How come Ben didn't know that Leia was "the other" ?

True, Ben never really got to meet her again on the Death Star, but I'm still amazed he didn't know.

 

Maybe we'll get an explantion in Episode 3.

 

I never believed he didn't. All he says is "That boy was our last hope," to which Yoda replies, "No, there is another." I'm thinking that because Leia hadn't received any training, that's why Ben didn't consider her to be able to help...

Obi-Wan knows! "The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

~*~Bria

 

He did. They were betting on Luke to take out Vader and Palpatine. Leia might not be as strong since Midichlorians were probably divided between the twins in order to have one "Choosen One."

 

Obi-Wan was partial to Luke, most likely because he had spent so much time looking out for the "son of Skywalker".

Yoda was more objective, having lived alone for thirty-plus years with no emotional attachment to either of the twins.

 

in ROTJ, ben does say that the other was lukes twin sister. but lets face it, this comment comes well after obiwans death, meaning he could well have been let in on this later on.

based on the OT, he doesnt have to know that luke has a sister, let alone that she is a hope.

i have heard that originally, when lucas planned for a 9 episode saga, the other was lukes long lost sister, not leia. the other idea was that anakin was the other hope. after all, he is the chosen one.

 

i think Ben got a lot of credit even for stuff he didn't know. I think it's a Jedi thing.

 

we never saw ben's face when yoda said the line, he probably did not know leia had force abilities

 

Hopefully it will be explained to us in the upcoming movies.

 

It's actually because Leia is _NOT_ the person Yoda is referring to.

"That boy is our last hope.."

"No, there is another."

Yoda here is referring to _Vader_. Knowing Vader's history and his young life as Anakin, Yoda is suggesting that if Luke fails (which he does) then it's possible that Vader will choose to redeem himself and destroy the Emperor (which he does.)

 

Yoda doesn't believe in the Prophecy. He, like Obi-wan, think Vader's a lost cause. That's why they waited for Luke and put it all on the line.

Obi-wan: "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."

Luke: "I can't kill my father."
Ben: "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope."

Vader: "Obi-wan once thought as you."

Going by this, it looks like they were sure that Luke or, to a lesser degree Leia, were the only hope left in the galaxy.

 

Yoda doesn't believe in the Prophecy. He, like Obi-wan, think Vader's a lost cause. That's why they waited for Luke and put it all on the line.

I don't think we even need to consider whether or not Yoda believes in the lame Prophecy that was added into the mix in TPM. But more importantly, I don't think there's any indication that Yoda believes Vader to be a "lost cause." I agree with you that Obi-wan may believe this, but I just re-read the scripts of the OT, and I don't see anything in there that suggests that Yoda thinks Vader is a lost cause.

I'm saying it's quite the opposite - that Yoda actually believes Vader can still save himself. And that's why he's referring to Vader / Anakin when he talks about "another."

Luke: "I can't kill my father."
Ben: "Then the Emperor has already won. You were our last hope."

Yep - I agree that it's pretty clear that Obi-wan thinks Vader is a lost cause. But not Yoda.

Going by this, it looks like they were sure that Luke or, to a lesser degree Leia, were the only hope left in the galaxy.

Going by that, it only suggests that only Obi-wan thinks Luke is the only hope left in the galaxy.

It makes no sense for Leia to be one of the "last hopes." This saga is about Anakin, not Leia. The reason Yoda mentions this "other" is to drive that point home - that really, this movie is a piece of Vader's story. He's the one who truly becomes the last hope of the galaxy.

There are two problems with thinking that Leia is the other referred to:

1. If Leia _is_ the other, why doesn't Obi-wan know this?

2. It's not Leia that ends up saving the day - it's Vader.

There are several good reasons to think that _Vader_ is indeed the other referred to:

1. It explains why Obi-wan isn't aware of the "other" - he thinks that Vader is a lost cause.

2. It's Vader that ends up saving the day, since Luke _does_ fail - and thus, what Yoda suggested, comes to pass.

3. Think about the scene itself - when Yoda says, "There is another" if you have the letterbox version of the film, there is a very distinct lighting change - as Yoda says this, there is a very deep red color on his face, which then turns white as the scene ends. This lighting is supposed to be the glare from Luke's X-wing, but I think it serves a dual purpose of hinting at Vader's redeption (red > white | dark side > light side.)

Finally, think about the words Yoda uses. Obi-wan says, "That boy is our last _HOPE_." to which Yoda replies, "No, there is another [HOPE]." There's another HOPE. Not necessarily another person. If Luke fails (which he does) then the only HOPE is for Vader to come through.

When you consider that this whole saga is really the story of Vader / Anakin, it only makes sense that the "other" hope referred to is indeed Vader.

Remember, Yoda and Obi-wan aren't just talking about someone with the Force. Yeah, Luke tells Leia that she is strong in the Force. So what? That doesn't make her the "other." It would be silly to have the line about "another" in there if there's no payoff. The only way that line pays off is if the "other" is Vader.

 

But there was no indication that Yoda believed that "Vader" was the other hope because lets not forget he already knows what happened the last time he had to rely on Anakin.........that blind faith costs him the lives of all his fellow jedi and the bad shape the universe is in now which is why Yoda, like Obi-wan, no longer believes that Anakin can fulfill the prophecy seeing as how Ani has turned to the darkside and is now a Sith lord and that he now relies on Luke to finish the job his father failed to do.

Also, ROTJ already confirmed who the "other" was that Yoda spoke of and Obi-wan told it to the audience and if that wasn't enough, Luke made it clear to everyone that Leia was the other hope.

And to answer your 2 questions:

1. Obi-wan didn't know that Leia was Luke's sister and that she was the other hope until Yoda told him.

2. While Vader may have eventually save the day, Leia still played a part in his redemption when Vader discovered that he had another child and that Leia was that child.

Realising that his late wife was still alive to give birth to their children, he finally has to confidence he needed to do the job he failed to do long ago while he was still known as Anakin Skywalker.

 

That is one of the many questions we fans have been asking ourselves since the release of Star Wars. Hopefully the next two movies will answer all of our questions.

 

Yoda: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

Luke: "Vader."

I think that means Yoda thinks Anakin is a lost cause. Before Anakin's redemption, no other Jedi has come back or survived coming back from the dark side.

 

Well, perhaps Ben did know that Leia was the other. But, he just figured that she was the VERY last resort. Ben also probably figured that Leia would be in a very difficult position, having to lead the Rebel forces, and trying to personally defeat her father, Vader. When Luke goes off to Bespin, Ben thinks he's going to be killed, and the galaxy doomed forever.

 

But there was no indication that Yoda believed that "Vader" was the other hope because lets not forget he already knows what happened the last time he had to rely on Anakin...

I don't think this argument holds, because the story in the OT was laid down before the story of the PT, and infact you're speculating on events that we haven't even been officially told about yet.

And even if Anakin _does_ let everyone down in Episode 2, perhaps Yoda believes now in the OT that he _will_ eventually complete his destiny and save the galaxy.

I just don't think that someone as old and wise as Yoda is just going to summarily dismiss Anakin / Vader from saving the day... that's the short-sighted view, something someone 900 years old probably wouldn't have.

Yoda, like Obi-wan, no longer believes that Anakin can fulfill the prophecy seeing as how Ani has turned to the darkside and is now a Sith lord and that he now relies on Luke to finish the job his father failed to do.

But see, that is what I was saying earlier. These movies, ultimately, are about Anakin, not Luke. So really, it makes perfect sense that ultimately Yoda is referring to Anakin / Vader as the last hope - since the movies are _HIS_ saga. If they really were relying on Luke to finish the job, then the saga wouldn't be so much about Anakin, which is what GL says it is.

Also, ROTJ already confirmed who the "other" was that Yoda spoke of and Obi-wan told it to the audience and if that wasn't enough, Luke made it clear to everyone that Leia was the other hope.

I don't think you're paying close enough attention to what really happens. Yoda speaks of "another hope" in TESB. But in ROTJ he _ALSO_ mentions, just as he dies, "There is another Skywalker."

What Obi-wan told to the audience was that this "other Skywalker" is Leia. He does _NOT_ identify what this "other hope" is because he doesn't know - he thinks that "that boy is our last hope."

This way, the inconsistency of Ben not knowing about Leia is nullified. When Ben says, "That boy is our last hope" he's not thinking about Leia - he knows that Leia is Luke's sister, but doesn't consider her a "hope" to save the galaxy.

Again - yes, Luke makes it clear that he _has a sister_ - this is the "other Skywalker" but the "hope" that Yoda refers to is never specifically identified. Two separate things.

1. Obi-wan didn't know that Leia was Luke's sister and that she was the other hope until Yoda told him.

Uhh - when does Yoda tell Obi-wan that Leia is Luke's brother? I didn't see that anywhere in the movies. I think it's _very_ clear that Obi-wan _already knows_ that Leia is Luke's brother - hell, in the script of ROTJ there is a place where Ben _tells_ Luke how he, in his younger days, helped to hide Leia. Go look.

2. While Vader may have eventually save the day, Leia still played a part in his redemption when Vader discovered that he had another child and that Leia was that child.

No way. When Vader finds out Luke has a twin sister, his _immediate response_ is "So, you have a twin sister! If you cannot be turned, then perhaps she will!" [WHACK!]

No way that the knowledge of Leia caused Vader to save the day. It's very clear from the way the scene is constructed and filmed, what finally turns Vader from the dark side and causes him to toss the Emp is when Luke is writhing in agony on the floor and begging his father to save him. This appeal from someone weak and meaningful to him finally breaks through and he completes his destiny. Leia is maybe somewhat important, but by no means integral to this scene.

-----------

Yoda: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice."

Luke: "Vader."

I think that means Yoda thinks Anakin is a lost cause. Before Anakin's redemption, no other Jedi has come back or survived coming back from the dark side.

I don't think it means that Yoda thinks Anakin is a lost cause at all. He says, "foreve

 

To address the original question; I think that there is no conclusive evidence either way in ANH or ESB on whether Ben knew about Leia. The only line with a possible clue is "That boy was our last hope." It is interesting how the thread evolved from the original question to the definition of "hope" as mentioned by Ben and Yoda. So does "hope" mean (1)that Luke can defeat Vader and the Emperor or does it mean (2) that Anakin can be redeemed and defeat the Emperor? I am desperately hoping that this question is addressed in Ep3. With each change that GL puts into SW, there is a greater chance that some inconsistencies will exsist. Hopefully, this will not be one of them. If (1), then it is possible for Ben to know about Leia. If (2), then it is likely that Ben does not know about her.

My feeling is that the only one who is powerful enough (in the force) to defeat the Emperor is Anakin/Vader (who is the most power character simply because he was conceived by the midies). Therefore I think "hope" refers to Anakin's redemption.

Also to support this conclusion is GL's quote; The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film. - Extract from The Annotated Screenpllays (Laurent Bouzerou), 1997

Darth Sinister brought up one of Yoda's quotes "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will as it did Obi-wan's apprentice." I also interpret this a meaning that once one turns to the dark side, no redemption is possible. This does conflict with the above conclusion. I think that maybe Yoda will see something in Anakin in Ep3 that could make him think Anakin is an exception. (Hint : I think this will have to do with Anakin's love for Padme)

Now if "hope" means Vader's redemption, then the only source that can create the conflict in Vader that would cause the redemption is Luke and Leia. Therefore, when Yoda tells Ben "No, there is another.", I think he is referring to Leia as another source that could create the conflict in Vader.

Unfortunately, these arguments rely too much on Ep3 speculation. As I said, hopefully Ep3 will clearly answer these questions.

 

Consider that he said that he was against Anakin's training after being out voted. Yoda didn't think Anakin was capable of being trained and not turning. From what we know, Yoda has trained Jedi for a long time. None of the canon Jedi have come back from the dark side. There is more to this arguement but it contains heavy spoilers. Unless you read them, I can't give a valid response.

 

"I don't think this argument holds, because the story in the OT was laid down before the PT, and in fact your speculating on events that we haven't been officially told yet."

This isn't speculation because the OT already lets us know what happened to the Jedi and who was responsible for their deaths and plus if Yoda doesn't believe that Vader was a lost cause, then why would he always tell Luke to conquer him? Why did he tell him that going after Vader would make him a Jedi? Not to mention why would he as well as Obi-wan would be desperate to train Luke and have him destroy Vader and the Emperor? and why didn't they show Yoda having second thoughts about Vader.

So you see since Yoda is so hellbent on having Vader be destroyed, that is more than enough to prove that Yoda believes that Vader is a lost cause.

"It makes prefect sense that ultimately Yoda is referring to Anakin/Vader as the LAST hope- since the movies are HIS saga."

Huh? do you actually believe that Yoda was referring to Anakin/Vader as the other Skywalker? NO and did he still have faith that Anakin can still fulfill the prophecy? NO because Anakin has already turned to the darkside and Yoda can't rely on him anymore because of that which is why he's referring to Leia being the other hope.

"I don't think you're paying close attention to what really happens."

Yes I was paying close attention to what really happens, its just that your not watching the same SW movies that I have. All 9,998 jedi have been destroyed and Vader is behind their deaths which Yoda and Obi-wan knows. Yoda can't possibly rely on Anakin anymore because of this which is why he considered Leia over him as the other hope and that he now relies on his son Luke to do the job.

"He does_NOT_ identify what the "other hope" is because he doesn't know-he thinks that "that boy is our last hope"."

He doesn't think of this- he believes that this boy is the last hope because after what Vader did to him, he is certain that Anakin/Vader is a lost cause and Yoda knows this too-well he knows that there is another hope in case Luke either died or went to the darkside.

"The "hope" that Yoda refers to is never specifically identified."

It is only until ROTJ that the "hope" Yoda referred to hasn't been specifically identified and NO he wasn't referring to Vader because he doesn't trust him anymore.

"When does Yoda tell Obi-wan that Leia is Luke's sister?"

Right after Luke takes off and even if it wasn't shown on-screen, Lucas still had in mind that Leia was Luke's sister and the "other hope" for the Jedi and the universe.

"No way that the knowledge of Leia caused Vader to save the day."

No but it did cause his redemption because the fact that he now knows that he has another child, he starts to have a change of heart and he knew that if the Emperor killed Luke that he would go after Leia too so he didn't take any chances and decided to save Luke by killing the Emperor which finally brought balance to the force.

Yoda and Obi-wan didn't believe that he can but Luke did and it paid off.

 

Lord Sidious:

It is interesting how the thread evolved from the original question to the definition of "hope" as mentioned by Ben and Yoda.

This is a good observation, and I agree totally. Note that it's only Ben that says, "That boy is our last hope." Yoda believes that there are two "hopes" - perhaps Luke himself can defeat the Emperor, or perhaps Anakin / Vader will redeem himself and defeat the Emperor.

So when Yoda replies, "No - there is another [hope]." He's _most definitely_ referring to Anakin / Vader at this point. There's no way here he could possibly be referring to Leia.

Ben _knows_ about Leia. He always has. But he _doesn't_ believe that Anakin / Vader can redeem himself, and that's why he says "that boy is our last hope."

However - later, in ROTJ, Yoda tells Luke as he dies, "There is another... Sky... Skywalker." Here, I believe, he could be referring to either Leia, or Anakin / Vader.

 

PMT99:

if Yoda doesn't believe that Vader was a lost cause, then why would he always tell Luke to conquer him?

Check the movies again. When does Yoda tell Luke he must "conquer" Vader? Yoda says, "You must _confront_ Vader." Big difference. He _never_ tells Luke that he must conquer or destroy Vader. Never.

(Ben, however, _does_ tell Luke to destroy Vader - this makes sense since Ben really believes him to be a lost cause. But Yoda does not.)

Why did he tell him that going after Vader would make him a Jedi?

_Confronting_ Vader will make him a Jedi. It was Luke's "final" test before becoming a Jedi. He would have failed the test if he had indeed destroyed Vader - he'd become an agent of evil, gone to the Dark Side if he had killed his own father. Only Yoda is wise enough to tell him to confront Vader rather than destroy him as Ben tells him to do.

Not to mention why would he as well as Obi-wan would be desperate to train Luke and have him destroy Vader and the Emperor?

I just think this is a shallow analysis of the motives here. I mean, think about it - if Luke destroyed Vader, as you suggest that Yoda and Obi-wan wanted, then the whole "prophecy" would be ruined. This story is about _Anakin / Vader_. It's about his redemption, not his death at a hands of his son.

So you see since Yoda is so hellbent on having Vader be destroyed

Yoda is most definitely NOT hellbent on having Vader destroyed. He _never_ suggests this.

that is more than enough to prove that Yoda believes that Vader is a lost cause.

No. As much as I dislike it, think about TPM. Obi-wan is younger and more rebellious. Yoda is wise and old - 900 years old. He's able to put aside events that happen to see the "big picture" (Anakin fulfilling the prophecy) while Obi-wan cannot.

Huh? do you actually believe that Yoda was referring to Anakin/Vader as the other Skywalker?

I think it's pretty obvious that Yoda is referring to Anakin / Vader when he says "there is another [hope]."

When he says, "There is another Skywalker" then THERE it's possible he's referring to Leia, or Anakin / Vader.

did he still have faith that Anakin can still fulfill the prophecy? NO

Illustrate to me how Yoda doesn't have faith that Anakin can still fulfill the prophecy. There's no evidence to support your conclusion of "no." He really doesn't mention the prophecy at all.

Yes I was paying close attention to what really happens, its just that your not watching the same SW movies that I have. All 9,998

Huh? Is there some other set of Star Wars movies where they say that there are precisely 10,000 Jedis running around? I don't remember this from the movies. Maybe you _are_ watching a different set of movies? Just kidding.

Yoda can't possibly rely on Anakin anymore because of this which is why he considered Leia over him as the other hope and that he now relies on his son Luke to do the job.

But... this just doesn't make SENSE. Leia is in NO position to save the galaxy. The movies aren't even ABOUT her. They're about _Anakin / Vader_, and to a lesser degree, Luke. If these movies are ultimately about Vader's redemption, then why in the world would Yoda and Ben start betting on Leia? Then the whole point of the movies would be lost.

after what Vader did to him, he is certain that Anakin/Vader is a lost cause and Yoda knows this too-well he knows that there is another hope in case Luke either died or went to the darkside.

I agree that Obi-wan considers Vader / Anakin a lost cause (and I think we'll see evidence of why in the next movies) but there's no indication so far that Yoda believes Vader / Anakin to be a lost cause.

It is only until ROTJ that the "hope" Yoda referred to hasn't been specifically identified

I disagree. The "hope" is _NEVER_ specifically identified. The "another Skywalker" _IS_ identified as Leia, but the other "hope" is not. Two separate things.

"When does Yoda tell Obi-wan that Leia

 

In this thread Tombs of the Sith: From Revenge of the Jedi rough draft on Ep3 speculation, the rough draft of "Revenge of the Jedi" had some interesting dialog bewteen Luke and Yoda (copied below) that might clear some of this up. WARNING The link does go to the Ep2 and 3 SA forum. So far in the first 10 posts, there are no Ep2 spoilers, only Ep3 speculation. However, proceed at your own risk beyond that if you are not spoiled.

68. INT. HOLD - SHUTTLE

Luke sits in a small metallic cell inside the hold of the shuttle. His head is in his hands.

LUKE
Ben, help me?come to me, please Ben. I'm not strong enough to face my father. Help me to resist the Dark Side of the Force. Ben, Ben, please?

Luke looks up to see a shimmering, translucent image of Yoda standing in the tiny cell with him.

LUKE
Yoda?

YODA
Ben can no longer help you. His power to stay in the netherworld has been spent. He will soon be one with the Force. His identity lost forever.

LUKE
No, help him. Bring him back?

YODA
Only you can draw him back to the material world. Stop your anger.

LUKE
How, I can't?

YODA
You can't, because that is what you think. Have you learned nothing?

LUKE
Master, I?

YODA
You cannot help Obi-Wan! You cannot face your father! You cannot resist the Dark Side! The Emperor has already won.

LUKE
I'm sorry, I?

YODA
Sorry will not save you?or Obi-Wan?or your father destroy.

LUKE
I have no will to destroy my father?there must be some good in him, I can feel it.

YODA
Destroy you he will, as he destroyed himself?this you must face?

LUKE
I am not strong enough, I will fail.

YODA
If that is the way you feel?then I must turn to another for help.

LUKE
Another? Who?

YODA
The Force runs strong in the Skywalker line. If you will not destroy your father, there is only one other left who can?your sister.

LUKE
Sister!!! I don't have a sister.

YODA
Strong with the Force is she; but untrained.

LUKE
My sister?

YODA
Taken to Alderaan by your mother, was she. Safer it was to keep you apart.

LUKE
Leia?!?

YODA
Your twin sister? If you fail to destroy your father, our only hope is she.

Luke is stunned by this bit of information, and quickly becomes lost in thought.

If the ideas in this draft hold true, then Yoda definitely thought Leia was the other hope to destroy Vader and the Emperor. Apparently Yoda did foresee that a Skywalker could defeat the Emperor, but he did not believe that Anakin could be redeemed. Of coarse in the end, it was actually Anakin that did destroyed the Emperor. So Yoda was correct in that a Skywalker would defeat the Emperor, but he did not think Anakin would be that Skywalker.

Unfortunately, this does not answer the original question of the thread. (Ahhhhh)

 

Lord Sidious:

From Revenge of the Jedi rough draft on Ep3 speculation, the rough draft of "Revenge of the Jedi" had some interesting dialog bewteen Luke and Yoda (copied below) that might clear some of this up.

Interesting. And if this script is indeed legit, then it does suggest that Lucas was considering Leia to be the "other hope." (As well as the "another Skywalker.")

But honestly, I doubt the legitimacy of this "draft." I don't want to go off on a tangent about this, but:

1. There's really no way to "prove" that this script was indeed written by GL. It is _very_ different from what actually happens in ROTJ.

2. It doesn't "sound" like an authentic script. I went and read through the entire script, and if you look at some of Vader's lines, there's no WAY he would be saying some of this stuff. I mean, can you picture JEJ's voice saying,

"Or greatly feared. The disgusting little bureaucrat is attempting to lay a trap for me."

or,

"Don't you toy with me."

or,

"He's been seen at the palace?and that's where I'm going!"

Also, I'm not trying to nitpick, but I have to point it out : it ain't in the movies or the final script, so it ain't canon. Thus, I personally can't accept it as legitimate information.

If the ideas in this draft hold true, then Yoda definitely thought Leia was the other hope to destroy Vader and the Emperor.

That's a logical conclusion, I agree, but as it isn't canon....

But more importantly, despite this draft, I don't believe that Lucas ever intended Vader to be destroyed by Luke, or Leia. Again, these movies are _about Vader's fall and subsequent redemption_. I think this is very important to remember.

If that "other hope" is anyone other than Vader, then the story is no longer about Vader.

Unfortunately, this does not answer the original question of the thread. (Ahhhhh)

Hee hee. I think it still needs to be clarified that there are two "other"s - the "other" hope, and the "other" Skywalker that Yoda refers to. I think the other hope is Vader / Ani, and the other Skywalker is Leia. If I'm right, then it explains why Ben didn't know about the "other hope" - which was the original question.

 

Had to include this as well - I don't think we can really depend on that script draft to point us in either direction. Get this quote from towards the end of the draft:

-

EMPEROR

Obi-Wan foresaw my destruction at your hands, young Skywalker, but it seems his vision was clouded?Perhaps there is still another Skywalker. Why can I not see, could the netherworld have influenced my perception? Another Skywalker?your father!

The Emperor turns around to see Lord Vader flying at him. The lightning bolts around Luke disappear as Vader hits the Emperor, knocking them both into the fiery lake of lava.

-

So, this portion of the script actually suggests that the "other" hope, _AND_ the "other" Skywalker was Anakin / Vader all along.

Which contradicts the earlier chunk of the script that was posted. So IMHO as that script suggests both possibilities, and ain't canon, let's ignore it.

Interesting stuff.