"How can you be on the council, and not be a master?"

Morning all, apologies if this has been raised, feel free to lock if so. I was just curious if anyone else had read this. In the ultimate visual dictionary it states that Ki Adi Mundi is not a master and is the only Jedi Knight on the council.

Now, is this information kept secret from Anakin? As he seems to firmly believe that no other Jedi has ever been on the council and not been a master.

"It's never been done in the history of the Jedi, it's insulting"

Why did'nt Obi-wan inform him of Ki Adi Mundi's status as a knight? This may have releaved some of Anakins dissapointment and releaved some of the tention?

Just a thought. I remember reading ages ago that Ki Adi Mundi was a knight and not a master but could'nt remember the source. But it's now in the visual dictionary for all to see.

Any thoughts? :0)

 

GL changed the idea for Episode III. The EU then had to change with it. Officially Ki Adi Mundi was a Master in TPM, not a Knight.

 

The Visual Dictionary is a mish-mash of movie and EU canon.
The fact that Ki-Adi Mundi was a Council Member without being a Master was established in the EU and adopted as canon until Lucas said otherwise.
In ROTS Lucas did say otherwise.
So, as far as the EU is concerned, Ki-Adi was not a Master in TPM.
As far as the G-level canon is concerned - we now know he was a Master.

 

Right, so Lucas has changed the facts to fit the story. They could of got this right in the Ultimate Visual Dictionary though. I hate when you read on thing that seems to fit the details, then read something later that totally contradicts that. A good example of this is . . .

ESB
Luke "Is the darkside stronger?
Yoda "No, but easier, more seductive, quicker to join you in a fight"

AOTC Commentary (after Shmi's Death)
Lucas "Anakin knows he has to go over to the darkside to become more powerful, because the darkside is stronger"

I remember reading early spoilers that detailed Anakins frustration at not being on the council and that he pointed out Ki Adi Mundi was on the council but was not yet a master, so why was'nt he. Does anyone know if this was simply an early idea that was dropped or was this mentioned in the book or screen play at all?

 

Both the AOTC and ESB comments still work, though.

In Yoda's case, he could be covering for the sake of Luke. What are you going to tell the last hope for the Jedi in the galaxy? "Hell yeah kid, the Dark Side is much stronger and it's easier to use as well! Go for it!" Foolish, that would be. Bite my tongue, I will.

As for the AOTC one, that got debated a ton at the time and basically ended up with either "The Dark Side is stronger in every way" or "The Dark Side is physically stronger, the Light Side is spiritually stronger." In the end, no agreement was reached and as with just about everything it can be read in different ways.

 

Not really how I'd look at it.
Lucas IS the facts - people need to follow him.
EU is given room to play around in, licence to develop unexplored areas of certain characters and situations.
Doesn't mean Lucas won't one day write the truth about a certain character which totally undermines the EU.
Look at the Droids cartoon series.
It was broadly considered canon.
The second we saw that Ani built 3PO in TPM, that entire branch of the canon was wiped away in an instant.

Oh, I thought you meant the TPM VD.
I suppose the Visual Dictionaries lean heavily on EU.
I mean what else can you really say about Ki-Adi as a character without delving into the EU?
It is still right in a way.

Basically, the film comes out, and that is Lucas' story.
Then the EU takes what was in the film and expands upon it.
It doesn't contradict anything, because there is nothing to contradict.
But it has nothing to do with Lucas, and the people who are in charge of continuity and licensing have to tie all of these novels and graphic novels and video games and so on together into one coherant entity that doesn't contradict the films or each other.
It's an unenviable task.

When Lucas comes to write his next script, he is not thinking about SW Republic issue 23, or New Jedi Order Book 2 or whatever - he is thinking about his films and his story.
He pays people to think about all of those other things.

It really is quite simple - if it doesn't contradict what we learn in the films it becomes canon. If it conflicts with other canon EU, then it becomes low-level canon.
But just because it becomes accepted as canon, does not mean it becomes part of the story Lucas is writing - he can and will contradict anything established by EU authors.
Ki-Adi's status became G-level canon, but that did not mean it wasn't subject to change once Lucas contradicted it.

But both statements are true.
The dark side is stronger in that it is a quicker more seductive route to power.
That is what Anakin wants, that is what Anakin believes power to be all about, and that is why Lucas says what he says on the commentary.
Yoda has a totally different POV.
Is the Dark Side stronger?
Ultimately, no - just watch what happens at the end of ROTJ.
It depends on what you view true "strength" to be, true "power" to be.
If the dark side is "stronger" then the resolve to overcome it's seductivness must be equally strong.
"Wars not make one great" - that is where Yoda is coming from.
Besides - Yoda isn't going to say: "Yes. You may as well give up, Luke. There's two of them and one of you - they are going to own you."

I think that was just pure speculation.

 

Yeah, i guess it's one of those dam "From a certain point of view" type things. I hate those ;0)

 

"I am the facts!"
*screams like a banshee and corkscrew-somersaults over his desk*

 

"I told you it would come to this. I was right. Kevin J Anderson taking over."

 

Unexpected this is. And unfortunate.

 

Unfortunate that i know the truth? :0)

I'm not up on EU business so i may be alittle out of my depth here. I've often thought about delving into it, but with all the contradiction that seems to spring up from it i think i'd just cinfuse myself.

Edit.

Can anyone recommend a good EU book that is not to contradictuary or complicated and is a good read?

 

I believe it has been ret-conned so that the TPM VD statement regarding Ki-Adi-Mundi as the only Knight on the Council is still canon. (My facts may be a wee bit off here as I haven't read this arc) After Micah Giett was killed, Ki-Adi-Mundi joined the council as a temporary Council member. Then, shortly after TPM, his position is made permanent and he is granted the title of Jedi Master.

And as for you're "not contracdictory EU book", I don't know of a single book that *does* contradict the films, especially any published within the last 6 years or so.

Shatterpoint is a fantastic book based around Mace Windu and takes place 6 months after AOTC. The Medstar duology (Often described as MASH in space, but not as comedic obviously) is also very interesting though there isn't much action. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous is also one of my favourites, though some people really don't like it. The Republic Commando novel Hard Contact is fantastic too, and you don't need to be famliar with the game to enjoy it.

^^ Can you see I like the Clone Wars period ?

Just stay away from The Approaching Storm - the only Star Wars book I've never been able to finish.

 

The Han Solo Trilogy is very good. Shadows of the Empire too, IIRC.
Don't read the New Jedi Order series unless you're really into EU. It's not as good as some fans will have you believe(I'm trying to finish Balance Point, which is one of the five main books, but it's soooo boring). I would recommend sticking to the EU that takes place between the movies.



EU is good sometimes
/LM

 

That is sound advice, IMO.

 

Cool, but that still makes Anakins statement wrong.

"It's never been done in the history of the Jedi, it's insulting"

Thanks for the other info though.

Does cannon mean total fact or EU? Sorry, i'm not 100% up on the lingo sometimes. :0)

 

Canon does mean a standard is in place - G-Level Canon should be considered total fact.
This is what most people accept as being "the truth".
But there are other "fields" of canon used.

Pablo Hidalgo told us we would have to reconsider what we already assumed about Ki-Adi, implying the EU scenario was now being contradicted by Lucas.
Anakin's line in ROTS is G-level canon - because it was written by Lucas' own hand.

Ki-Adi Mundi's backstory, developed in the EU is demoted to C-Level canon... I'd expect.
It remains loosely canon, because it has been accepted and quoted in multiple sources.
But it is outranked by ROTS, which is as canon as you can get.

The discussion of how the canon fields work came up in another thread and numerous questions were put to Leland Chee - Database Content Administrator, Lucas Licensing on the OS.

Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as canonical & non-canonical? Are there various degrees of "officialness"?
The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else from the EU. There is a secondary "S" continuity classification used for older published materials created when there was less attention to making everything in the EU fit with everything else in the EU. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction. Any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case. - LC

G-level canon has nothing to do with GL checking over anything. It's anything that can be taken from the films or internal notes from him which can come from discussions, early drafts, or comments on GL-approved text.
The G/C/S-level canon stuff is a construct specifically for the Holocron. Non-Holocron users would have no idea what this stuff even means and I would say most of the people who use the Holocron don't use the field, instead looking specifically to the source of the material. Individual entries are not broken down by canon level.
This is how I use it:
- We need a list of characters from the films. I'll do a search of characters by G-canon.
- We need a list of some planets from the films and the EU. I'll do a search for planets sorted by canon to determine which ones are going to recognized by more people.
- Source A contradicts Source B. More likely than not, if Source A is from the films and Source B is from the EU, we'll use Source A. Of course, there can always be exceptions which is why the case-by-case determination is always in effect no matter what the Sources. - LC

Are novelisations of the films considered G-level or C-level material?
In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films. - LC

Are deleted scenes considered G-level?
Yes, unless they conflict with something else seen in the films or if the reasoning behind deleting the scene keeps it from being continuity. - LC

Re: The OS Databank
Databank - The Movies descriptions are G; Expanded Universe descriptions are C. - LC
Before a databank entry is posted, it goes through a continuity check just like any other book or game or product.
One thing to keep in mind. If something gets retco

 

Thats great, thanks a lot for that in death details regarding cannon. I've often wondered what it all meant. Now i know.

Nice one :0)

 

Well, thanks should really go to 2Cleva, he went to the trouble of contacting Chee...

 

http://boards.theforce.net/revenge_of_the_sith/b10331/21652472/p1/?1339

 

Honestly, the Visual Dictionary tends to make things up, I mean you get these long winded back stories about characters who are little more than extras, and some flat out contradictions...

I mean, think of it this way, you have them to thank for the whole 'sith mask face' theory

 

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[color=blue]Question:[/color]

[i]"How can you be on the council and not be a Master?"[/i]

[hr]

[color=blue]Answer:[/color]

Simple... get a Sith Lord to [i]"Appoint You As His Personal Representative..." [/i]

[hr]


[/b]

Ok all dumb jokes aside I think it was perfect the way it all went down.

 

Impossible.

 

from a practical standpoint, Anakin being on the Council is little different than Puerto Rico having a representative to Congress. A non-voting representative. Anakin would speak on behalf of Palpatine's interest, but would not have a vote in deciding anything. Its like an honorary membership, sorta.

The dark side is stronger physically. SO? I look at it this way...The Big Show, Paul Wight, of the WWE is massively strong. Does that make him a better athlete than Lance Armstrong? Nope. He is certainly stronger, but, the dark side wears you out quicker. Athletes can run the 50 Yard dash really fast....but, can they maintain that speed over the course of a mile? Nope. The dark side is a sprinter, the light side is an endurance runner. The dark side is quicker, in the short term, but cannot keep up with the superior conditioning needed by the long distance runners of the light side. In this way, there is no contradiction between the Lucas quote and Yoda's teachings to Luke about it.

 

Cheers, i like your take on it. That the darkside can be stronger, yet also weaker at the same time. Maybe it does make someone physically stronger, or simply become so overwealmed with power that they believe they are stronger . . . when in fact they're not. I believe strength comes from having a stong mind and a strong will, and maybe thats what lucas is telling us here. If you go to the darkside, sure you'll become powerful and strong, but you'll lose touch and control of your emotions and will become a weak willed servent of evil, which in my oppinion would make you weaker . . . which i guess is why Obi-wan wins the duel even though Anakin is more powerful. :0)

 

I think the Council should have told Anakin that he wouldn't be on the Council from the standpoint of him just being Palpatine's rep instead of telling him outright that he wouldn't be a Master. Here's a guy who had just beaten Count Dooku, something probably only Yoda or Mace could have done within the whole Jedi Order. But then again the JC was expecting that Anakin just accept him status on the Council and be done with it.

Obi-Wan makes a valid point about Skywalker being the youngest member ever on the Jedi Council. But still Obi-Wan next lines say something about Palpatine's relationship with Anakin and Palpatine intereference in Jedi matters, which to me, shouldn't have anything to do with Anakin becoming a Master.

From that point on things were unrestful and untrustworthy between Skywalker and the Jedi. Anakin's claim of being on the Council but not being a master was valid. But then again the Jedi Council had the right to make him earn his Jedi Master rank instead of it being given to him. Take also into consideration that there may have been a large number of Jedi Masters in the order who were eligible for appointment on the Jedi Council, and Anakin was a Knight, not a Master. Consider also that since Anakin had been knighted he hadn't taken a padawan learner of his own, due to the Clone Wars, so he never had a chance to really set the wheels in motion as a Jedi Master.