Head of the Jedi Council: Yoda or Mace?

If Mace was the head of the council he was a gigantic failure of a leader, and thus shown to be quite incompetent compared to Yoda's strategy.

Yoda devised a strategy that succeeded in the longterm, Mace thought shortterm and paid with his life for it.

It does not matter. Yoda was the leader of the Jedi, as he was intended to be.

Mace defers to Yoda out of respect that is due to rank and experience. Yoda is clearly the wiser of the two, as Mace ends up backasswards on the filthy streets of Coruscant, while Yoda dies peacefully, having engineered the ultimate downfall of the Sith.

So, if Mace is, as I said, de jure leader of the Jedi, Yoda seems to hold the rank of "Jedi Leader Emeritus", and seems indeed to be de facto leader of the Jedi.

 

something posted:

first point, what is a "grandmaster"?

if that title appears in any movie i slept through it apparently.

Yoda is a Jedi Master, a senior, wise and respected one but there is no such thing as a "Grandmaster", that's EU, we have a forum for the EU.

Mace is in charge as much as anyone is in charge of the jedi council.

They rule by concensus it seems to me, but it is Mace giving the orders, PERIOD.

Mace defers to Yoda's wisdom out of respect, and he is smart to do so, but in the end it is up to Mace what they do

Go read the AOTC script, bud. Yoda is referred to as the 'Jedi Grand Master' several times.

 

Yoda didn't need to disagree with Mace, there was no point to. But Mace still isn't proven to be the leading Member. And who said a small speeder can send transmissions, besides the fact that radioing Yoda would have been pointless. He was all the way on Kashyyyk. Mace failed at every turn, and he was arrogant, which got him KILLED.

Yoda knew better, Yoda was quiet, always observing, he ALLOWED Mace to talk smack because it's NOT Yoda's character. Yoda is the wisdom of the entire Order, he knows better than ANY Jedi. Yoda KNEW how to handle things, and what we see in TPM, AOTC, and ROTS prove Yoda is the better Jedi. He was also the one who shot down Mace's suggestion to inform the Senate of the Jedi losing their vision, due to it being clouded.

Did Mace ever shoot down Yoda? No, because he COULDN'T. Yoda was in charge, and they all knew their place, even Mace. So, as before, Mace was ALLOWED to be the voice of the Order, because Yoda doesn't want that job, Yoda's care lies with ONLY the Jedi, and he is the leading Council Member.

These facts of Mace being in charge are loosely based on bad evidence.

 

IMO the head of the Jedi Council is Yoda, although he relies on Mace a lot and there's no rivarly there ... who knows, like some said, maybe he was relying on Mace to take over his seniority spot in the future cause let's face it, Yoda was over 700 years old, he needed a break

Small hole in that theory: in TPM when Yoda knights Obi Wan he says "no" to trainning Anakin, and a bit after, Yoda replies "Agree with you the Council does"... I didnt see Yoda calling Mace to ask him, Yoda just decided on the spot as the Council what was to be done. IMO Yoda has the last word, not Mace.

 

The hell? I didn't post that.

 

i posted that and you are wrong, here's why.

Yoda was still against training Anakin at the end of AotC, when he said "agree with you the council does" he spoke as if he disagreed with the rest of the council.

Mace and the council had the last word and over ruled Yoda.

 

There's no evidence to support that. Mace was against Anakin from the beginning, proved by all three films. Yoda clearly had the last word as he had much respect for Qui-Gon AND Obi-Wan which his final word gave Obi-Wan the ability to train Anakin. Mace had no say in it, because it's Yoda's decision in the end.

 

All you need to do is watch all 6 movies to realize who the TRUE greatest Jedi is/was.

"I forsee you becoming more powerful than any Jedi, even Master Yoda"-Palpatine

"rival Master Yoda as a swordsman..."-Obi Wan

"I've become more powerful than any Jedi...even YOU"-Dooku to Yoda

"Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of US"- Palpatine to Yoda

Sidious obviously recognizes that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi as does Kenobi and Dooku. Does Sidious seem at all concerned when Mace and the posse walk in? Nope he jumps up and tears into them but boy does he try to run from Yoda..."if so powerful you are why leave?"

Yoda doesn't need to bark orders in order to be in charge its just a given that he is THE MAN! Just like in the real world some people command respect just because of who they are and what they have done. I love Yoda's semi smackdown of Mace in AOTC about arrogance "even the older Jedi etc" Yoda is the Dali Lama, the Pope the mack daddy he is numero uno.

 

How about Mace Windu's relationship with Yoda?

I guess they have been in service with each other for a very long time. He's also a student. Yoda is definitely Master, even though Mace is referred to as Master himself. Everyone has a secondary position to Yoda, in some way. We're all under him. We aren't as intuitive, we aren't as strong mentally, and we aren't as strong spiritually. Yoda is incorruptible. He's kind of unfathomable in a lot of ways. But spiritually, Mace and Yoda are kind of in tune. That's why they can talk to each other, and a lot of times almost finish each other's sentences in an interesting kind of way. But Yoda is definitely the stronger and smarter and more spiritual of the two.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/bts/profile/f20020521/indexp3.html

 

My bad DarthBoba , i quoted what i saw in one of ur posts.

Malikail: i think ur wrong. If anyone was against them trainning Anakin from the start was Mace. Yoda overuled when he agreed to let Obi Wan train Anakin. Why did Yoda change his mind? who knows. But the Council had already voiced their opinion that Anakin wasnt to be trained.

 

I wonder how many times Yoda has had to use his tie breaking vote.

 

your father/grandfather analogy is appropriate.

Yoda is far past his prime, he might not even be what we would consider a "full timer" anymore.

If not for the clone wars i doubt we would have ever imagined seeing yoda leave the Council, he'd stay on coruscant.

Yoda is essentially an 88 year old man at the start of AotC, consider that.

His life breaks down to being on a 10 to 1 ratio with the average human life span, he also shows all the signs of being completely geriatric. His walk, demenor and wisdom are all signs of just how old he is, he's reaching the point of becoming infirm.

That is why he is no longer the one calling the shots, Yoda can't count on living much longer and he is not nearly as powerful as he once was. He is nearing the stage where he gets put out to pasture, but he is still valued and contributes.

I have noticed as was noted by others that Mace never orders Yoda, of course he doesn't. It brings us back to the Father/Grandfather annalogy, but that doesn't mean the Grandfather is still running the show, he's steped into the background and advises as need be.

It's appropriate role for him as his life ends and his maturity shows in that he can handle not having to be in charge anymore.

 

How is Yoda not as powerful as he use to be? Look at him in AOTC and ROTS, he's still kicking it. Yoda shows no sign of age or even that he should step down. He's just as powerful as ever. Yoda is THE Jedi. And still better than Mace even by the events of ROTS and beyond.

 

Dooku was in his 80s when he whipped Anakin and Obi-Wan in AOTC, so spare the geriatric complaints...Yoda certainly didn't need his cane when fighting Dooku, nor did he seem to suffer too much from arthritis when fighting Sidious.

 

I don't think you have it right here. Where do we ever hear any evidence that Yoda was stronger in the past? It is Yoda, Dooku and Palpatine who display the greatest force powers. It seems rather that a Jedi, or Sith, becomes stronger in the force with age. Look at how Yoda twirls, and how agile he is when using the force. Nobody comes close to that - not even Anakin or OBW. And as the above poster stated: Dooku kicked OBW and Anakin's ass in AOTC without further difficulties, and he was past 80 - human lifespan.

Yoda is THE most powerful Jedi, as we see in his duel with Sideous. When Mace is on par with Yoda it means he is up there. Nowhere is it stated that Yoda is on par with Mace. It is Mace who is the underdog... I'm not trying to take anything away from Mace here, but it is Yoda who is always referred to as the most powerful Jedi in the PT - not Mace...

 

Mace defers to Yoda out of respect that is due to rank and experience. Yoda is clearly the wiser of the two, as Mace ends up backasswards on the filthy streets of Coruscant, while Yoda dies peacefully, having engineered the ultimate downfall of the Sith.

Mace simply didn't have the benefit of Bail Organa saving his ass.

 

Mace took on 2 Sith, remember - and beat the master. Yoda lost.

 

Mace NEVER battled two Sith. And, if memory serves, we were told not to discuss that. End point, Mace got his a$$ handed to him and died. Yoda survived Sidious and Palpatine even attempted to run from Yoda. Yoda is better in duels, and Yoda is the head of the Council. Simple as that.

 

When did Mace take on two Sith at the same time????

 

Anakin wasn't a Sith till Palps declared him a Sith.

 

2 Sith? Surely I must have missed something.

 

Anakin + Sidious vs. Mace. Not very hard to understand. Mace BEAT Palpatine. That's all there is to it. Yoda cannot say the same. In FACT, it is Yoda who actually SAYS that he has failed. Mace declares victory over Sidious, while Yoda declares defeat. Lucas makes it obvious who can beat who and who can't beat who. I guess some people just turn their heads away and cover their ears when Yoda is RUNNING AWAY from Sidious and saying "Hurry" to Bail in a little girl's voice. Not me, though.

 

I don't think so (in the words of OBW).
Yoda admitted defeat of the Jedi as much as his own defeat. Failed I have refers equally to how he failed the order. That was his greatest failure. Yoda didn't lose per se. Both Yoda and Sideous were thrown back, Yoda was by mere chance, or by the will of the force, landed on a pod without a railing to cling on to. Let's not forget that Yoda DID try to cling on to the pod - clearly not the act of someone trying to run. But Yoda realized that he had to stay alive in order to keep the Jedi alive - and that was a good decision. Yoda thought in the long term.
But as I said, why are we so sure that there really was ONE leader of the Jedi council? And I still ask, where is the evidence that Yoda was stronger in the past? Again, nobody was as agile as Yoda using the force...

 

No.
Unfortunately Rossa83, Malikail DOES HAVE IT RIGHT.
He understands EXACTLY what I was trying to say and he broke it down perfectly.

Yoda is DEFINATELY not "below" Mace in rank, but Yoda is not a "fully" active member of the council anymore.

He's above and beyond ALL OTHER JEDI, so he's in a class all his own.

The "council" consist of powerful jedi masters who are ran by Mace Windu.

Yoda is there because he's......

Well he's YODA.

He's the wisest jedi around and was once the "great warrior" that Luke spoke of in ESB.


It's like if an old World War II vet was on base with soldiers fighting in Desert Storm....the top ranking officer probably wouldnt DARE order the vet around like he would his other soldiers, but the vet just isnt as active as he used to be anymore.

Now granted, this is a "sci-fi" movie so the old decrepit vet still has the "power" to jump up and fight (if necessarry) but dont lose sight of who Yoda is to the council.

He plays the "grandfather" role to Mace's "father" role.