Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)

BTW, I didn't say they'd *lose* to China. I said they'd have a hard time.

3 million clones might be enough to secure a planet. Maybe. There is no way in hades they could wage war on a galaxy.

 

The Grand Army of the Republic and the Republic Space Navy both had the finest equipment in the galaxy of the day. Securing a planet wouldn't be the main challenge with three million, as the Rim worlds outside of the Republic's jurisdiction (which surely had rules governing army size) were usually too poor to afford a large, decently equipped planetary defense force on both the ground and in space. However, it's a whole galaxy with millions of planets in the Known Regions alone. They'd be spread way too thin, even if none of them died during the Wars at all (obviously and clearly not the case).

 

Sure it is, but the man inside is just a man inside. The momentum would still injure him. I'm sure the armor is impressive, but it is not a "get out of jail" card. I could shoot a clone trooper in the helmet with my rifle (30-06), and it would quite literally take his head off at the neck. No matter how hard the helmet is, his neck is what holds his head on. Same thing with arms, legs, whatever.

Please pay attention. I quite clearly said "without air or orbital support."

 

Uh, with missiles, artillery and tanks of their own. Simple eh?

EDIT: If the Clones didnt have air/orbital support, how do they get to China in the first place?

 

It'd be sadistically amusing to see what China would do against AT-TEs, AT-PTs, and SPHA-Ts.

 

The problem with this line of reasoning is that they wouldn't be liberating the planet from its own forces. That is a contradiction of terms. They'd be liberating it from *Separatist* forces.
I've already shown that the TF alone can invade a planet with multiple millions of battle droids. You'd have to defeat that many, and defend against that many coming again.

 

I think Karen and Ryan did a masterful job discussing three items to account for the seemingly startling discrepancy in numbers between the GAR and the CIS Droid Army:

1. Superior deployment and engagment techniques
2. self-inflated CIS numbers
3. poorer-and-poorer quality and lower-and-lower quantity of driod production

These reasons alone help to bridge the gap of numbers.

Furthermore, Karen and Ryan left it deliciously open for larger numbers of clones produced at other cloning facilities (whether on Kamino, Coruscant, or elsewhere).

Also, who's to say local forces couldn't "occupy" their own planet after and with the help of Republic troops? I think this is quite likely, especially considering this bit related to Commander Gree:

"Commander Gree became an experton alien species and customs." His 41st Elite forged "alliances with native populations."

Millions to hold a planet, eh? We might be thinking a little too much of our militaty "expertise," here, friends. This is a fictional arena, and while our own logic and opinions might lead us to think things should be a certain way, I would like to quote a very wise person:

"Fans do have encyclopaedic knowledge, but like authors, they don't ever have the complete picture, and none of us ever can."

So, just because it doesn't make sense to you right now, doesn't mean it can never make sense or that it HAS to make sense.

Bravo, Karen and Ryan. Your efforts to appease fans and contribute to the Saga are highly commendable! If we had fan-given awards for the EU creators, you two would be up for many, many of them!

Yeah, you know Karen and Ryan... they hate you all and love to sew confusion, frustration, and angst. Get a grip, fanboys!

"I know quite a bit about real guns, being a hunter."

No offense, but that statement cracks me up! I'm sure you have so much more experience and expertise that it surpasses the research and insight Karen and Ryan put into this article. Good God, we fans can be so full of ourselves!

But this topic is not about how much more you think you know than Karen or Ryan or anyone else (which, I can assure, is such a misconception it's not funny!) or who could win (and how) between the GAR and China. This topic is about the article and discussing it, so please, knock this crap off.

 

I, for one would have liked to see delta or omega squad storm shanghai.....

Back to the point at hand: there obviously must have been token forces of clones guarding most republic planets. The various senators would be demanding it, needed or not.

 

Irrelevant. It is an example meant to put things into perspective. These guys think that a few ground troops can defeat a planet full of battledroids. They don't take into account that air or space support also involves many more thousands of troops per planet. I guess those stardestroyers, gunships, and starfighters just fly themselves?
It simply takes manpower to occupy a planet. No matter the technology. Period.

Sure they'd fight China with missiles, artillery, and tanks. But that other dude doesn't understand that those things can penetrate trooper armor. I'm sorry, but a troop can't carry armor that would stand up to a 2000 pound bomb.

 

Wait, the ships were fully staffed by clones?

 

Local forces can't occupy the planet, because those same local forces couldn't defend from the invasion in the first place. (rolls eyes)

Do I know more than the people who claim that the GAotR is made up of 3 million troops to fight over a galaxy. I guess so. Otherwise, they would know better. But that statement about firearms had nothing to do with them. Or you. It had to do with body armor shrugging off heavy fire.

As fas as knocking it off, tell that to the authors, who bothered posting numbers in the first place. If they are going to post numbers, they should make an ounce of sense. Otherwise, don't post numbers at all. Furthermore, if you think it is so silly, why did you post a very long message about the topic??? Why don't *you* simply shrug it off and go post about something that you feel is worth your attention?

 

No they weren't, but they were staffed, automatically shooting the numbers through the stratosphere.

 

Leto: they had the cloning facility at the Dantooine enclave up and running for the Clone Wars?

*wants to see a Revan clone pop up in the Prequels*

Hang on... Dantooine, KotOR, Sunriders, Imperial takeover... *smothered by clone hoojibs*

And... ED "self-inflated CIS numbers"?

Blow-up battledroids?

Canon go boom?

I like the way this seems to be nicely ambiguous, though...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Well, perhaps I reading a bit much into the following statements from page 25, under the heading of "Numbers""

The strength of the Separatist forces was often quoted as quadrillions..."

and...

"... a significant portion of the droid army was either half-complete or incorrectly assembled."

So, from a certain point of view, you could have an in-universe explanation that the CIS was reporting production numbers that were not accurate for various reasons, not the least of which might be an attempt to intimidate through numbers.

Indeed. The more and more I read it, the more and more I realize just how flexible and open for possibilities the article truly is.

 

Well look at it this way, the Grand Army is the highest organizational category for the clone army, correct? Well who's to say that the Republic didn't have a few dozen Grand Armies at its disposal.

Seriously this is the only way to try and rationalize these numbers. Laybrinth of Evil states that 200,000 troops is half of the Coruscant Home Fleet troops, meaning that there are already 400,000 clone troopers used simply to defend the capital. Not to mention that in addition to the Home Fleet's troops there are the many thousands of clonetroopers doing security duty throughout Galactic City. This immediately reduces the rest of the Grand Army to 2.6 million troops. Nearly all the major powers of the Second World War fielded more than that. Hell, Russia lost more men than that, and that was a conflict on a single planet that would only be moderately-populated by SW standards.

 

jedimasterED posted on 9/20/05 7:16pm

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Indeed. The more and more I read it, the more and more I realize just how flexible and open for possibilities the article truly is. [hr][/blockquote]

It doesn't seem to be to me. The ORBAT column quite explicitly states that the Grand Army is made up of ten System Armies, each headed by a Jedi Council member. The Gradn Army itself is lead by the Chancellor. Unless there are multiple Grand Armies, and by extension more than twelve council members, then the figure stands at an unfortunate mere 3 million clones. Which, as mentioned by others, is absurd.

I love Karen and Ryan's work, but... the numbers here just don't make too much sense.

 

The idea that the CIS army was led by incompetents is refuted by the official databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/generalgrievous/

Grievous wasn't just some cool Jedi-slayer. He was a military mastermind who could have probably given Thrawn a run for his money.

 

The 3 million number would have to be for one "Grand Army", with others in existance in order to justify this incredibly low number. The problem there was the whole speech with Palpatine creating a "Grand Army of the Republic" (singular). Further, I don't see how the movies themselves even support this 200:1 kill ratio or what have you. We saw many clonetroopers go down in battle with the droids and not kill 200 each time. Unless the clonetroopers that we see in actual battle is somehow not indicitive of their actual abilites.

Quite frankly Ossus nailed my feelings on it as well.

 

Half a billion is 500 million, which is almost 100 times what you calculated. And even that is too little.

Grievous doesn't need to be everywhere. He was the Supreme Commander of the CIS forces, and therefore would have made all the important strategic decisions. He served a role similar to Thrawn during the Thrawn Trilogy, so it is only logical that his leadership would have a similar effect.

 

Oops! I'm embarrased. Had a little short-circuit! I know 5,000,000 isn't half a billion!

is 500,000,000 or 5,000,000 is "too little"? And for whom? You? Others? Sometimes it takes a little more to suspend disbelief. We're willing to suspend it for the Force but not for this... we make interesting choices.

"Only logical" that GG=Thrawn? Perhaps for you. Also, it seems every single strategy devised by the Grand Admiral depicted in the Thrawn Trilogy was directly overseen by Palleon and Thrawn.

While GG doesn't need to be everywhere to plan strategy, those strategems appear to work best when he is directly commanding the forces employed therein. So, I apply my logic to deduce that, even the best laid plans of mouse droids and cyborg generals can be undone by poor field commanders.

This is boiling down to point of view and preference, not absolute right and absolute wrong. I choose to see it one way. Others choose to see it another way.

 

What universe are you from? Since when is 5,000,000 a half a billion? 5,000,000 is half of 10,000,000.

500,000,000 is half a billion. [EDIT] Apologies, didn't notice this error was corrected[/EDIT]

5 million troops is still absurdly tiny, and unjustifiable against quadrillions or quintillions of battleedroids, no matter how you justify it.

 

"No matter how you justify it"?

So, there can be absolutely nothing that could explain a fighting force of around 5,000,000 troops defeating a fighting force of (perhaps) 1,000,000,000,000,000?

Not even if the force of 1,000,000,000,000,000 was actually much smaller (due to incomplete and malfunctioning troops)?

Not even if the smaller force was significantly (perhaps "supernaturally") more efficient and had much, much higher kill ratios?

Not even if the smaller force grew as the larger force dwindled?

Not even if the master planner at the center of it all planned for the smaller force to win all along?

Not even if this were all a make-believe, space fantasy?

Not even if the tellers of the fantasy simply ask you to trust them?

Well, then clearly you are right and everyone else is wrong. We should just all stop now and forget this fantastic epic tale ever took place. It just doesn't make sense any more. Forget about the prophesied Chosen One. Forget about the 25,000-year old Republic. Forget about the mystical energy field that binds the galaxy together. Forget about the exotic locales and the amazing variety of sentient life. Forget about the grand adventure in the battle of good versus evil. Forget about the tiny group of insurgents known as the Rebellion defeating the massively oppressive Empire.

Oh, no!

It is all for naught! Some of us just can't wrap our minds around the idea that this much smaller force could defeat the much larger force. That is simply too much to let happen in the GFFA. 5,000,000 clones and their Jedi Generals defeating (perhaps) 1,000,000,000,000,000 droids and their single military genius cyborg general is patently too far-fetched to allow into this story.

I weep for imagination.

 

Sorry, ED, but the minute that you start to try and rationalize it all by saying "it's just a space fantasy," you utterly shatter the sense of verisimilitude that is so integral to Star Wars. Yes, it's science fiction; yes, it's make believe; but like all good stories the universe is internally consistent. A Jedi can levitate objects, but isn't immortal. People can travel faster than light in starships, but can't shoot laser beams out of their eyes. And a mere three million clones is simply not anywhere close enough to make any sense.

Ignore for a second how incredibly unbelievably outnumbered they are by the Separatist battledroid force. Look, for example, at Coruscant, a world with a population of one trillion. Many sources have shown that toward the end of the war clones were used as homeworld security and military police personnel; that they were ubiquitous on the capitol. For this to be possible, imagine how many clones would have to be stationed there-- even if there were a million clones based on Coruscant, they would still be outnumbered a million to one by Coruscant's citizens. Hardly ubiquitous.

Here's another way to look at it: as it currently stands, the clone army is only 30 times the size of the number of American troops stationed in Europe as of 2000 (AD). When the United States deems it necessary for a hundred thousand troops to be stationed in on a friendly continent during peacetime with now hostile powers nearby, doesn't it seem a bit ludicrous to expect a mere 30 times that number of troops to be able to effectively fight a galactic scale war across at the very least thousands of planets-- all the while functioning not only as infantry, but as police, pilots, and capship crews as well?

 

I'm sorry, but not even 5 million troops make sense. We lost several times that amount in the last World War, yet are expected to believe a force of lesser size is expected to somehow be able to defend and wage war across a galacticscale? Even taking into effect all things trying to be used as justification, the numbers still do not simply add up, at all.

 

The article doesn't say that it's five million, anyway. The only way you get that is if you read it wrong.