How could Obi-wan not realize that the clones were the enemy?

Yah, it just seems that Kenobi could put 2 and 2 together.

"I was recruited by ... Tyranus"

Fett then leads Kenobi to Geonosis.

Who's running the show on Geonosis?

Dooku.

So logically, Dooku = Tyranus. What kind of people go by 2 names? OH YEAH, The Sith.

The Dark Side clouds everything, but it shouldn't make Obi Wan think like a 2nd Grader.

 

the only excuse for the way he was thinking is that he can't get it into his head that Dooku doesn't act like the Jedi master Kenobi should be familiar with.

Unfortunately there is evidence that Dooku is behind Padme's assisnation attempts also presented in front of Obi-Wan.

I won't say GL didn't think this through, i believe he did, but i also believe he so badly over edited this film that in the end it makes Kenobi look like an idiot for not figuring this out.

 

Exactly.

"I was under the impression ..."

Well, if you're going to keep listening to Yoda and Mace, then you're a fool. Yoda and Mace can't see ANYTHING. Makes me wonder why they're on the council.

 

Well, if you're going to keep listening to Yoda and Mace, then you're a fool. Yoda and Mace can't see ANYTHING. Makes me wonder why they're on the council.

Makes you realize why Qui Gon didn't want to be in the Council!


But if you really think about it, if Yoda and Mace didn't realize Palpatine was a Sith, how could they know the Clones were going to be the bad guys? Palpatine checked it out himself. "Master Yoda do you really think it would come to War?". Yoda: The Darkside clouds everything....". Palpatine in his head "why these chums are nicely falling to my plate".

 

No, he knows Nute Gunray is behind the plot. He knows that Dooku knows Jango Fett and arranged a meeting between the two. Doesn't mean that he plotted out the assassination attempt. Just that he was meeting Nute's terms.

The Jedi believe that the Sith were only involved with the Confederacy. They don't think that the Sith had a hand in the creation of the Clone Army. The Jedi were convinced that Sifo-Dyas placed the order and that the Sith had no knowledge of it.

Uh, what automatically makes you think that Dooku is Tyranus? I mean, seriously. Isn't it possible that two separate people were involved? Yes, it is. Follow along for a second. What proof do you have that Dooku is Tyranus? Not knowing about the meeting Coruscant is there anything remotely linking them together? No. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch. Zip.

Like Qui-gon was your traditional Jedi Master? In fact, they acted the same. Dooku even said that they thought alike. Hell, he's convinced that if Qui-gon were alive, he would've joined him in this enterprise. There is also the fact that he is a political idealist. Something very rare amongest Jedi. When we first see him, he doesn't act like a Sith. Kinda hard to think that he is one.

Evidence? What evidence?

So what would make you automatically think that two separate people are one in the same?

 

Kenobi over hears Nute and Dooku discussing Nute not signing the treaty till he has her head on his dead if i'm not mistaken, if i am mistaken correct me.

he makes the conclusion that Viceroy Gunray is behind the assisnation plots for some odd reason seems to exclude Dooku even though he reassures him that 'he's a man of his word'.

At this point Dooku has promised to Kill Padme, it's that simple, he has promised her dead, not the act of a jedi.

he didn't just arrange a meeting between them, Dooku is actively involved in plotting her MURDER.

this doesn't make dooku tyranus, but the sudden appearance of the template for the clone army has to send up a red flag.

how can you honestly tell me that in the entire GFFA it's just a coincidence that the same guy who is being cloned to make an army was hired by gunray to be an assasin and kill Padme, and then he runs to the seperatists?

No matter who this Tyranus is he's obviously got something to do with Gunray and the seperatists, the jedi would not be fools to guess that he is the Sith Lord behind it all, but somehow they don't get that.

They are made to look like blind fools who can't think and Kenobi, probably the greatest of them gets the job of King Fool.

 

Malikail posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately there is evidence that Dooku is behind Padme's assisnation attempts also presented in front of Obi-Wan.
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Evidence? What evidence?


Well Obi-Wan hears Nute ask Dooku if Padme is dead yet and saying that he will not sign a treaty until she is and Dooku assures Nute that he will hold up his end of the bargin.

That says quite clearly that Jango is working for Dooku, not Nute.
If Dooku had only introduced Nute and Jango and Nute had given the order to kill Padme directly to Jango there would be no reason for Nute to ask Dooku about it, he would talk to Jango.
No, the scenario is instead this; Dooku wants Nute's help and support with the separatists and Nute is interested but will only agree if Dooku kills Padme. Dooku agrees and then orders Jango to do the job.
Obi-Wan heard enough and knows enough to get this picture, so he knows that Jango does work for Dooku directly.

"The Jedi believe that the Sith were only involved with the Confederacy. They don't think that the Sith had a hand in the creation of the Clone Army. The Jedi were convinced that Sifo-Dyas placed the order and that the Sith had no knowledge of it. "

Well Obi-Wan says that he thinks that Sifo-Dyas was dead before the clones were ordered and Yoda and Mace do not dissagre with that, which clearly suggests that Yoda and Mace knew that Sifo-Dyas could not have ordered this army as he was already dead.

So what do they know, a clone army was ordered by someone posing as a dead jedi and this someone then deletes the Kamino system from the jedi records. This could only have been done by a jedi and since Sifo-Dyas was dead, who then? If they discount all jedi currently in the order then Dooku would be a prime suspect. He was in the order at one time, although the film does not clearly say when he left, Mace and Yoda would know if he was in the order at the time when the clones were ordered and Kamino was deleted.

Add to the fact that Jango runs to Dooku at the first sign of trouble and the jedi have plenty of reason to suspect that something is not right with the clones.

Regards
Nordom

 

Force preserve us!

The idea that Dooku isn't Tyranus is the silliest thing I've heard on these boards yet.

Dooku's Sith name is Darth Tyranus. He's referred to as such, by Sidious, at the end of AOTC. It's just that Obi-Wan doesn't know Dooku's Sith name.

(I must assume you hate AOTC so much that it would cause you pain to actually WATCH it.)

 

Had Obi-Wan not gotten himself abducted on Geonosis, things may have been different. When Obi-Wan transmitted the message and the Jedi Council saw him being attacked, they obviously had some reason to believe that something big was going down. For things like the Naboo Incident, where a SITH LORD may be present, they sent two Jedi. For this Geonosis incident, they send HUNDREDS. They went expecting a fight.

Yoda shows up at Kamino and senses no deception in the Kaminoans or in the clones. The first wave of troops is ready. He just sent 200+ Jedi to the "Droid foundries on Geonosis". The Seperatists are there. They are known to always bring along an entourage of droids. Either leave notable Jedi like Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Obi-Wan Kenobi to die, or try the clones out. The Jedi on Geonosis can be treated as dead by this point. What is the worst that the clones will do? Kill them again?

So they get to Geonosis and.....The clones are very helpful. They save the lives of several important Jedi and the Senator that this whole thing started with. They prove themselves by continuing to fight loyally beside the Jedi for MANY YEARS. No matter WHAT Obi-Wan could have suspected, he would look like a fool to say "Those clones that saved my life....they are on the other side and will kill us.".

Carnage

 

Carnage, you will get no argument from me.

you decribe what i have to conclude happened, they were at first desperate when Yoda and the clones invade Geonosis and start the clone wars and over time they come to trust the clones.

I am just pointing out that it should have seemed highly suspicious to the Jedi, they should have realized something isn't right here and there really should have been mention of some form of investigation.

I have not said that, except in hind sight, they should not have used the clone army.

Just because the Kaminoans aren't deceiving Yoda doesn't mean this army can be trusted, the Kaminoans also aren't forthcomming with the jedi about their training and conditioning at least not in detail.

i imagine over the next 20 years Kenobi had to say to himself many times that they should have looked more cloesly into these critical and rather too fast events.

It's not a plot hole, but it does seem to me that the Jedi just are taking things selectively at face value, which is odd.

the same Jedi council leaders who suggest things like "i doubt the sith could have returned without us knowing about it", don't want to look deeper into what seems to me to be at least more than a casual coincidence.

They should not have automatically jumped to the conclusion that Dooku was Darth Sidious, or at the time they probably still called him "the sith lord" or "sith master", nor should they have assumed he was Tyrannus.

However it was obvious that there was a relationship between "the sith master", Dooku obviously a sith after the battle of Geonosis, Jengo the assasin hired to kill padme and clone army template, and the clone army itself.

At this point it's easy to say, but if i were on that council i would not have had my jedi knights leading this army into battle until i could determine the nature of that relationship.

It is a great risk to take, if the republic uses the army that is up to the senate and chancellor but the Jedi are not soldiers and their assistance can't be compelled.

 

you've raised some good points.

i suppose the jedi expected things would be revealed through the force, yet it was i think the force that conspired against them.

I guess they just didn't realize how diminished their insight and forsight had become, still it is hard to accept that they didn't realize there is a relationship there.

i wasn't advocating the actual events should be different, the use of the clones makes sense, the continued use and trust after years in battle makes sense, it's the lack of questions in the begining that bothers me.

we are not given the impression Yoda really investigates because he arrives so fast and it had to take time, logistically to mobilize all those troops.

i just wish they had stoped to ask questions at some point, similar to the ones at the end of TPM.

 

I agree. The Jedi should not have put their full trust in the clones at any point in time, especially considering that they were leary of Palpatine. This is something that should have had some sort of dialogue to make clear. "We have no choice, but to fight alongside the clones. They are the galaxy's only hope." Something of that nature.

 

You are correct.

He walked out of the Jedi Order and renounced them.

Because people like this, like Jango, are known as mercenaries. Han Solo was one. He performed illegal smuggling and held no alligence to the Empire or the Alliance. It isn't until his relationship with Luke and Leia that he starts to change his mind and throw in with the Alliance. Jango, like Han, does what he does for money. Murder, collecting bounties, being a clone template. It doesn't matter so long as he gets well paid. He agreed to the terms of the Kaminoans and the Sith, provided he got a kid out of it. He agreed to kill Padme, because he was going to be paid for it.

But this is what Obi-wan walks away with.

OBI-WAN: "Anakin, my long range transmitter has been knocked out. Retransmit this message to Coruscant. I have tracked the bounty hunter Jango Fett to the droid foundries on Geonosis. The Trade Federation is to take taking delivery of a droid army here and it is clear that Viceroy Gunray....is behind the assassination attempts on Senator Amidala."

He doesn't accuse Dooku of being involved. He sees him as a middle man who put them together, as a means of getting Nute in his pocket. This is what Obi-wan comes to conclude. He has no reason to think that it was Dooku's plot from the beginning.

 

"But this is what Obi-wan walks away with.

OBI-WAN: "Anakin, my long range transmitter has been knocked out. Retransmit this message to Coruscant. I have tracked the bounty hunter Jango Fett to the droid foundries on Geonosis. The Trade Federation is to take taking delivery of a droid army here and it is clear that Viceroy Gunray....is behind the assassination attempts on Senator Amidala."

He doesn't accuse Dooku of being involved. He sees him as a middle man who put them together, as a means of getting Nute in his pocket. This is what Obi-wan comes to conclude. He has no reason to think that it was Dooku's plot from the beginning. "

If Obi-Wan really thinks that Dooku is not involded then he is stupid.
Nute asks Dooku if Padme is dead and then he says that he will not sign any treaty until she is. Dooku responds by saying that he is a man of his word. What conclusion can be drawn from this? Since Nute asks Dooku and not Jango about Padme and Dookus promise of his word we can conclude that Nute told Dooku about the terms for his help, kill Padme, and Dooku agreed. Dooku later then got Jango to do the job.
Obi-Wan should have been able to conclude that Jango works for Dooku and it would have been Dooku that gave him the order to kill Padme but the reason for this was Nute.
So Nute is behind the assassination attempt in so far as that he is the one who wants Padme dead and he told Dooku this and Dooku then gets Jango to do the job.

Nothing about this suggest that Jango works directly for Nute and that all that Dooku did was to put them together or simply suggest Jangos name. Jango works for Dooku and Dooku is preparing for war and Jango would know this and he would also know about the clone army so it is very possible that he told Dooku ?Hey you know there is a really big clone army being made in kamino?. Loyalty you say? Well he had no qualms getting out of Kamino and burn his bridges there and he has gotten what he wanted from Kamino, money and a son. So since he is now working for Dooku it would be in his interest to make sure that Dooku prevails in his war with the republic otherwise things might go bad for Jango. So he would have reason to tell Dooku about the army. At least the jedi could figure that something like this could happen even if they do not conclude that Dooku was this tyrannus person.

"Except here's the thing. The Jedi think that the Clone Army was created after Sifo-Dyas was killed. That's not the case, as they come to discover. They are lead to believe that Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a Clone Army, before his death. Such a thing is possible. Do you or do you not deny it? Dooku left after Sifo-Dyas was killed. "

Where in the films do they conclude this? In AotC Obi-Wan says that the order was placed almost ten years ago and that he was under the impression that Sifo-Dyas was killed before that, neither Yoda nor Mace correct him on this so the conclusion is that Sifo-Dyas was killed over ten years ago and was therefore dead when the order was made. Nothing in that film nor in RotS gives any hint that the jedi were wrong about this and that Sifo-Dyas could in fact have placed the order. Also Jango says that he was not hired by Sifo-Dyas or even a jedi, just some person called Tyrannus.
Even if Obi-Wan would view some if what Jango says with some suspicion what Jango says throws further doubt that is was Sifo-Dyas that ordered the clones.

So from what is revealed in AotC the jedi would know that Sifo-Dyas could not have placed the order as he was dead so then who? They also know that a jedi have erased the Kamino system from their records, was this done by the same person who ordered the clones, most likely, so who then?

Some part of this would be very easy to investigate, they could take pictures of Sifo-Dyas to Kamino and ask, ?was this the person who ordered the clones?? They could also look at documents or pictures that the Kamino have of this order.
Nothing like this is hinted at in the films so it is unclear if the jedi did anything.

But this lack of action is ty

 

This is a pretty interesting thread, i dont know where it's going - maybe to a plot hole or maybe not. I'm just trying to get it straight in my mind. Dooku is definitely implicated to some degree with Gunray and the Seperatists. That means Dooku is somewhat linked to Jango Fett and assassination attempts on Padme. By the end of AotC, Dooku is a known Sith by all jedi and probably blamed for most of the strangeness going on.

Nordom
So from what is revealed in AotC the jedi would know that Sifo-Dyas could not have placed the order as he was dead so then who? They also know that a jedi have erased the Kamino system from their records, was this done by the same person who ordered the clones, most likely, so who then?

Nordom this makes me think of Yoda at the end of AotC when he allows Dooku to escape. If Yoda thought Dooku was the Sith master, he might've sacrificed Obi-Wan and Anakin to end the war. Yoda probably realized that Dooku was either an Sith apprentice or a weak Sith master.

Also, clones are clones. They're raised to follow military orders, whether it be General Kenobi one day or Darth Vader the next. So it doesn't really matter who ordered them, but who leads them. Yoda was in a pinch and the clones saved a lot of jedi on Geonosis. The only real danger is Palpatine, who can also give orders and who the jedi never suspect to be a sith lord.

 

Nute didn't ask Jango, because he is not aware that Jango is on Geonosis. Nor does he know how to contact him. Dooku does. This is the kind of thing that happens when you hire a hitman. One person meets with the assassin to discuss things. The client meets with the middleman to avoid being caught in a trap by a rival, the target's associates or law enforcement.

Yes, but as pointed out, Obi-wan doesn't name Dooku as being in on it. He only indicates Nute himself. No one else. Doesn't make him stupid. Just means that he is not looking at the bigger picture.

Obi-wan doesn't know what Jango may or may not have told Dooku. Nor is there no solid proof that Jango works for Dooku.

Jango knows that Dooku wanted the Clone Army. What for isn't any of his buisness. His buisness was to not get caught in connection to the assassination attempts. Obi-wan was going to arrest him for that and that alone. He only went to Geonosis under orders so that the Clone Wars could start.

Key word here, Obi-wan and the Council both assume that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the Clone Army was made. They have no proof of what the Jedi Master did in his final days, before being killed. You know, it is entirely possible that the order was made before he died. Quite logical, don't you think?

Gee, ever heard of having a partner in crime?!

 

you say there is no solid proof jengo works for dooku and i agree.

however there is more proof, or i should say the evidence points much more readily in the direction of jengo working for dooku than it does for jengo working for nute.

is this stand supported by a book or something or is it just how you see it?

 

No, I'm just looking at it from Obi-wan's point of view. I'm just pointing out how one could assume incorrectly about these things. The reason being that in real life, police and other law enforcement agencies do make these kinds of assumptions. That doesn't make them incompetent at all. It just means that it is easy to get distracted or to miss something that should be so obvious. I know that in the story, Dooku was Jango's employer in many things. Just as Nute was for the assassination attempts. I'm just saying, let's look at this from a different angle. Not as a fan saying, "Idiot he's right there". But as a person would could easily make the wrong conclusions.

 

I think one of the flaws of the Jedi is that they are not willing to go back on something. Maybe after the desperate use of the Clones they should have reevaluted the situation. If they reevaluated and realized that this Clone thing was a bad idea, they would have to admit to being wrong......not a strong suit of the Jedi. There was no "Padme, wow, you were right about Dooku". "Qui-Gon was wise to trust his instincts and believe that he had encountered a Sith". "We are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. We CANNOT openly lead these troops into battle." "Perhaps it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished. If inform the Senate, multiply our advesaries will." "Dooku told Obi-Wan the Truth! The Senate is under the control of a Sith Lord!" "I guess our Archives ARE incomplete. We shall add Kamino at once"...... The Jedi made a lot of poor choices/statements that they never really owned up to. Granted I don't think any of these things would make terribly good lines of dialog, but they were really never even inferred. When the Jedi chose to do/think something, it was RIGHT.

Carnage

 

How would Obi-Wan conclude that Nute does not know that Jango is on Geonosis? Obi-Wan knows that Jango is on Geonosis and has been there for at least several hours. If Jango worked for Nute it would have been ample time for Jango to report to Nute. As Obi-Wan hears, Nute did not know what had happened to Padme instead he asked Dooku and told Dooku that he will not sign any treaty until she is. Dooku simply assured Nute that he was a man of his word. All this very clearly indicate that Jango does not work directly for Nute but rather that Nute told Dooku what he wanted, Padme killed, and Dooku promised to take care of it and then he in turn assigned Jango to the job.

Lets take an example, person A wants person B dead. He contacts a local mob boss and says "I want this person eliminated" the mob boss says "No problem" and says his price and person A agrees. The mob boss then gets a hitman and tells him/her what to do. So the hitman works for the mob boss but person A is behind it all as he is the one that wants person B dead.

First off, Obi-Wan saying that Nute is behind it is correct, he is the one that wants Padme dead so he is the reason why Jango tried to kill Padme. But you seem to assume that Obi-Wan for some reason think that Jango works directly for Nute and that Dooku just gave Nute Jangos number or something like that. This is not a logical conclusion based on what Obi-Wan knows and if he does think this then he is dumb.

Jango is on Geonosis and would have been able to inform Nute about the situation with Padme, he did not. Nute instead asks Dooku and reminds him of their deal, Padmes death for the TF's help, and Dooku says that he will keep his word. Obi-Wan knows that someone tried to kill Padme and this person is Jango, he also hears what Nute and Dooku are saying and put those together gives this: Nute wants Padme dead and Dooku wants the TF to sign a treaty, Nute asks for Padmes head in exchange for the treaty and Dooku agrees. He then gets someone for the job, in this case Jango.
So Obi-Wan would be able to conclude that Jango does indeed work for Dooku, if he does not then he is very dumb. There is nothing that suggests that Jango works for Nute as Nute talks to Dooku, not Jango.

Yes there is as Nute asks Dooku and not Jango despite that Jango is on Geonosis, also see above.

But there is nothing in either AotC or RotS that suggets that the jedi were wrong in their belief that Sifo-Dyas was dead before the order was made and it would not be hard to find that out.
Say that Sifo-Dyas was killed Jan 1 1996 and the order was made April 10 1996, then you would know that Sifo-Dyas could not have made the order. You assume that it was possible for Sifo-Dyas to order the clones despite what is said in the films and you have no proof of this.

We are told that the jedi belive that Sifo-Dyas was dead when the order was made thus he could not have done it. The question in this thread was why

 

Etiher way, only Nute is implicated. Not Dooku. Which means that Obi-wan would've walked away with Jango and Nute, if he could. And would leave Dooku to the Republic.

Again, it does not make one dumb. It just means that he's too focused on the villian he knows, versus the one he doesn't know.

Or maybe he didn't go contact Nute. In his point of view, he doesn't know much. He just knows that he was seen flying there.

For all one can conclude, he could be just reassuring Nute that Jango will get it done.

That's supposition. Heresay. Not enough to take to the bank.

 

But initially there should have been a much better investigation done before using them.

I've been so damn out of the loop these past two weeks that I appologize for the extreme tardiness of my reply.

Anyway, I agree with you there. There should have been more research. But as has probably been stated already, Palpatine made sure the Clone Wars swept everybody up as quickly as possible.
Keeping in mind the Kaminoans were clearly out of the loop and their only other leads were either decapitated or on the other side of the war.

My whole initial argument was that the Jedi had no reason not to trust the clones just because they came from Jango.
There were plenty of other reasons. Best one I've seen and never thought of was that they started to know Palpatine was a rotten apple, yet here he was in control of a massive army.
But then, I suppose as soon as they knew for certain he was the bad guy, the only witnesses were dead or a new Sith.
And I suppose if they stopped fighting, they could be labeled as traitors and killed on the spot quite justifiably.

Pull the wool over your victims' eyes and then push them into an escalating situation blind. Seemed to work I suppose.

 

Exactly. Kenobi could figure this out. He's not stupid.

 

Sinister when you resorted to this as an answer you're flat out reaching to support a possition that has been totally refuted:

"For all one can conclude, he could be just reassuring Nute that Jango will get it done."

no he's not, the words and tone don't even begin to suggest that.

I would like to see anyone else who agrees with your interpretation of that piece of dialogue being seen that way.

there is a clear relationship between the mysterious "sith lord" known since TPM, Nute Gunray, Count Dooku clearly a Sith post Geonosis, Jengo and the clone army.

the point is that the Jedi ignored this relationship and trusted the clones without question, i can accept they were desperate at Geonosis, i can accept that they grew to trust them, i cannot accept that they did so blindly.

it's foolish to do so.

this is the second point where the GFFA is just unbelievably small for your theory to hold up.

there is no way jengo being the assasin hired to kill padme and the template for the republic army can be a coincidence in a galaxy that big with trillions and trillions of people and thousands of inhabited worlds.

the odds are beyond my imagination, and far to remote for a jedi with 3 brain cells to rub together not to recognize the relationship, Kenobi is smarter than that.

the other spot the GFFA is too small is yoda knowing chewie /groan.