How Much Did The Jedi Cause Their Own Downfall?

When did this happen?

 

Which part?

Their pledge of maintaining peace?
Their leading an enormous war?
Their killing of millions of sentient beings?
Those millions of beings being sentient?

 

Sorry, the sentience beings part. Most of the beings killed were not sentient, clones and droids.

If you believe the clones are sentient, we've been told there was only three million of them. They all didn't die, but even if they did, is three million casualties (that nobody cares about) that bad for a galactic war? There was an estimated 40-70 million deaths in World War II alone.

 

It is not a slippery slope at all. In fact it is a very firm and solid platform to stand on compared to the sand built foundations of the republic. The Jedi do nothing about the Trade Federation Invading and committing genocide on a planet. Qui Gon makes it clear that they are only there to protect her and not to fight a war. Yet they know the Trade Federation have invaded and are killing hundreds of people. The Jedi should be brave enough to condemn the Republic and refuse to be part of such an organisation unless they changed.

Serving the Force is the best way to serve the people. Life makes the Force stronger and Anakin points out compassion is essential for a Jedi. The Jedi should never have become so tied down to any government, that they had to fight a war on their behalf. Doing everything possible to stop slavery world wide should have been something the Jedi focused on, instead they work with the Hutts (according to the Clone War Series). The Jedi were the Republics elite guard rather than an ancient, benevolent order.

 

The Hutts control many sections of space. Angering them needlessly would be unwise. And they should condemn the Republic? Well, goodbye Jedi Order. Instantly, they would be outlawed. The Republic would not allow them on any world and they would be hunted wherever they went. As for ending slavery - slavery is not a major occurrence in the Republic itself. The problem with the Jedi is that they don't play politics. They can't simply be wandering Robin Hoods because a.) They have no power base amongst either the Senate or the people b.) They have no money and c.) They are rather small in number. This following the Force garbage is for children. Simply leaving the Republic would render them impotent, therefore unable to change anything in the Outer Rim. Stalwart idealism helps no one.

 

Sorry, the sentience beings part. Most of the beings killed were not sentient, clones and droids.

I'm assuming that a lot of other people were killed in the crossfire between the two armies as well. Just because we didn't actually see civilians die at Chrisophsis or Ryloth, for example, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

If you believe the clones are sentient, we've been told there was only three million of them. They all didn't die, but even if they did, is three million casualties (that nobody cares about) that bad for a galactic war?

"That nobody cares about"? That's pretty cold. Does a casualty only count if you care about it?

I think we see plenty of evidence for the sentience of the clones.

 

So in the end the Jedi are concerned more about holding onto to their own power. What's the point of having high ideals if you plan to break them at every opportunity. The way things were in the Republic the Jedi were not helping people much eithe

 

And who would donate? It takes billions to keep that massive Temple running. Then there's the question of maintaining a central authority. How would all the Knights be kept in line?

What should have been done was for the Republic to have its own order of Force users to keep the Jedi in check, like an IA division. The Jedi, in turn, keep this Republic force order in check, like their IA. The politicking would keep them from being able to amass enough power to seriously challenge any sort of power structure.

 

They'd be signing their own obituaries if they turned against the Republic. PalpSidious will use this act against the Jedi by tricking the Senate into believing that the Jedi are siding with the Seperatists which will lead to them approving of his Order 66 massacre against the Jedi. No matter what the Jedi does, they were screwed anyway so the blame for their downfall lies squarely on PalpSidious.

 

But... isn't that what happened anyway?

 

Clones are obviously sentient.

 

There's a difference between willfully doing it and it happening due to the decisions of another. If the Jedi were outlaws from the start, they would be helping very few people.

 

Obviously I disagree.

 

I'm not talking about myself, from I've seen/read I think most people in the galaxy don't care about the clone troopers.

 

"Most people" in South Carolina in 1850 didn't care about black people being forced to work themselves to death in cotton fields. Did that make it okay?

 

They ended up not helping anybody anyway - wasting time, resources, and lives chopping droids in half when the real threat to the people of the galaxy was right under their nose.

 

?adjective
1.having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2.characterized by sensation and consciousness.

 

^ Yes, I'm not sure it's at all open to interpretation whether clones are sentient. They may be clones, but they are human, and therefore by definition they are sentient.

 

I would argue that the alterations in their DNA means they are no longer human.

I would also argue that those alterations robbed them of self-awareness, something I consider part of sentience.

 

Geneticists can't wait to hear this.

 

They are conscious and have the power of perception by the senses, therefore they are sentient. They are also in no way robbed of the power of self-awareness. They have merely been made "less independent" and "more docile" as Lama Su said. Completely unmodified humans are not the only beings having self-awareness. This sounds like debunked "human exclusionism" theory.

 

What do "clone genetics" have to with the Jedi wrecking themselves?

***

How much?
They only have the mirror to blame.

"Blind, we are...." -Yoda

 

We too can all claim to be sentient. Yet our societies, nations, tribes or familial groups all "program us" to behave within certain norms, to conform to expected behaviors (also known as 'laws'). Should we deviate from the norm, we will experience some form of punishment or restriction. The norms tether us, limit us, control us toward obedience.

The entire lifecycle of the Clones is accelerated or amplified from the normal 'human' experience. So too is it with their punishment and reward system. It is more elegantly programmed, but no different from what the rest of a 'normal' society feels or experiences.

Lacking families, norms and rules are efficiently 'programmed,' installed instead of 'experienced.' When a parent or an elder commands us, or a spouse or significant other implores us, we are conditioned to comply. So too are the clones, only by more efficient design in lieu of a longer-term societal experience.

The clones are us -- we the sheeple!

 

I think they are partly to do with their own downfall due to the flaws within their Order. This was further amplified by the ?Dark Shroud? which causes imbalance (and, in my opinion, caused by the Sith). Essentially the Jedi have always had underlying flaws within their Order which lay fairly dormant for the majority of their history. It is only until the Dark Shroud grows because of the ever increasing influence and exploitation of the Sith that the flaws being to show themselves. Just like corruption grows in the Senate the Jedi?s flaws being to make themselves more prominent. This grows to the extent to when they are drawn into a war which further begins to eclipse the light of the Jedi.

In my opinion Anakin had a choice to destroy the Sith in ROTS and restore balance. I believe the Jedi would have then gone under a reformation process under the teaching of Qui-Gon through Yoda; this would have resulted in a more balanced Order. Instead the Jedi are destroyed and Anakin eventually fulfils the prophecy in ROTJ? which leaves Luke to rebuild the Order under a ?balanced? Living Force template, which corrects many flaws of the old Order. So essentially I think Anakin took the long way round?

So I don?t think they necessarily caused their own downfall as much as they were victims of their flaws and the growing instability in the Force. Their inability to see the flaws in their order (as pointed out by Qui-Gon) was, if anything, the Jedi?s actions causing their fall?


Regarding whether the clones are sentient, I think it is obvious that they are. Sentient isn?t obedience but rather ones ability to actual have a consciousness and to think creatively. I think it is obvious the clones are sentient.

 

If there's one thing I don't understand, why was Anakin given to Obi-Wan of all people to be trained?

Excluding the Original Trilogy, wouldn't it make sense to pair up Anakin with a seasoned knight or master who could deal with Anakin's situation ( Living a normal life, having attachments to family and friends) Then a Padawan who barely finished his trials and was promoted?