now been alive to see all of these movies (OT, PT, ST) in the theater in their opening weeks, one thing has become very clear. It is completely up to you as to how you feel about these movies. Opinions change over time. You may see the movie on opening night and hate it, then on further viewings you love it. Or, you may love it at first, but on further viewings, your love for the movie goes down. But in any event, we all have complete control over whether or not we like or dislike these films.

If you saw Phantom Menace and hated it on first viewing, you had every opportunity to revisit it, dig in, and find a million things to like. There are positives and negatives within all films, and to quote a master, your focus determines your reality. For me, it's easy to love TPM. It's also easy to hate it, if I want to dwell on the negatives.

To walk out of TLJ hating it, certain that its terrible, to me that's a choice you have made. If I hated TLJ on first viewing, I would go right back in and look for the positives. There are truly so many positives in this film, I believe anyone can come to appreciate the choices Johnson has made. Were they what I wanted or expected? Mostly not.

Real fans should dive in and explore the new movie, with all its surprises, and take a much closer look before they declare the movie anything. I think that's what George would say is wrong with so many of the fans. They were too quick to be negative, rather than give it some time and think for a second about what the filmmaker has done.

 

Today I understand George Lucas. He was right to sell LFL to Disney.

I do not have my life invested in Star Wars, yet the toxic fandom makes my heart hurt. Imagine the poor guy.

One day he just told himself "I don't have to endure this anymore", and he was right.