Grievous VS Tsavong Lah *Possible Spoilers*

Am I the only one who sees similarities between General Grievous and Warmaster Tsavong Lah? Both have a passionate grudge against Jedi, which eventually leads both of them to their deaths. Both are skilled in close combat. Both have contempt for cowardice (take Grievous' line: "Be thankful Viceroy, you have not found yourself in my grip.") And of course, they are both master strategists and leaders of their respective armies. That being said, who do you think would win in a battle. In an actual one-on-one fight?

Yeah... "vs." threads are generally not allowed.

 

Both have contempt for cowardice

Ironic that GL made Grievous run away constantly in RotS...

And of course, they are both master strategists and leaders of their respective armies.

Tsavong Lah? Master strategist? The scarhead wasn't worthy of licking the boots of a good strategist like Ackbar or Thrawn.

 

Grievous. He doesn't use the Force, but does just fine against Jedi who do, so Lah wouldn't exactly have an advantage.

 

Hmmmm...Somehow I don't think you become Warmaster of an entire species if you are a horrible strategist. He is at least on a par with Pellaeon, Kre'fey, Bel Iblis and Vader. And as for Grievous, I got the impression he was merely following Sidious' orders, in order to keep the only remaining strongman of the CIS alive, of course he didn't know that Sidious no longer had any further need for the Seps. And what about Grievous VS Lah in a space battle? A land battle?

 

Grievous

 

Tsavong Lah got promoted because of Vong religion and politics. His "strategies" consisted of almost nothing but overwhelming the New Republic with numbers. If the Yuuzhan Vong had a decent strategist they would have never lost the war. But he wasted troops constantly.

 

Interesting...if Quoreal had decided to invade the galaxy to end Sekot's threat, rather than escape from it, during the chaos of the Clone Wars, the Yuuzhan Vong would find it quite humiliating that their warmaster was defeated by a half-abomination. And yes, Lah did waste troops, but lots of times he was blinded by his hatred of the Jedi. And none of the Republic commanders were able to predict his use of hijacked refugee vessels as missiles.

 

Tsavong Lah would lose. Could you imagine his panic when fighting a being that was 98% abomination? The first punch Greivous landed would send Tsavong Lah running straight to the priests, where he would have whatever part of his body that got touched by Greivous lopped off.

Tsavong Lah was a good strategist. He was trying to conquer a galaxy that was filled with odd "Jeedai" and all sorts of strange technology that his shapers could not even tough - lest understand it because of the mandates of the gods. He was surrounded by subordinates that were either incompetent or traitorous. He had priests lopping off his arm, putting in implants, and trying to sabotage them. Given more freedom to investigate "Abominations" And people that weren't looking to backstab him, Lah would have proven to be a very good warmaster.

Carnage

 

Nice point, Carnage, but have you finished the NJO yet? I just don't want to accidentally spoil anything for you.

 

Tsavong Lah had plenty of intel. Far more than the New Republic had. In his position I would have told the shapers to learn about it or be thrown in a pit and buried in it.

Allowing your hatred to get in the way of strategy is part of what made him a bad strategist. Would Thrawn have wasted thousands of men to capture Luke Skywalker? Would Thrawn have fought to the death when retreating meant he would have better odds in the long run?

Of course he wouldn't have. No good strategist does is wasteful. That's the difference between someone who uses strategy and someone who just throws troops until his target is down.

 

Point taken about the wasting troops, though the same could be argued for Darth Vader. And as too the whole shapers and intel thing, would you dare risk to go against the will of Shimmra (and Lah wouldn't know about Shimrra's heresy) the emmisary from the gods, who was rumored to have powers beyond that of any Yuuzhan Vong, let alone the fact that he was your superior?

 

He did take over most of the galaxy in a couple of years. The divide and conquer was one of his I think. Turning everyone against the Jedi. The two pronged attack against Coruscant was alright as well. Unfortunate for him that one of the prongs was snapped off before they got to Coruscant. Ebaq he might have won if not up against Ackbar.

 

If it meant getting intel I needed for the war I would do whatever I had to do. Behind Shimmra's back if need be.

 

Tsavong Lah: "Lord Shimmra, we have successfuly routed the enemy."
Shimmra: "Excellent work, Warmaster! But tell me, what led to such a turnabout?"
Lah: "...The gods will always prevail! We did nothing but serve our cause!"
Shimmra: "Liar! I can sense your deception! Nas Choka, throw him in the yar'ghun pit!"
Lah: *gulp*
Onimi: *snicker*

 

Well, I think the Vader deflection might have been a bit off topic, but to comment on that, I'm not sure if Vader was renown as a cunning strategist to begin with. He was the Emperor's premier agent and a cunning warrior, but not a military strategist. I think part of that can be attributed to his recklessness during the clone wars as Anakin Skywalker.

My only experience with Grievous is his portrayal in the movies. Though I've read the Unknown Soldier article, and my buddy has told me a bit of what's in Labrynth of Evil, I don't know too much about him as a strategist. Like someone commented, Lucas always depicted Grievous as fleeing from battle, and of course Mace Windu blatantly calls him a coward.

As far as fighting prowess, I don't know if Tsavong Lah would have much of a chance. The psychological implications of fighting an abomination (not only is he a machine, but he is only PART machine. They viewed Luke's bearing of a mechanical hand to be utter blasphemy; think of how they would perceive six limbs!) certainly would give Grievous the upper hand. Tsavong Lah also seemed to be kind of a push over, considering the way he went out in (Destiny's Way?) the NJO.

Gee, imagine the implications of this hypothetical rivalry: the Vong would be invading the galaxy during the Clone Wars. Now think of the Yuuzhan Vong facing an entire droid army? One word for their temperment in such a situation: PISSED.

 

Yes, I think we are getting a bit off topic here, but I find the whole Yuuzhan Vong invade during the Clone Wars-thing interesting. The Vong would probably go out of their way just to kill Gunray and the rest of the Neimoidians (Gunray: "Please! We only want-" Yuuzhan Vong warrior decapitates him) or would they collaborate with the Vong? Anyway, would CIS technology really be superior to Yuuzhan Vong? I imagine that Lah would just release grutchins on the CIS fleet, and Grievous would be powerless to stop the confusion the droids would be going through.

 

Actually Nas Choka struck me as a more competant warmaster than Tsavong Lah. He wasn't nearly as stupid about sticking to Yuuzhan Vong warrior tradition.

 

I also must cast my vote for Grievous. The main villain of the first half of the NJO could have been beaten by ol' gutsack... that's just sad.

 

Grievous. Guy who has armor that's proof against fricking starfighter bolts and has personally killed a hundred Jedi vs. a guy who got pwned by frickin 4'10" Jaina? righto.

 

What is this supposed to be comparing - their abillity to lead ground or space battles or a one on one deathmatch?

 

One on one deathmatch, I believe.

On a warfighting scale, I'd say Grievous too. They both have alot of things in common-no qualms about burning worlds to the ground, a willingness to take massive casualties, and so on.

But Grievous is one thing Lah is not-he's cold. Lah's need for revenge ultimately led to his death, whereas Grievous doesn't bear such grudges. He just kills you.

 

Bah. Tsavong Lah nearly conquered a galaxy, that should have his forces out-numbered and out-classed by an order of magnitude and which should have known how to fight a war (after twenty years of GCW). He only went over the edge in Destiny'sWay because Onimi was messing with his mind.

About Grievous. At the battle of Coruscant "running away" was always his intention the moment the Chancellor was kidnapped. He was only ordered to do otherwise by Sidious and Dooku, what turned a quick and simple raid into a prolonged battle. And on Utapau he was leaving the battle, because Obi-Wans reinforcements had arrived (Utapau doesn't make him a coward, but an idiot, instead of having Obi-Wan being killed by his droids he fights him in a man-o-man-duel and gives the clones time to arrive. Did he really think Obi-Wan was alone or what?).

 

Hm...I was under the impression that's not what happened. The Republic merely blocked their retreat from Coruscant, cutting the CIS off at the pass, allowing the rescue attempt to take place.

Mace Windu outright calls him a coward, and says he always runs away. IMO, the EU botched what could have been a pretty cool, if different, villain. Without the CW cartoon and the seemingly unsupported notion that he's a Jedi killing machine, Grievous' snaffoo at Utapau would be characteristic, and his whipping out his lightsabers would be a surprise for Obi-Wan, hence Grievous' line introducing his ability to fight. His arrogance is understandable, cuz he's arrogant and may want to flex his muscles against a guy who's pissed him off and ruined his flagship. In addition, it would explain why Grievous gets pwnd real early in hand to hand combat.

 

Mace has been wrong on several occasions before. Besides, I can recall several instances of Mace strategically withdrawing himself when he knows he's beaten. Does that make him a coward?

I think the EU made Greivous out to be exactly what he was supposed to be: a cunning (if not necessarily brilliant) general whose cybernetic enhancements made him a match for most Jedi. It's the movie that ruined him, making him asthmatic and having his only fight scene be against a Jedi Master whose style is uniquely suited to fighters just like him. But other than that (and his voice, GOD I hated his movie voice), he was a pretty decent character.


As to the original topic of the post, in a one-on-one deathmatch Grievous would destroy Tsavong Lah. No contest; Tsavong Lah couldn't even kill a wounded Jedi whose feet were stuck in one place. Granted, that Jedi was Jaina Solo, but still, Lah was a complete pushover.

As a commander, though, I'd put them roughly equal, with Grievous maybe having a slight edge. It's important to remember that a lot of Grievous's "genius" came from the fact that he had amazing amounts of enemy intelligence with which to plan his war; he wasn't winning all his victories on his own, so to speak. Tsavong Lah was a bit of an idiot, though. His mind for command was decent (he understood the YV psyche very well and knew exactly how to motivate his troops), but he let it become too clouded by emotion and religious dogma. He had some strategies other than simply "Throw warriors at the enemy until we win", but that was the one he used most often.