[HCSF] The Sifo Dyas debate......why Sifo Dyas is probably Qui Gon Jinn

clue 1: "Master Sifo Dyas was killed almost 10 years ago..." Obi Wan Kenobi

Keep in mind that Qui Gon Jinn was also killed 10 years ago. But that key word....."almost".....is what creates a little bit of confusion. See clue 4.

clue 2: "When my master first contacted you, did he say who the army was for?"-Obi Wan Kenobi

Notice how Obi Wan refers to Sifo Dyas specifically as "MY MASTER" and the way he says it also. Qui Gon Jinn was Obi Wan's main Jedi master.

clue 3: "Never heard of him. I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden..."-Jango Fett

Jango was recruited by Qui Gon's Jedi Master, Count Dooku. No question........

clue 4: "They say master Sifo Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the senate almost 10 years ago. I was under the impression he was killed BEFORE that"-Obi Wan Kenobi

This is the one clue here that has confusing elements to it but is also key to understanding this whole ordeal. First of all, notice that the request was made ALMOST 10 years ago. This means that Qui Gon was dead (and Palpatine Chancellor) before the request was made. Also notice how the request was made towards the senate and with Palpatine Chancellor, he could have very easily made an order behind everyone's backs. There are 2 confusing elements in all this. 1st, and this applies to clue 1 as well, the word "almost" screws a lot of crap up. The request was made "almost" 10 years ago. Sifo Dyas was killed "almost" 10 years ago. This means the order must have been made roughly around the same time as Sifo Dyas' death. Earlier in the movie, Anakin Skywalker tells Obi Wan Kenobi "I haven't seen her in 10 years" If what he said is meant to be taken as 10 literal years (I doubt it is), this means Sifo Dyas' death and the order would have been placed very shortly after the death of Qui Gon and end of Episode 1. The other thing that bothers me is how Obi Wan says "I was under the impression" If Obi Wan knew Sifo Dyas and Qui Gon were one and the same, he wouldn't be under an impression Sifo Dyas was killed. He would know from first hand seeing him die! But again, this may just be small talk as a sort of "I'm pretty damn sure Sifo Dyas did die 10 years ago........... right?" sorta thing.....

clue 5: Count Dooku is Qui Gon Jinn's Jedi Master but also is in league with Sidious

This is the final clue that ultimately leads to Qui Gon Jinn being Sifo Dyas. Now in order to beleive Sifo Dyas and Qui Gon are one and the same, you also have to go with the assumption that Sidious is indeed Palpatine. Ok folks, here's what I say happens........



Qui Gon Jinn dies at the end of The Phantom Menace. Enraged at the loss of his pupil and/or for political reasons or whatever other reasons, Dooku leaves the Jedi Order. Dooku allies himself with the Sith Lord Darth Sidious and assumes the name Darth Tyranus. Darth Sidious reveals to Dooku that he is in fact Palpatine and reveals his plan to take over the galaxy. Dooku, under the name Tyranus, recruits Jango Fett to be the host for a clone army. Dooku can't authorize the creation of an army as an individual......only a governemnt can do that. Dooku can't obviouslly put his name on the order request if he's on the opposite side of the Republic. And Palpatine wouldn't want his name on the order request either because that would be seen as an abuse of powers and would have ruined him before his plan would be complete. So instead of asking the Jedi council for approval (they obviouslly would have said no) Dooku uses the name of his dead apprentice, Sifo Dyas (Qui Gon Jinn), to authorize the creation of the army through the Jedi Council. Clearly the senate had nothing to do with this. The so called "request of the senate" was nothing more than Palpatine/Sidious telling Dooku to find some way to get him an army. Because as we know, the senate isn't even aware this army exists until Palpatine's speech "I will create a grand army of the Republic" To sum it all up, Palpatine made it look like the senate (which he controls) asked the Jedi Order to a

 

You could be right. Ive always thought Sifo Dyas was Darth Maul. He died at the same time Qui-Gon did and was definitely evil. Maybe he was a former member of the Jedi Order that Sidious turned to the darkside.

It will be good to finally find out the answers to these questions.

 

I really hope they settle this and not leave it as "he was just another Jedi". It wouldnt make sense, after all, saying he died 10 years previously puts it directly into The Phantom Menace time frame...yet we never see him. Or do we?

 

There are some good points there indeed, but I'm not sure if Qui-Gon was duplicitous enough to hide something that big from the Jedi Council. Although maybe that's why he declined to join the Council, who knows?

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If Qui-Gon was Sifo-Dyas, then it must be a secret from Obi-Wan, because A: He knows exactly when Qui-Gon died and B: He is one of the central hero characters and we in the audience are supposed to learn things when he learns them. He can't be keeping secrets from us, because that doesn't make sense from a storytelling point of view.



Star Wars is six, two and one
/LM

 

Remember folks that I'm not saying Qui Gon actually placed the order here. I'm saying that Dooku placed the order using Qui Gon Jinn's name after Qui Gon died. Remember what Obi Wan says: "I was under the impression he was killed BEFORE then." So Obi Wan is saying that Sifo Dyas died before the order was even placed.

 

The fact remains, he knows exactly when Qui-Gon died. He wouldn't say "under the impression" if he knew that Sifo-Dyas was Qui-Gon.



Star Wars is a saga
Watch and believe
/LM

 

Hmm, reading your initial post again, Typho... nah.

If Dooku placed the order using an alias, he could have used anyone's name (it's not like the Kaminoans 'know'), so rather that use his padawan's pseudonym, why not just use his padawan's name? IE: why not place the order in the name of Qui-Gon Jinn?

By the time the Jedi Council finds out there's nothing that can be done about it anyways.

Not that that clears matters up any

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But you have to look at the stuff that DOES add up. There is just way too much stuff that makes sense. Like I said, the whole "under the impression" thing was probably just a way of Obi Wan saying "Didn't Sifo Dyas die before that order was placed? I'm pretty sure he died before that cause I watched him die. Unless there's something you're not telling me here fellas" Look at Obi's face and tone as he delives the actual line in the movie.

 

Its a good idea but from the book Labyrinth of Evil, it tells you who it is. (I won't say who)

 

Do we allow Labyrinth of Evil discussion here? Technically they aren't spoilers.

 

^^^ Good point. I'd imagine if it's in LoE, then it's not going to be mentioned in RotS.

Mods, help!

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"If Dooku placed the order using an alias, he could have used anyone's name (it's not like the Kaminoans 'know'), so rather that use his padawan's pseudonym, why not just use his padawan's name? IE: why not place the order in the name of Qui-Gon Jinn? "

Valid question! But who could know the answer to that. True, he could have used probably any dead Jedi's name but Dooku knew Qui Gon personally and as his master, could probably forge documents or orders easier. Why not use the name Qui Gon? Who knows! The point remains that Dooku used a pseudonym for Qui Gon when placing the order. Maybe Sifo Dyas wouldn't be recognized as easily as Qui Gon and raise any red flags. Think about why Obi Wan would switch his name to Ben in later years. Perhaps Qui Gon took on the identity Sifo Dyas during his lifetime for whatever reason.

Also, there is one major clue I'm leaving out of the whole thing.

"Only a Jedi could have erased those files"-Yoda

Now it's obvious the files were erased by the same Jedi who placed the order in order to keep Kamino and the creation of the army a secret. I'm pretty sure this was done by Dooku at Palpatine's request. Keep in mind that Palpatine is the mastermind behind everything and Dooku is carrying out his orders.

Palpatine: "You will get me an army from Kamino. I don't care how you do it, but I want an army in 10 years time. You shall cover up the creation of this army by erasing it's location from the Jedi archives. You will then leave the Jedi Order under "political reasons" and start your own seperatist movement with your own army. In 10 years time, we shall go to war and together we will conquer the galaxy."

Lets say for instance Palpatine says that to Dooku. Erasing the location from the archives, eh. No problem. Ordering an army from Kamino. Well I can't really do that myself cause if my supporters in the confederacy ever find out I ordered an army for the Republic, the gig is up. No one else in the Jedi order would ask the senate for the creation of a clone army. Hmmmm, Qui Gon died only just recently. And he'd probably be considered rash enough by the Jedi Order to do something like this behind their backs. Maybe I'll place the order under his name, Sifo Dyas. The Kaminoans may know that a Jedi named Qui Gon Jinn died recently but I could probably use his pseudonym and get away with it. I've got the request here directly from the senate signed by Palpatine. And it's time to make a phone call...........

 

it's mentioned in LOE! Damn I've been meaning to get that book. Mods help!

 

The only problem I have w/ your theory, besides the previously stated Obi-Wan knows that QGJ died, and the when & where. Is the erasing of the files in the Jedi Library. Assuming that Dooku did order the clones under the orders of Sid. And that he did erase the files under Sid. The only question is how would he have access. By the time Sid recruits him, he has already left the Order. Now if he has left the Order, wouldn't it be suspicious if he was in the library? And how would be able to erase the files if he was gone?

 

Well...let's keep Labyrinth of Evil OUT of the discussion.

Although according to Pablo's recent updates, ROTS doesn't address the Sifo-Dyas mystery....which is interesting, because it sure seemed like they were building it up in AOTC.

Sifo-Dyas was not Maul. Maul was a Sith, through and through.

I don't think Sifo-Dyas was Qui-Gon Jinn. Obi-Wan definitely recognized the name, but not in connection with Qui-Gon, or it would have been a more shocked reaction, IMHO.

To me, the obvious answer from AOTC is either that Count Dooku's Jedi name was Sifo-Dyas, and he ordered the army and erased Kamino from the archives, or else Dooku or Jango Fett killed Sifo-Dyas then used his name to order the army.

That way, the only ones who would know of it are Dooku, Sidious, and Sifo-Dyas, who is conveniently dead. Until Obi-Wan stumbles upon the saberdart mystery.

 

If Obi-Wan had meant to say "Didn't he die before that", then he would've said those words. "I was under the impression" implies that he really doesn't know anything about how, when or where it happened.
And, as I have also stated, Obi-Wan is one of the central hero characters. We in the audience are following his hero's journey and therefore, it wouldn't make sense that he keeps something secret from us.
I'm not arguing that Qui-Gon couldn't possibly be Sifo-Dyas, I'm just saying that if he is, then Obi-Wan obviously doesn't know that. If/when he learns the truth, we will learn it too.

I also believe that ROTS will adress the case of Sifo-Dyas. It's too big not to be mentioned. If I'm wrong... too bad

EDIT: If Pablo speaks the truth, I won't be too upset, because even though AOTC does seem to build something up, it's not really THAT big. The whole clone affair will probably be resolved nicely without any mention of Sifo-Dyas, because really, it's just a name.



Personality is the key to art
/LM

 

Anakin was a Jedi that turned into a sith. I dont see why that couldn't apply to Darth Maul as well.

 

Because it already applies to Count Dooku.

A Jedi, especially a Jedi Master, leaving the Order and actually becoming a Sith is a pretty major thing.

If it happens all the time, then Anakin's turn doesn't have the same impact.

 

The way Im looking at it:

Dyas was a Jedi - turned evil (Maul) - joined Sidious

(Darth Maul dies)


Dooku was a Jedi - turned evil - replaced Maul

(Dooku dies?)


Anakin - turns evil (Darth Vader) - replaces Dooku

(Vader is supposed to die)


Luke - try to turn him evil - replace Vader (ROTJ)


Just an idea.

 

Yeah, this apparently won't be addressed in ROTS because they're just going to let "Labyrinth of Evil" explain it. If you don't want to know before the movie, don't read the book.

I've always thought that people want to make this more of a "conspiracy", and more important than it actually is. It's a minor plot point- an interesting coincidental side note only. The explaination needs to be as simple as possible. We can't muddy things up more than they already have to be.

I think the key to this lies in who Sifo-Dyas was (because no one pulled his name out of a hat)... what could have been his relationship to the Jedi and to Darth Tyranus?

 

I thought it was pretty straight forward myself...
Sifo-Dyas is some Jedi that gets too close to the Sidious truth of things.
Jango Fett off's him (I always took his "Always a pleasure to meet a Jedi" line to mean "I've taken care of Jedi before... that Jedi being Dyas, who's demise seems unsolved given Obi-Wan's comment)
In order to keep anonymous, Dooku takes that name when he orders the army on Kamino.
That's probably super far off.

That's all I thought there was to it. I don't like to read the in-between books. To me (matter of opinion), they're not really gospel. Lucas doesn't sit there and draft the story for them or approve it. It's just a writer theorizing on what happened in the white spaces.

 

I always thought Sifo Dias was Dooku.

Originally, Sifo was a jedi that was killed-perhaps even BY dooku or Sidious-notice how NO one mentions or even seems to be clear on HOW he died.

Dooku, then posing as Sifo Dias to the Kaminoans, in order to protect himself in case the Kaminoans say WHO did it. Who can go after a jedi that is already DEAD if they find out? BUT if DOOKU does it as himself, people will KNOW who to come after. He then hires Jango to be the host, using the name Tyranus, his darkside name. THIS means, that Dooku had ALREADY turned to the darkside WHEN he ordered the clones. So he couldn't have STILL been Qui-Gon's Jedi Master at that time.

Also, notice how the Kaminoans refer to him as MASTER sifo dyas-if it was not the MASTER that did the "ordering", how could they say that?

And WHY would Qui Gon go under a WHOLE other name with the Jedi, one that has nothing to do with who he is?

I don't know-personally I think it was Dooku, all along, under Sidious command.

 

I share DARTH_BELO's opinion.

I think Sifo Dyas was the name of a Jedi Knight who fell in combat for reasons not yet explained. It appears to me that Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda all knew who Sifo Dyas was and never referred to it as a pseudonym for Qui-Gon.

Simply, as other have also said, my opinion is that whoever ordered the Clone Army was not the real Sifo Dyas.

If Darth Maul was a Jedi then surely Gui-Gon would have recognised him at least.

Obi-Wan: What was it?
Gui-Gon: I don't know, but it was well trained in the Jedi arts.

By that he probably just meant he knew how to swing a lightsaber effectively and could use the Force. I'd say he was trained from a young age by Darth Sidious, probably in the same way that he himself was taught by his former master - in secret and without prior Jedi training. I know Dooku was a Jedi Knight prior to becoming Darth Tyrannus but I'd say he was an exception considering the predicament Sidious was in after Maul was killed. He didn't have another 20+ years to train another apprentice from scratch.

 

clue 2: "When my master first contacted you, did he say who the army was for?"-Obi Wan Kenobi

Notice how Obi Wan refers to Sifo Dyas specifically as "MY MASTER" and the way he says it also. Qui Gon Jinn was Obi Wan's main Jedi master.

You've taken that quote out of the context. Remember that Obi-Wan is basically just bluffing his way through that conversation and is trying to get as much information out of the Kaminoan as he can.