CT Han and Leia scene on the Falcon in Empire Strikes Back and modern romantic norms

Right. The Muppet Show is still amazing. I enjoy watching it. The rightfully placed disclaimers in front of the episodes with problematic depictions do not detract from my enjoyment at all.

 

Forty years ago that context would be more important than the actual words.

Not so if the scene were made now.

 

I call it becoming more straightforward and having better norms around consent.

Not “dumb” at all.

 

@Lobot's Wig I wouldn't say that I misunderstand the scene since I understand how it was meant to be interpreted. For instance, I understand that I was supposed to see Han as being romantic and right in forcing Leia to acknowledge her feelings for him and to view his behavior as totally acceptable and to even maybe gasp and say, "Aww." As a kid viewing ESB, I even fell into that category, seeing the scene as heartwarming, romantic, adorable, and worthy of an "Aww."

However, as a grown woman who has actually had to deal with men who decided they knew my feelings better than I did and refused to take no for an answer and generally kept harassing me despite my unambiguous attempts to get them to stop, I don't find the scene romantic. I don't think it's right that Han put Leia in a situation that obviously made her uncomfortable to try to force her to acknowledge her feelings for him. And I don't think his behavior in the scene was acceptable. Nor does it make me say, "Aww" now. It's more likely to make me face palm or squirm awkwardly.

To me, Han comes across as consistently disrespecting Leia in that scene. First, he comes up behind her in a confined space where she has limited maneuverability and then presses his body against hers in a way that she plainly finds unwelcome and uncomfortable as she pulls away from him. Him even thinking that he had a right to come up behind her and press his body against hers like that was pretty disrespectful in my opinion. Then he acts all offended as if she is wrong to assert her bodily autonomy and maintain her personal space with the lie that he is only trying help and calling her "Your Worship" in a mocking way. Then when she politely asks him to please stop calling her that, he answers sarcastically with "Sure, Leia" and when she correctly points out that he makes things difficult sometimes (like sneaking up behind her in a confined space and touching her inappropriately), he continues the sarcastic act with the "I do, I really do." After that he proceeds to tell her that she could be nicer though. Presumably being nicer means that she has to submit to Han's advances and that her raising any objections to his advances is her not being nice enough.

Then he presses her to admit that sometimes she thinks he is all right. As if she would then have to submit to his advances if she did think he was sometimes all right. When her thinking he is sometimes all right would still not give Han the right to make advances on her especially if she indicates in actions and words that those advances are unwelcome or are making her uncomfortable in any way, which to me, she consistently demonstrated throughout the scene up to this point.

Han also keeps rubbing her hand after she has told him to stop that. As soon as she told him to stop that, he should have stopped that. No questions. No arguments. That would've been the only respectful response and action at that point. Because that is Leia clearly voicing a boundary that deserves to be respected and not violated even if Han wants to try to force her to acknowledge her feelings or whatever.

Instead, Han plays dumb as if he doesn't know what she is telling him to stop doing even though it is clear that she is telling him to stop rubbing her hand. That is not being respectful.

As for Leia trembling, Han interprets that as romantic and that is apparently what the movie wants us to think, but in reality, women often tremble when they are trapped in a confined space and being subjected to physical and sexual advances that make them uncomfortable and where their requests to stop the advances have been repeatedly ignored or mocked.

As for the depiction of Han and Leia's kiss, to me it comes across as male wish fulfillment/fantasy, reinforcing the problematic beliefs that "stop that" means "please continue to harass me and violate my established boundaries" and that if a woman is continually forced into "acknowledging her feelings" by the guy, she'll somehow end up recipriocating the dude's feelings instead of finding the dude creepy. And that's precisely why I consider the scene problematic.

 

It’s not “reverting”. Some of us like honesty. That’s not “dumb,” quite the opposite.

And I’m not confused. I understand the intent of the scene. I also understand that it would not fly today, because we are past dumb game playing and just say what we want.

Also, while it has been quite a few years since I was on the dating scene—like @devilinthedetails , I never appreciated it when a man assumed, quite insistently, that what I actually said was not what I meant.

 

@Lobot's Wig Thanks. I don't have anything against you as a poster nor to be clear do I have anything against people who like Han/Leia as a couple in ESB or anywhere else (I like Han/Leia as a couple for the most part in ESB and certainly throughout other Star Wars media). Nor do I have a problem necessarily with people liking that scene. It's fine if you don't understand or share my perspective on that scene or anything else Star Wars related. I can't force you or anyone else to understand or share my perspective of anything. I can only try to explain what my perspective is, which I think I did about as clearly as I could. So, really it becomes a matter of each individual person deciding whether they can agree with or accept my perspective as valid. I can't make that decision for anyone, obviously. I can only state my views such as they are.

@WarmNyota_SweetAyesha I would definitely say that I saw the sparks flying between Han and Leia even as a kid as early as ANH, and I think in many ways, the sparks never really stop flying between them throughout the OT, which is probably why I would say that I find them the most convincing romance we ever saw on screen in Star Wars. I think some of that is the witty dialogue and romantic tension between them that I think works well for most of the OT, and some of that is Carrie and Harrison doing a great job playing their parts (because those two were really brilliant in the OT and could totally sell me on both their individual character portrayals and their romance).

I suppose this is my long-winded way of saying I think it is totally fine to love Han and Leia as a couple. I certainly do. They are probably my favorite Star Wars movie couple. Especially if I want fluff or witty banter (Anakin/Padme is better if I want tragedy, I suppose). And I think that is an awesome fanfic plot bunny to rewrite the scene in a way that respects Leia but develops the burgeoning romance between Han and Leia. I'd totally read that story if you do write it, so feel free to mention me in the thread if you do end up writing it And this is really why I love in-depth discussions on this site. Because they can spark fanfic plot bunnies...

@christophero30 I would agree that Han doesn't act that way in ROTJ, and I think we could say that might show some character growth on his part. Honestly, really it is only this one scene on the Falcon that I do find problematic. I don't find the depiction of Han and Leia's relationship/romance in ANH, the rest of ESB, or ROTJ problematic. Just this one scene really. So if this were a thread devoted to the larger Han/Leia relationship and romance in the OT, I'd probably be gushing about the witty banter and the romantic tension and the overall evolution of their relationship. But since it is more a thread focusing on that single scene, then I feel that I have to discuss and critique that scene. But I don't think that scene has to define how Han and Leia's overall relationship and romance is perceived if that makes sense. It certainly doesn't define how I see Han and Leia's overall relationship and romance. If it did, I wouldn't like Han and Leia's romance as much as I do, that's for sure. Really one scene in a romance that doesn't work for me isn't that terrible. It won't ruin the story or the romance for me. Especially if the main point of the story isn't even to be a romance (as is the case with Star Wars). I'll just say, "That didn't work for me because..." and mostly move on with my life because I'm chill like that

 

And several of us have agreed with you on the intention of that scene.

I’m just not sure why you are coming at us for pointing out that societal norms have changed—and yes, for the better—to the point where protests (“feeble” or not) written today would be viewed as protests, not the opposite.

I think someone with Leia’s personality, written in 2021, would be far more direct. In 1980, the “tough woman caving to passions” was considered solid writing. It’s not now, which is why Jurassic World and its idea that Claire needed to be “broken down” from her “coldness” by Owen Grady is considered antiquated.

 

Exactly.

 

Just as Rey being able to stop Kylo does not change Kylo’s behavior, Leia being a badass does not recontextualize Han’s behavior as it should be viewed through a modern lens.