Saga Grandfather and grandson, Anakin and Kylo Ren: a comparison of characterizations and behaviors

ObiWanKnowsMe I think you need to edit

 

That would appear to be a lot of people.

 

This is so true for me as well, he just sucked, there was nothing there that intrigued me, I have little to no interest in knowing any more about him, or Rey for that matter (sorry, I know there are a lot of fans of her, I just don't get it). It is a shame as the film had the potential to be awesome, they were just no imagination. They are going to have to have one hell of a backstory to pique my interest again, which is a shame. But who know, maybe the next one will be amazing

 

Are there actually people who saw TFA and didn't think KR was a whiny lil b!@#$ ?? Wow, I didn't know that.

 

Something more like his portrayal in TCW, as a protagonist who's endearing so that his tragic fall is more impactful.

Kylo is an antagonist from the outset, and an incomplete one, on a sort of Villain's Journey. Add in his wit that I mentioned earlier, and there's room to like him as a character (rather than as a real person). But because of his role, there's no expectation of liking him.

The point is the two characters are positioned and portrayed differently, leading to the different perceptions of them.

 

Which scene was he whiny in?

 

I actually gave it a little chuckle, but it does take you out of the suspended disbelief of the SW universe. Imperial troops feared and respected Vader; the KR dynamic almost seemed like a parody skit from Robot Chicken than an actual scene from a serious film. Let's get this right, everyone in the First Order, KNOWS by definition, that Kylo Ren is a temper tantrum having maniac who has frequent outbursts where he destroys equipment? There is nothing respectable about this man, and his troops are kept in line ONLY by fear, not loyalty.

 

But I was going into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!

 

It's in the genes, Anakin and Luke were both whiny when young. Leia came as a bossy spoiled Princess at first. I think it's more about age, think about the little things we complained about when we were young. These young kids get put into world changing situations, but they're still kids.

 

And how is that any different from Vader? Do you seriously think he was respected? Did you watch the conference scene in ANH? These are fascistic militarists. They have common cause but it's dog eat dog. Divide and rule. The troopers are conditioned to be fearful of being disloyal or insubordinate.

 

Then you must think Palpatine is an even worse character. Palpatine aspires to be evil. Even worse his character doesn't really progress across six films. He's evil in the first one, and he dies evil in the last one. Yet, we never even get a hint of an explanation why he's evil. It's the dumbest ******* thing in the history of the Star Wars movies.

 

Palpatine is never intended to be a sympathetic character though. He's evil and he loves it.

 

The thread pretty much changed the conversation. I say the debate should end here since this is less of a criticism against both a more of a in-depth comparison. That's what I get from the thread titles intention at least.

 

So? The idea that Kylo Ren wants to be evil is painted as ridiculous, even though other characters better fit that criterium. I didn't get a sense Kylo Ren wanted to be evil. He wants to be powerful, and views his doubts and insecurities as a sign of weakness. He has a relationship to his mentor similar to a follower of a sect. Many people who fall for the charms of a leader of a sect come from normal stable homes. Family members are left wondering if they did something wrong. However, the reality is that people who fall for charlatans suffer from insecurities, and anxieties, which are exploited by someone like Snoke, who convinces him that he should break with his family, as a leader of a sect would. This in my view is the character of Kylo Ren. Some might not like it, but there are many real life Kylo's out there with loving parents, who hope to reach their child, and get them away from those that twist their minds, and feed off their insecurities.

 

This is my head canon; but if Imperial stormtroopers heard Vader's saber down the hallway and saw sparks flying, they would run to assist their lord, not walk away assuming baby Vader is having another hissy fit.

 

No, he just is. There is no try. There's no aspiration, he's evil all the time always, and he's having a blast with it. There's no aspiration being held back by his conscience, because he doesn't have one. Palpatine is basically the embodiment of evil, and he's a very entertaining character, which is all that really matters.

Kylo is supposed to be a human character struggling with good and evil; but instead of wanting to be good, he wants to be evil. Dumbest thing ever. Remember, Palpatine sold Anakin on Anakin wanting to be a person of conscience, not a person of no conscience.

You cannot deny that Kylo wants to rid himself of conscience and light, yet is struggling to do so. This is someone who is trying very hard to be an evil person, but is having a hard time. Not only is this the dumbest thing ever, but I find the character very, very boring. Very little entertainment, superficial or otherwise, to be had from him.

Now, you countered by saying he wants to be strong. Well, it's both.

I thought the blaster bolt catch and Force-freezing Rey was cool, but that was the only entertainment I got out of him the whole movie. I still have to deal with really lame attempts at humor, him whining about disappointing dad, the god awful emo kid devil worshipping scene where he apologizes to the Prince of Darkness/the long dead grandfather he never met for having a conscience, and prays to him to give him power. The latter scene may be the worst in the history of Star Wars, with only Anakin (whom I also hated) giving him competition. Kylo's visual and voice design is an utter bore, as well. Oh, and I don't think he's well acted by Adam Driver. I think the acting is pretty bad, actually.

 

YES. YES. YES. Like WTF!?

How is someone enjoying the spoils of being a villain while in secret praying to spirits to keep them from becoming good again?? Like...WTF!!??

 

Agreed!
Good points.

I don't get how anyone could think Klyo Ren is a great villain.
He sucks.

 

Having read through the thread it appears to be based on the fact that he doesn't whine, or even complain. Like, not even once

Agreed however the new thread title, while a good change highlights how far off the mark this comparison is. We should be comparing either Anakin Skywalker to Ben Solo or Darth Vader to Kylo Ren. Comparing Anakin, a Jedi apprentice/knight to Kylo, an already corrupted Dark Side user is largely pointless. Problem is we've seen nothing of Ben Solo, particularly the story of how he was attracted towards the DS in the first place. So for now, an Anakin-Ben comparison is impossible. Even comparing Vader & Kylo is problematic bcs we only have Kylo just a few years after being corrupted, while Vader in the OT is 20+ years into his DS career. He's a fully fledged Master of the Dark Side. It would be nice to see how Vader was coping just a few years after RotS. If he was prone to the occasional violent outburst before he learned to fully control his powers I wouldn't be at all surprised. Then in later years, rather than lose his **** & lash out he just calmly murdered Imperial officers for committing simple basic errors. I feel sure that in time Kylo will also reach that far more reasonable & mature state of mind.

 

"Dumbest ******* thing", weak ass brat, He sucks!, A whiny little *****. WTF!

Short summary of some of the more articulate arguments in this thread.

 

So the argument is that Kylo wants to be evil which is stupid and that makes him a poor character?

That's the stupidest thing in this thread yet?

The villain does not believe that they are evil. They believe that they are right.

Does Dooku joining Sidious and the darkside, then setting up a war mean that he wanted to be evil? Don't remember this nonsense criticism ever being levelled at him.

Or when Anakin says, "...the Jedi are evil." is he acknowledging that he's spent ten years aspiring to be evil before changing sides?

Utter poppycock.

Oh well if imaginary made up scenes in your head canon say so.

 

Honestly, I think it's a poor comparison to put Anakin up against Kylo. A better comparison would be comparing Kylo to Vader circa A New Hope. They largely fill the same roles in their respective movies and are both antagonists.