Saga How Powerful is Darth Plagueis? Did he have more potential than Midichlorian Manipulation?

I apologize if this thread will be locked or spited for F.I.T.S (Force-Induced-Trollinating-Stupidity) but I came to wondering then with Darth Plagueis - just how Powerful is he? I mean in the EU and Canon he's described being Powerful ... VERY POWERFUL by Palpatine himself in the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise in ROTS; we know that and we seen that ... but in the 2012 novel on Darth Plagueis in the EU its expanded on his background being more than just a Powerful Muun Sith Lord or a Powerful Sith Scholar of the Midichlorians ... and the fact that Darth Plagueis did train Palpatine ... and the fact surely Palpatine wasn't just 'implying' Darth Plagueis was 'so Powerful and so Wise ... he could even influence Midichlorians and create ... LIFE...' and the smile Palpatine had on his face - surely indicating he did and must have learned quite a bit from the venerable Muun Sith Scholar who surely wasn't just a Powerful Sith Scholar but also had formidable Force Powers right? Given the Darth Plagueis novel described his feats at times and whilst not much of a Lightsaber duelist - he more than made-up for it with his incredible amounts of Force-Powers ... and the fact he survived the nasty incidents (afterall he would have been dead sooner than later if he wasn't so Powerful eh?) with the Maladian Assassins where he applied Teras Kazi plus the Force Scream which obliterated them - and whilst it cost him a bloodied lower jaw but he did apply Midichlorian Manipulation to survive it and he managed to partially regrow the damage ...

But I wondered - is he even MORE powerful than expected and could he have had even MORE potential than usual ... could he have done even crazier or more esoteric things in the Force or had some potential that even Palpatine didn't know despite claiming he 'learned everything he knew about the Force from Darth Plagueis?' ...

I mean suppose Darth Plagueis went against Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tinn and Agen Kolar - could he have still done just as well as Palpatine? Well - Lightsaber skills he may not be as tuned or into it but likewise he has incredible amounts of prowess with the Force ... and he clearly had undeniable Powers going by the Darth Plagueis novel and on what he accomplished ...

Given:

1.) He did train Palpatine to a high standard as a Sith Lord ...I mean when Palpatine was desperate to get away from House Palpatine - Darth Plagueis kinda did the 'DO WHAT MUST BE DONE! SHOW NO MERCY!' to Palpatine - by telling him how he must do whatever it took ... kinda influential to Palpatine in the long run eh on his famous catch-phrase...and goading Palpatine to killing his family in cold cold blood at just the age of 17 years old ...
1.1.) Palpatine being taught 'everything he knew about the Force...' and how Darth Plagueis for starters - he made Palpatine endure the 'naked, frigid cold of Mygeeto' with practically no protection, no food, no water, no sleep and no respite ... and how Darth Plagueis too subjected Palpatine at times to intense training but also plenty of lectures and knowledge about Ancient Sith and Ancient Sith History; given at one point Darth Plagueis remarked to Palpatine of hidden relics in Sith Temples on Dromund Kaas or the moons of Yavin and Palpatine rather snidely remarked 'then why haven't we visited such places Master?' and Darth Plagueis sharply scolded Palpatine that he was 'impatient and perhaps only wished to be an academic and yet did not appreciate Sith Scholarly History...' and how Darth Plagueis explained to Palpatine that it was patience they needed to work on the Sith Grand Scheme set by Darth Bane ... or where Darth Plagueis in one point applied Sith Lightning and explained to Palpatine the need to harness the Power of the Dark Side and that it was like an animal needing to be tamed yet the animal itself was naturally untamed ... and that Sith reject Compassion and accept Consequence and that a True Sith Embraces the Dark Side ... from the start!
2.) He did influence the fate of the Galaxy ...
3.) He did have 'resentment' to the Rule of Two and how he didn't have a positive view on Ancient Sith Lords - as I had mentioned how Darth Plagueis saw him and Palpatine as 'architects of the future ...' and not butchers ... no doubt more than implying he was clearly going on a new generation of Sith Lords compared to thugs and mob-mentality minded Sith and Massassi from Ancient times in Korriban ...
4.) How he helped Palpatine with his plans by providing funds, resources, 'dirty work' and manipulation ...
5.) Midichlorian Manipulation ... enough said ...

 

I don't think he'd be as good with a lightsaber. Near the start when he duels Darth Venamis, he says that he prefers to use the force, and only carries his saber as a formality.

 

He does completely different things with the Force compared to most Sith we've seen, he's not a combat monster (though not incompetent by any means) he's more subtle than most. He's almost a Sith Qui-Gonn, looking at the Force as having sentience and agency of its own, the main difference being that as a Sith he wants to usurp that power instead of serve it. The likes of Yoda, Mace or even Obi-Wan would probably handle him in a fight without much difficulty but managing to even trap him in a position where he HAS to fight would be the really hard part.

 

True - Darth Plagueis's Lightsaber skills are a little ho-hum ... yet interesting how he manages to train Palpatine to a high standard and Palpatine was able to display incredible and formidable and extremely aggressive and Powerful Lightsaber skills one way or another in the Canon and EU (and putting aside who won with Mace Windu's Vaapad - considering if Palpatine downright sucked at it - wouldn't he have been dead sooner eh?)

BUT - what about overall - an all out FORCE battle and such? How would Darth Plagueis have fared against Mace Windu or Obi-Wan Kenobi or the other Jedi High Council Members save for Master Yoda? I mean Darth Plagueis's skills really lie in his Force Powers correct? I mean how would he fare then on such? Or would Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu still take it but not so easily? I mean afterall Darth Plagueis trained Palpatine - and Darth Plagueis - consider why didn't Palpatine bother to duel Darth Plagueis in an all-out Force duel and yet just made him punch drunk in the novel and then 'zapped him to sleep' for good all the whilst more taunting him ...

Or how far - what tier do you reckon Darth Plagueis would be overall compared to the Jedi High Council? Could he still take on Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, Kit Fisto - whom were among the finest Jedi in their generations and for their caliber? Or what about even Darth Plagueis against Count Dooku in an all out battle?

 

Plus, didn't in the novel at one point - not long after Palpatine murdered House Palpatine in cold blood - Palpatine was angry at one point when he realized at times he was manipulated and played abit by Darth Plagueis - and he felt this rage but Darth Plagueis rather coldly and coolly warned him 'careful boy ... YOU ARE NOT the only one in this room with the Power to Kill...' as if implying that Darth Plagueis had more than several ways to kill with the Dark Side of the Force ... and how Darth Plagueis too could hide his identity as a wealthy Munn called Hego Damask ... and how Darth Plagueis was able trick a young Palpatine on Mygeeto one time when Palpatine was practically at his wits end and in desperation he pounced on Darth Plagueis only to realize that was just an illusion ... and all the whilst Darth Plagueis was sitting above him and taunting him and admonishing him in his training how Palpatine needed to 'put a lot more effort into his training if he wanted to become a Powerful Sith...'

Although ... other than the Force Scream and Teras Kazi against the Maladian Assassins whilst being wounded ...and training Palpatine to a high standard... surely that's not to be looked down eh? But then again it would have been nice to have a few more feats with Darth Plagueis now and then eh? Given we know he wasn't a very keen Lightsaber duelist which is abit of a liability but his Force Powers are certainly something not to look down on ...

 

The way Plagueis operated he'd be very unlikely to actually engage the likes of Mace personally in the first place - it's more his style to find out when and where Mace is going to be at his most vulnerable (relatively speaking of course) and then tell young Boba Fett this crucial information (preferably through a whole chain of cut-outs.) In terms of physical power he's got to be up there with the likes of the Council but he sees power in terms of influence and manipulation, and in that sense he's arguably even MORE powerful - mostly because the Jedi have to obey certain rules and regulations, a Sith does not (save for possibly the Rule Of Two, which he intends to abolish anyway.)

 

Ah! Indeed - given the fact the Sith for the matter - whilst often angry, selfish and violent if not also greedy - the fact how the Sith can have access without reservations to Force Powers that normally would be discouraged by the Jedi Order by default given:

1.) Force Lightning - whilst a Jedi 'can produce a facsimile' the fact Darth Plagueis dismissed that as anything passable as Sith Lightning and that Force Lightning for the matter is incredibly intense and demands rejection of compassion ... something which the Jedi hold on to ...
2.) Form VII Juyo ... and well Vaapad given no doubt the fact surely Count Dooku would have had a working knowledge of it or be able to study enough of it without being 100% helpless
3.) Force Rage, Force Scream and Force Crush ...

 

Those too. But I actually meant ethical and moral rules more than anything (admittedly there is some overlap with the Force powers being linked to emotional state) but I can't imagine most Jedi being down with the kind of underhand backstabbing and double-crossing that Plagueis doles out on a regular basis. He also has indirect control over a lot of people through his financial power, if certain people don't do what he wants them to do then they will find their loans called in and their rates doubled before they can blink - a Jedi wouldn't ever do anything similar.

Plagueis is different to Sidious in that he seems to think using the Force for such things as shooting lightning from your fingers or choking someone with a wave of your hand is pretty childish and short-sighted. He operates on an entirely higher level - trying to actually direct the Force itself as a sentient being of some kind with a will of its own and forcing it (pun accidental, sorry) down another route. The best example is that as per the old Legends canon, all the time Yoda and the rest of the Council were floundering about muttering about how the Dark Side clouded everything, that WASN'T coincidence. Plagueis had deliberately and intentionally caused that, and not one Jedi ever seemed to realise it was possible. THAT is how powerful he is in terms of influence. On the other hand, given his few combat feats if Mace or Yoda worked out what had happened, marched up to his latest hidey-hole and engaged him in a duel, he'd probably be fricassee of Sith within a short while... though keeping him dead would be the real challenge.

 

The major question is why Palpatine did not want to have a duel with Plagueis and instead killed him when he was weak. In the novel, its written that the darkside whispered to Palpatine to take Plagueis down. When the darkside itself whispered to Palpatine to take Plagueis down when he was weak, it could mean only 2 things.
1. Plagueis was super powerful to directly meet in a duel.
2. Plagueis made the darkside whisper.
Either of this means Plagueis is uber powerful. Even though it is non-canon, canon Plagueis is so powerful as described by Palpatine himself. And Palpatine says to "to cheat death, only one has achieved and together we can discover the secret". Clearly Palpatine does not know about it. So if Plagueis is there, he will be a badass villain Many SW fans want him as main villain, including me.

 

Yeah, I think it says a good bit about his power that Palpatine waited until his master slept for the first time in 20 years and was vulnerable rather than try to take him out in an actual head-to-head fight. I remember in the novel where Palpatine can see Plagueis is trying to manipulate the midichlorians while he is killing him. Before that happened Plagueis saw Anakin's future and realized he had inadvertently brought about the doom of the Sith so it would make sense that he planned a scenario where he lets Palpatine believe he killed him and has been waiting in the shadows ever since.

 

Alas, hence Darth Plagueis SURELY wasn't just 'by name and just reputation' a Powerful Sith Scholar and the fact he actually could apply his Powers to incredible amounts of Force Potential ...as in the novel the Maladian Assassin attack - where he created a deadly and nasty Force Scream ... and the Teras Kazi martial arts skills he applied ...

Plus the fact Darth Plagueis afterall he did train Palpatine one way or another to a high standard no doubt (let's see - forcing him at first to stand naked cold and without food, water, sleep or luxuries on the frigid naked cold wastes of Mygeeto - and where Darth Plagueis claimed at the young age of 8 he was already able to venture out there in pretty light clothing or pretty much at times being able to 'easily bore Palpatine (if he wanted to) with lectures about Ancient Sith Lords and their achievements ... practically training Palpatine to be an architect of the future - so not a butcher of a feral thug or beast like Ancient mob-mentality minded Korriban Sith but rather combining both Power and Scholarly Intelligence)... and he did help Palpatine quite a bit ... and using his Powers and resources at his disposal ... and indeed in the long run manipulating all practically as described in the novel where he was noted being comformatable and home as if he were in a library in the 'seediest cantinas or alleys of cities' to pretty much secret groups and also public official areas ...

At one point too Darth Plagueis also when Palpatine was practically similar to Anakin in a moment when Palpatine had the aura of the Dark Side seething in him and he was somewhat agitated and angry how Darth Plagueis somewhat 'manipulated him' and Darth Plagueis coldly remarked 'CAREFUL ... BOY ... YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE IN THIS ROOM WITH THE POWER TO KILL...' implying that Darth Plagueis then could have had even more potential unknown Powers of the Dark Side of the Force not just esoteric that could have done nasty nasty things ...

Oh and I dunno if this was a testament or not but when Darth Plagueis - in the novel on the day he met Palpatine who was still just 17 he remarked 'in your human years I would be over 100...' and surely given Muuns are long-lived but yet Darth Plagueis for the matter is a Powerful Muun Sith Scholar and the fact how he had incredible potential for Midichlorian Manipulation and when he was still a young Sith Apprentice to Darth Plagueis - surely then its implying that Darth Plagueis even after youth or his prime then or at his prime he would have had incredible amounts of Force Power then ...

Really? I thought it was more of the Lightsaber duels for sure Darth Plagueis didn't give much consideration to - but with Force Powers he still had importance held on it - given Lightsabers aren't Darth Plagueis's thing but still ...otherwise surely if Darth Plagueis only focused on study and also just 'laboratory work' he might as well have been dead sooner than later in the Maladian Assassin attack eh?

But um - how does Mace Windu's Force Powers (so not Lightsaber duelling) compare to Darth Plagueis's Force Powers? I mean Mace Windu has Shatter-point ... but on the other hand he doesn't have probably anywhere near the level of knowledge of Arcane Sith Powers and Rituals or Midichlorian Manipulation ...

On a side note haha - whenever I write anything about Darth Plagueis or even this post - I always look at my Darth Plagueis action figure on my desk hehe ... he was a pretty rare and hard to get figure!

 

Plagueis seems to me the kind of person who would see resorting to such crudity as a duel face-to-face to settle the fate of the galaxy as a failure of his plans. In the novel the very few times he actually fought in person he handled himself competently but he wasn't the one who set out to engage in the fight - he was defending himself. The kind of power he looks for is the power where you can control someone's destiny and their will without having to be there in person. His midichlorian manipulation for example isn't a tremendous amount of use when Mace Windu is up in your face busting out the vaapad - it doesn't work like that, it's not a combat skill.

Mace is actually perhaps the one Jedi who would have had a realistic chance at untangling Plagueis' plan at all because of his shatterpoint sensitivity- IF he realised there was one person behind so much and IF he could get his head around the scale and depth of the scheme then he could spot the weak point. Those are two very big ifs though.

 

Hello again!

Ah true - but surely Midichlorian Manipulation - if given time - although I doubt it - Darth Plagueis could recover and regenerate to a degree as he was able to partially regenerate after the severe bloodied injuries he suffered from the Maladian Assassination although it did take time ...

I was meaning more like suppose in terms of Force Powers - so like Force Crush, Force Rage, Force Augmented Strength or just unleashing an incredible amount of Force Powers and such - how would Mace Windu's other Force Powers compare and such really - and whilst we know from the novel Darth Plagueis could also apply Sith Lightning ... and given if even Mace Windu when subject to a full raw barrage was far from invulnerable to it ... or odds are even if Mace Windu wins an all out Force battle against Darth Plagueis - and if Darth Plagueis was forced on the defensive and such - it won't be so easy and that Mace Windu may still suffer severe injuries or be severely exhausted by the duel and such? Given he did have to exert some effort with Vaapad to help combat Palpatine's Sith Lightning and yet he didn't or rather he couldn't even apply Tutaminis when subject to a full raw angry Sith Lightning barrage ... although it is understandable he had his arm sliced off ...

 

If it ever came down to a one on one, last man standing, winner takes all lightsaber duel between Mace Windu and Darth Plagueis... Windu would win. If he could resist and/or match Sidious' force abilities in a combat situation then he could do the same for Plagueis, based on what evidence we have. Plagueis has nothing to suggest he's a match for Windu in combat terms, and Windu is basically THE great fighter of the order. If for some reason the two of them ended up in an arena duelling for the fate of the galaxy, Windu would triumph and probably pretty quickly.

BUT for it to get to that point, Plagueis would already have lost anyway, because he just doesn't operate on a purely physical level anymore. That's what makes him so interesting but also frustrating to try and work out in terms of sheer power. The other Sith we've seen all seem to take some degree of pleasure out of physical combat even if only occasionally, even ones like Sidious who prefer trickery have their moments of fighting skill. Plagueis doesn't.

The best comparison I can actually think of is actually one of the Wizards from Tolkien, like Gandalf. In terms of sheer power and influence he's on another level to most characters, but its not the kind of power you can just draw on in a brawl - they can be (physically) killed by beings on a much lower level, though not without a lot of luck.

 

Hello again! On a side note - what about Count Dooku against Darth Plagueis OR for the matter would you say even a mid-tier Jedi or a even a Jedi Knight or Padawan for the matter could already present a challenge in a duel and such against Darth Plagueis already and only his Force Powers would really turn the tide in a sense? Given the Maladian Assassins was one thing but then again Maladian Assassins are not Mace Windu nor are they Force-Sensitive ...

 

Not a mid-tier no, definitely not some Padawan or new knight just graduated - Plagueis managed to beat Venamis when taken by surprise and Sidious had to wait his time and certainly respected and feared Plagueis' power even if he was confident of beating him, so he's not a wimp by any measure. I would say that any given Jedi Master would have had a decent chance in a fair fight, but no Sith ever fights fair, but only Masters on the level of Yoda or Windu would be confident they definitely WOULD beat him, instead of merely being confident they COULD, if it came to it. Obi-Wan is probably the lowest 'ranked' character in terms of crude power levels I would back to beat Plagueis in a duel. But again, I still don't think a duel is Plagueis playing to his strengths and if he specifically set himself to beating any individual Master he would do it indirectly and by proxy, not in person.

 

I never thought about that. He seems to be (according to Wookieepedia) the guy who sits around in a cave using the force to manipulate things. Kind of like Yoda in episode 5. But to be honest, if he does, it shouldn't be too hard to track him down. Appearently he's very powerful and controls a lot of things, and that means that Jedi (or some technical equipment) could track down a big source of The Force. I mean, they can sence fluxuations happening in the force other star systems further away, as shown in Episode 3. And they can sence sources of the Dark Side in people, so if he's that powerful, couldn't they sence his position? This might seem like a stupid question, but I'm not that big of a Star Wars nerd/pro (whatever you want to call it), but I have the basic hang of it.

 

Well Yoda and Mace couldn't sense Palpatine sitting across the table, so I don't think being detected is a problem for Plagueis.

Side Note: Why do we refer to some sith lords as Vader, or Maul, but we use Palpatine and Dooku as well? Which is more correct?

 

@ Brixman well whether because of his experiments or a natural effect, the Dark Side seems to be literally dark as well as metaphorically and acts as something of a cloud. Several times Plagueis mentions it being a shroud and Palpatine talks to the Council plenty of times without them noticing he's the most powerful Sith in galactic history, so it does seem to have a natural disguising effect somehow.

 

That's true. It could also be an ability, both seeing as Plagueis was Sidious' mentor, and seeing as some of the jedi like Yoda and Windu can sense the dark side in Anakin, but not in Palpatine.

 

That's true. Palpatine is rarely refered to as Sidious as it is his sith title, and he's got a secret identity as a polititian. Darth Maul we never got to know his name, and as everything not-Lucasarts regarding Star Wars is now non-canon we probably never will. But no one calls Vader Anakin, which is strange. And also very few people call Dooku Darth Tyranus, his sith lord title, not even in the movies themselves.

Sorry for going off topic but I just wanted to respond to this.

 

Plenty call him just "Tyranus" though. Palpatine calls him "Lord Tyranus" (just as Vader is sometimes called Lord Vader).

I think the newcanon comic Son of Dathomir may have clarified that Maul was called that by Talzin before he was handed over to Sidious.

 

Least imaginative Sith name ever.

Talzin: So his name is Maul... how about Darth Maul!
Sidious: Brilliant!

 

Could have been worse...

Talzin: His name is Bob... how about Darth Bob?
Sidious: Brilliant!

 

I don't think Plagueis to be the most powerful or anything, and he didn't seem like he had much else to offer as a Sith, but he was clever and innovative. I do think his work with influencing the midiclorians had some great potential. I thought it was perceptive of him to focus his efforts in that area of using the darkside-something unprecedented (at least from what I remember-and as far as current canon), something well worth a Sith lord's time.