CT Grand Moff Tarkin Out Ranks Vader?

It can be difficult to interpret things in ANH because so many important story lines of ESB/ROTJ and the PT weren't even in George's mind at the time.

 

I personally cannot see Palpatine as necessarily showing favoritism to Vader over any other Imperial. He does so to the extent that Vader is his apprentice and gets special treatment in being personally tutored by the Emperor, but aside from that...

I think someone earlier in this thread said something about how had Vader killed Tarkin that Palpatine might not really care, but that if the opposite were true he'd be furious. If an ambitious officer took out Vader, I would think Palpatine would recognize two things:

1. Vader was weak to be taken out by a non-Force using subordinate
2. This non-Force using subordinate is extremely capable and could prove useful

Yes, Palpatine would be stuck having to pick a new apprentice, but if Tarkin for some reason decided to take out Vader and succeeded, I don't see Tarkin being punished, but rewarded instead.

This is from Adolf Hitler's wiki article, but I think it could be relevant here in that I feel like the Empire is run in a similar fashion:

You put Tarkin in charge of the Death Star but then have Vader there as the Emperor's representative. If Tarkin proved to be incompetent, Vader probably would have stepped in, killed him, and taken control of the project. But Tarkin was clearly adept in overseeing the project, so Vader probably didn't really have much to do other than tag along.

In the event that a subordinate disagreed with Vader's decisions and staged a coup and had Vader killed AND proved their competence in command... In that highly unlikely event, I could see Palpatine rewarding that crafty officer heavily.

 

Which is why Lucas quotes from say, 2005....and NOT from 1976/1977 - 1983, aren't very illustrative of the contextual thought process(es) and character motivation(s) involved with the original films.

 

Which is why I love (sarcastically) the quotes in which Lucas refers to the lightsaber fights in the PT being more flashy because it is the Jedi in their prime while in the CT, Obi-Wan is old, Luke is poorly trained, and Vader is an injured cyborg.

I somehow doubt that back in the 70s Lucas sat down and said "you know what? I want to have several sword fights throughout this trilogy, but I don't want them to be that good."

Plus - I don't remember the source - but I thought his thought process back during the CT was that the lightsaber was actually has some weight to it and it best used with two hands, while in the PT it is represented as being extremely light and something that can be twirled effortlessly.

The man is prone to changing his mind a lot.

 

^^^^^^ I think you're right about the "heavy" lightsaber comment from back in the CT days.

 

Did he even envision a trilogy when he was writing the script for ANH?

Lucas tries to explain/rationalize things in hindsight - and a lot of us do too - but the real answer (as we all know) is that he just didn't have all the pieces of the story together at the beginning and (because of that) some things just don't fully connect and make sense.

 

That I do not know. I recall hearing him at one time stating that he was hellbent on finishing the story, even if ANH flopped, that it was important to him that he got the story he wanted to tell out there.

But I don't know if that's a revision he tries to make in hindsight.

 

In late/Dec of '75, while writing the fourth draft, he was talking about a 'trilogy' of sorts, but where the two sequels - 'Star Wars II' and 'Star Wars III', would have been BOOKS, instead of films.

 

I believe, at the very least, they were equal in rank (Vader and Tarkin). It seems Tarkin has "protection" from the Emperor due to his success as a military commander. If Vader did not listen to him on the station HE was commanding (and in front of Tarkin's subordinates), I think the Emperor would be displeased with Vader. Hence, Tarkin calls the shots on the Death Star.

Once Tarkin was killed in the Death Star explosion, Vader never had to placate any other Imperial officers. It seems that he, Palps and Tarkin were "the big three."

 

The only duel that wasn't good from a visual standpoint was ANH and that's because of the suit that Prowse wore, was too problematic and that problems with the Lightsaber tech being used at the time. He never said that the duels were bad, just that they were different from what he was going to do next.

This quote does exist, but I cannot recall where it was said. But what was said was Lucas wasn't fond of Vader fighting with one hand when it should have been two. He did change his mind about that, but by that point, ILM was a lot better at rotoscoping Lightsabers.

The first draft of ANH was filled with all kinds of story. It was when he went to work on the second draft, that his wife had helped convince him to break it down into three parts and concentrate on the first one. By the time he negotiated the deal to get the money to finish ANH and have creative control over the merchandising and the subsequent films, that is when he wanted to make three films. It was only formally announced by the end of 77, sometime in 78.

 

I always felt that Vader in ANH was basically Cerberus from Greek mythology.

 

In the sense that he could be lulled to sleep by singing for him?

 

Yes of course. Though now I wonder if Vader CAN sleep.

 

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

That being said, I don't think Vader ever slept, at least not in the sense that non-force users sleep. As we saw in ESB, he probably meditated for a few hours every day and that was all the "rest" that he needed.

As for who outranked who, I like the comparison to Hitler playing minions against one another. Tarkin probably had tacit control of the Death Star while Vader was the Emperor's representative tasked with making sure everything kept running on an even keel and both of them had the authority to take the other one out if they screwed up too severely. But given what happened to Tarkin when Luke blew up the DS, that probably saved Vader the trouble of kicking Tarkin's ass.

 

What you tarkin about Willis?

 

Sidious killed his master in his sleep. And being aware that someone else might do the same thing, he doesn't sleep at all, according to Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.

Not sure if Vader can do the same.

 

ROTF.... excellent point.

Which is half the reason these boards are so full of differing opinions, and most have roots in comments made by the "king" himself....

 

I only consider what comes out his mouth most recently to be canon.

 

There is a deleted scene in ROTJ where Vader goes to see Palpatine but Jerjerrod and the Royal Guards have orders not to let him into the throne room. Jerjerrod at first mouths off at Vader, then Vader starts to force choke him and the Royal guards are about to attack Vader when Jerjerrod explains he is just following Palpatine's orders. Vaders then stops force choking and walks away. My feeling is Vader is pretty much just an agent that does dirty work for Palpatine. TESB seems to be the only time Vader has high authority. Even when Vader first boards DS2, Jerjerrod is quite frank about Palpatine wanting the impossible done with not enough men to do it.

 

Apart from the almost hostile attitude Jerjerrod displays towards Vader in the deleted scene, yeah, he seems to be speaking to Vader as an equal in the opening scene. There's fear and a certain amount of deference, but his line "But he asks the impossible... I need more men" comes across as "Just between you and me". Vader, of course, puts an end to this and asserts his authority (as the 'Hand' of the Emperor), but Jerjerrod wouldn't have dared to speak so frankly to begin with if such authority was set in stone.

The deleted scene is another thing altogether, it reverts back to the contemptuous attitude the Imperials had towards Vader in SW/ANH. If Daddy's around, they can say what they like to the dog. You get the impression that Palps would have slapped Vader down just as hard as Tarkin did if he started pushing his officers around.

 

In fact, early on in the writing of ROTJ, that was the case. Palpatine used the Force to switch off Vader's suit when he got annoyed at him, in the revised rough draft that's online. In the EU, Palpatine had cut off Vader's hand when he told him about the Death Star's destruction and his failure to prevent it.

 

In the early EU, yes. After AoTC however, that explanation for Vader's right hand being artificial was invalidated. Now it's still possible for people in-universe to believe it- but it isn't true any more.

 

Not really. It was pretty much obvious that Vader had lost his limbs when he was put in the suit, especially when Obi-wan said that he was more machine than man. Cutting off his hand according to "Darksaber" isn't invalidated by AOTC. It just means that Vader punished him by inflicting pain on him.

 

I think it was Dark Force Rising that has that comment:

"Vader nearly died for that blunder. That was when he lost his right hand, in fact."


Vader's Quest, a later comic, still pre the last issue of which was released May 19th 1999, same day as TPM, also makes an allusion:

Any moment now my apprentice will come with yet another failure to report! He'll bow and apologize and offer another bit of his flesh, all the time hiding the truth I already know. I'll let him play his game, and I'll play it along with him, because ... it amuses me to do so.

Within the game there is a game and when I greet him I'll do so with these words -- "Hello, apprentice, Dark Lord of the Sith, Hello Darth Vader, Hello -- SKYWALKER!"

 

When Palps ordered Vader to the command ships is akin to a Father sending his kid to their room. I guess the idea is that despite Vader's power, he is still pretty much Palp's slave.