main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Senate Gun Control

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Dec 14, 2012.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I'm thinking cities/states bringing (maybe 1-3) police officers to schools could be the most effective, and shouldn't be too costly since it would mostly just be diverting existing police resources along with some new training.
     
  2. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    @Kimball_Kinnison

    You might as well say murder is a distraction to the problem because 99.999% of people are not convicted of murder each year.

    The US is 12th in the league table of firearm related deaths. Most of them are suicides.
     
  3. EHT

    EHT Anthology Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Just a note for all those saying that gun control would only prevent law abiding citizens from getting guns: all three guns at the scene of the crime belonged to Lanza's mother, who purchased them legally. After he killed her at home, he took her guns and her car to the school.

    Also, apparently 90% of the guns that have been used at all school shootings in US history were ones that were legally purchased.

    And as if it even needs to be said again, it's much easier to buy a gun than it is to make bombs. Just as it's much easier to pull a trigger multiple times than it is to run around stabbing people with a knife. It's just stupid to even have to point things this obvious out.
     
    V-2 and Juliet316 like this.
  4. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    And suicide is a completely different issue. Personally, I don't think it's the government's place to tell someone that they can't end their own life, as long as they aren't endangering others as they do so. The right to life must inherently include the right to end that life.

    Firearms are a tool. They can be used for good (hunting, self defense, law enforcement, etc), or evil (threatening, injuring, killing, etc). When you focus on the tool instead of the person wielding it, you are avoiding the real source of the problem.

    A large part of the problem is how we deal with mental health. On that front, there is plenty of blame to spread around. For example, many mental hospitals were closed in the 1980s because of a combination of the efforts of civil rights advocates (who were opposed to committing people against their will), privacy advocates (who opposed such things as notifying parents of possible issues with their teenage or adult children's mental health) and small government advocates (who wanted to reduce the government's influence). And yet, you cannot just dismiss the concerns raised by each of those groups, as they are very real and valid.

    There are no quick, clean, easy answers. But, if your focus is on the tool rather than the person behind it, you aren't asking the right questions.
     
    DarthButt likes this.
  5. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    The right questions are being asked, it's just that gun apologists wants to have a different conversation altogether. ;)

    I identify the problem as gun related death. Controversially, I regard gun related death as a bad thing.

    You wanted to look at statistics, well, the USA leads the developed world in the rates of deaths from guns. That is literally the problem that needs solving.

    Hunting and sport I'll grant you purely for the sake of a shorter argument. Given the availability of guns and the level of gun crime in the USA, I'll concede the need for American police to carry guns. But self defence is certainly not a good use of firearms. Guns are tools specifically designed to maim and kill. There are not many circumstances that can be made better by maiming and killing. This is a very serious point.

    The availability of guns correlates with increased gun related mortality. Limiting the legal availability of guns tends to correlate with lower rates of gun related mortality. It's not the be all and end all of the solution, but it's such a blindingly obvious thing to do if you want to reduce the rate of gun related deaths.
     
    Juliet316 likes this.
  6. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Self defense is not a good use of firearms? What tools am I to use then to defend myself? A knife? I would prefer not to be that close to my attacker. Am I to use a crossbow or a bow and arrow?

    Surely you don't mean to insinuate that I rely on the police who took over half an hour to get to my house the last time.

    And there are circumstances where killing and maiming can make situation better. A man breaks into my house, me killing him makes the situation better.
     
    ForgottennJedi1986 likes this.
  7. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    OK but if the problem is that the people with these tools are too stupid, too selfish, too disrespectful of life to be allowed to have them. A hammer isn't dangerous generally, but in the hands of a child, it can be lethal, if used on other children.

    When Americans stop being too stupid to own guns, then we can focus on the rest of the "issues" there. But otherwise? Nobody else has these problems. America, however, does. In most countries I've been to, if people got a giant, throbbing erection over firearms they'd rightly be branded lunatics and distrusted. For Americans, that's just one of the things that gets you into the NRA.

    I'm angry that you're taking such an indefensible position, KK, because you should know better. Your people have disgraced themselves. Your people have soiled and sullied the object and purpose of the second amendment. When a child cannot show sufficient responsibility with a toy, the toy is taken away. When a nation - who might as well be children, given the blithe indifference to consequences; poor decision making skills and the irresponsibility you associate with kids - can't show responsibility with a lethal tool, then they have forfeited their right to access that tool.

    That, or arm everyone, and please just kill each other until none remain. That way none of us have to feel fear, anger and heartbreak in the next 6 weeks when some other unhinged Yank goes "postal" on the innocent.
     
  8. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    You could try running away.That would be the best way to put distance between you and your attacker.

    Relying on the police would be preferable to killing someone, yes. I accept that there are some places that are more lawless than others, but the prevalence of guns is a massive part of that problem.

    Murder/manslaughter is not an appropriate response to trespass or burglary. By firing your gun in a residential area you're increasing the risk of someone catching a stray bullet. By killing your attacker you're adding to the rate of deaths from handguns, which is the problem that needs solving.

    Limiting the availability of guns would reduce your risk of coming into contact with guns.
     
  9. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm not sure how to begin, since I can't really linger too long on this post as it's ripe with cow excrement.

    Firstly; when was the last time you needed to defend yourself. I am comfortable with any scenario, so it need not be firearm specific.

    Secondly, what's the rate of home invasion style crimes in your area?

    Thirdly, how do you suppose people in other countries defend themselves with firearms aren't readily available?

    EDIT: V2, when people talk out of their ass, you need to call them on it. Not try and reason with them. GenAntilles has spoken some utter tosh and needs to explain himself. Not to find other sophistic responses to your points.
     
  10. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    @Ender_Sai
    I'd click 'like' but that was a bit personal. ;)
     
  11. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Based on my own experience, this is really good advice.

    When I was a teenager, my family had issues with one of our neighbors when we posted "No Hunting" signs around our property and that neighbor quickly became belligerent and threatened my mother with a shotgun.

    We had to call the police and get a restraining order against him because of that situation but I remember my parents did seriously consider getting a gun because of that incident. They found the idea very distasteful, though, because my brother was still a toddler at the time and, to be honest, they both hate guns. The officer we consulted with, though, made it clear that we should not purchase a firearm -- that it would only escalate tensions. He advised us instead to get nonlethal protection -- pepper spray, essentially.

    We also asked the police to patrol near our property more often (which they did). And this system ended up working well for us. But I do think that even when it comes to home defense and self-protection, not enough people consider the fact that guns have the potential to produce a worse outcome than what might have originally occurred had the homeowner not been armed.
     
    V-2 likes this.
  12. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    YEAH BUT HOW DO YOU STOP THE ENGLISH TAKING BACK AMERICA FOR THEMSELVES, IF YOU DON'T HAVE GUNS?
     
  13. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Keep putting sugar in bread and having really dreadful tea.
     
  14. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Oh yeah, your bread is dreadful stuff.

    But I spose I didn't consider how GenAntilles must be scared of redcoats breaking into his house at night. Thoughtless of me, I suppose.
     
  15. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    I suppose I could try running away, unless he likely catches me first as I'm not a fast runner. Or more likely shoots me with the gun he was attacking me with, because as a criminal he'll likely be able to have one.

    Police respond to crimes. Someone kicked open my front door and I huddled with my family in our bedroom while I stood by with a baseball bat waiting for the door to open. Police arrived half hour later. Yeah... I'm going to rely on them to save me. The only thing I trust them to do is contain the scene and get a CSI crew to my house after I'm dead.

    Yes it is. Someone breaks into my home I will do everything in my power to ensure they lack the ability to respond or retaliate. I do not care that the burglar is dead, he forfeited his life and I don't care. His death is not a tragedy, it is a good thing as now there is one less piece of filth in the world. And I can go to bed and sleep knowing there is a 100% chance he will not do it again.

    It's not just guns I'm worried about. A big strong guy comes at me with a knife he'll win. He comes at me with a bat he'll win. A gun equalizes us.

    Insults, nice. I'm so glad someone of your intellect is here.:rolleyes: Really bravo. Feel better about yourself? Feel like a grown up now talking down to people you disagree with? Show some maturity.

    Lets see... there was the time someone busted open my front door at 4:00 in the morning. Or the time someone my dad fired left work and drove to our house drunk with a bat and tried to force his way in screaming he was going to us all. Or the time one of my sisters ex boyfriends tried to break in the house and rob us cause he thought we were gone, I was still home when he tried it.

    Honestly don't know the rates, all I know is someone broke into our garage and stole a vcr out of our van, along with the other incidents I described previously.

    It would depend I suppose. If farm equipment is available that can be useful, pitchforks, axes, hoes, etc... Also large kitchen knives which I usually use along with baseball bats, I keep one by my bed every night to be safe. I suppose swords are an option if you have them hanging around the house. Bow and arrow and crossbows... I don't know if they would have much use in close quarters. So ideally you grab what weapon you can, hold up in the most defensible area, stand ready and hope you last until the police arrive. And if they don't arrive in time you try to take your attacker with you or at least make him pay with as much blood as you can.

    I'll keep your advice in mind the next time I read one of your posts. :)

    Edit.

    Also to be clear I don't own a gun. And Ender, I would've sided with the British if I was alive back then. Treason is treason.
     
    ForgottennJedi1986 likes this.
  16. tom

    tom SFTC July Winner star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    guns actually aren't a "tool that can be used for good or for evil". there is nothing "good" that a gun can do. a gun can only destroy, that is literally its only function. hunting is not "good". the only argument you could make that it's a good activity is that you personally enjoy it. well good for you, but a lot of people enjoy a huge assortment of reprehensible activities and it doesn't make those activities inherently good.

    as for the self defense question, that "my only options are gun and knife" line of thinking has to be intentional naivety. there are plenty of non-lethal self defense options such as pepper spray and things of that nature. but as v-2 said, running away is probably a better option. or if you're being robbed, just give them your money. that's what i did when i had a knife held to my throat in chicago. never once have i thought that situation would have been improved if i had shot the guy.

    the only time i can imagine a gun being needed for self defense is if your attacker also had a gun. in which case their gun is presumably already out and pointed at you, and again you would be better off running or negotiating than going for your own gun.
     
    Ender_Sai and V-2 like this.
  17. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Killing some people is a good. I reject the notion that someone dying is always bad. There are plenty of people whose deaths would be a great service to the world.
     
  18. tom

    tom SFTC July Winner star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    don't make me quote gandalf.
     
    RC-1991 and Ender_Sai like this.
  19. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Flood the streets with corn startch and watch their movements slow to a crawl. Bonus: molasses as well.
     
  20. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    GenAntilles
    I hope you don't take this personally, but I realise what follows will probably seem massively offensive. There's probably a more diplomatic way to say this but...

    I don't think someone who would be willing to kill someone over a petty theft or drunken argument should be allowed anywhere near a gun.
     
  21. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Gandalf also concealed carried, as Saruman and Grimma found out the hard way when he exorcised Theoden.

    But I will never believe that had a police officer killed the school shooter before he could kill his first victim that the world was not a better place because of it.

    I agree. If someone breaks into my house I will first politely engage him in a discussion as to his intentions regarding his intrusion. If he informs me that he wises to rob me of my possessions I will ask how much he plans on taking. If the amount is trivial, say less than $1000 I will inform him that I will wait in my room for the police to arrive. If however he tells me he will take all that he can and then kill me and my family I will kindly inform him that I will attempt to kill him so as to prevent that from happening.

    Let me be very clear. If someone breaches my home I will assume they have the absolute worst intentions in mind and as such I will exercise all available force to end that threat once and for all. And since I lack a gun that will likely be with knives and a baseball bat. I will not rely on the hope that they are really a decent person and their intentions are not that evil. I WILL NOT put the lives and safety of myself or my family below that of a criminal.
     
  22. tom

    tom SFTC July Winner star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    well yeah, just like it would have been great if a giant piano fell on him and killed him as he approached the school. or if, i don't know... he didn't have access to guns!

    one of those is almost a scenario i could imagine.
     
    Juliet316 and V-2 like this.
  23. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    I don't think anyone's saying the world wouldn't be a better place without him. But if you're going down that path then you're no better than that lunatic who decided who lived and who died. He apparently thought the world would bea better place without his mother or those children.
     
    V-2 likes this.
  24. GenAntilles

    GenAntilles Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2007
    The difference being he was wrong.

    I agree, he should not have access to guns. And the hijackers on 9/11 shouldn't have had access to airplanes.
     
  25. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    This seems reasonable.
     
    Juliet316 likes this.